------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There has been a lot of discussion by players lately about poor raid loot drop rates leading players to only run the raids on normal for the 20^th reward lists. This has led to us having internal discussions as well. Instead of continuing to have extremely low drop rates in the end reward chests for raids, we are planning to have significantly better chances going forward in most instances. Compared to The Mark of Death raid released last update, new raids would be around 6x more likely to drop a named item on Normal and 6x more likely to drop a named item on Elite (Elite is 3x as likely to drop an item as compared to Normal). As another frame of reference, raid named item drop rates would be closer to what the U23 quest drop rates are currently. To go along with that, we are planning to change how 20^th reward lists work. Instead of having a choice at all items from the Raid, the 20^th reward will be one randomly selected raid item. Ingredients and other special types of items would generally be handled separately from this change. We are also considering going back and retroactively adjusting most older raids to this same system. We understand this could be controversial so we wanted to bring it up as a discussion. The other option would be to leave existing raids as they currently are, and only do this for new raids with our concern being the inconsistency this would bring to how different raids function. Thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Hero Andoris ------------------------------------------------------------------------ While I like the out of the box thinking.. I don't like this approach. Honestly, the drop rates on Mark of Death are fine as they are. The people that are complaining are chain running it on normal and running it while ransacked. If you run it on hard, I have been seeing somewhere around one drop every other run (1/24 chance); and on elite it is almost a drop per run (1/12 chance). Please note that some of those runs had no loot and some had 2-3 items drop.. but the averages should work out somewhere around those numbers (population size of about 80 runs across all of my toons). Increasing the drops even more, will only have the effect of shortening the life of the raid even more (people get their loot sooner); while also landing a demoralizing blow to those people that are unlucky and don't get the item they need in 20 runs only to get skunked in the 20th list. Perhaps a better solution is to have the end reward list to have a sub-set of the items (like the older raids) with maybe 1-3 items missing and then to publicize the drop rate % -- even the abstract 2x on hard; 3x on elite would give people incentive to run the higher difficulties. Also, if they knew it wasn't a guarantee (but was still very likely) to get the item they need on the 20th list.. it would encourage people to not continually run the raid on ransack, hopefully adding to the longevity of the raid, while making the 20th list still something to work towards. The real issue is the raid bypass timers. I know you guys will take a lot of grief if you change them.. but I think it needs to happen in the interest of the long term health of the game. It is simply impossible for you guys to develop content as fast as it is being consumed. A potential solution is for the Raid bypass timer to only be usable once per day, per raid. This allows it to still solve the "I forgot to turn in the raid" issue, while preventing people from running the new raid 20 times on normal in the span of 3 hours. Fixing raid bypass timers directly addresses the issue and is a lot more direct, than trying to nerf them through game mechanics. Raid bypass timers and to a lesser extent the removal of the epic quest timer, has reduced many (hardcore) players to 1 or 2 toons where they use to have 8-10. That has had a multiplicative factor on reducing LFMs (don't need to post for a Wizard for MoD, when you can just hand your buddy a bypass so he/she can bring theirs), reducing the need to grind for loot./xp (easier to level and gear 1 toon vs 8) which in turn shortens the life of content, and ultimately leads to burnout as people continually farm the same content. This is a case where giving players what they want is bad for them.. and bad for the game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Community Member Flavilandile ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post There has been a lot of discussion by players lately about poor raid loot drop rates leading players to only run the raids on normal for the 20^th reward lists. This has led to us having internal discussions as well. Instead of continuing to have extremely low drop rates in the end reward chests for raids, we are planning to have significantly better chances going forward in most instances. Compared to The Mark of Death raid released last update, new raids would be around 6x more likely to drop a named item on Normal and 6x more likely to drop a named item on Elite (Elite is 3x as likely to drop an item as compared to Normal). As another frame of reference, raid named item drop rates would be closer to what the U23 quest drop rates are currently. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I agree that there's some stuff in raids that have utterly low drop rate *glares at the Yellow Dopant and the Sword of Shadow Shard* Now since any attempt to bring that out in the open with actual values has been met with auto-ban, nobody currently knows the actual drop values, except the few that sorted it out, and they won't tell... So instead of giving us a 6* more likely would it be possible to have a percentage of chance ? The whole point is that while some raids do need to be tweaked for some items, they do not need to be tweaked for all the items... and some raids are fine as is. Typical example is Pain in the Navel... sorry Caught in the Web. The only interest to run the raid nowadays is for the Commendations... but it's way easier and way faster to run Fall of Truth.... and in Fall of Truth you are certain to get Commendations while in CitW you might get some... if you are lucky... from twice the number of chests. I never found the drop rate for Items in CiTW low... ( well now with the raider boxes the point is moot anyway ) But the Commendation drop rate is an issue. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post To go along with that, we are planning to change how 20^th reward lists work. Instead of having a choice at all items from the Raid, the 20^th reward will be one randomly selected raid item. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Hell No !!! Do not change the 20th reward.... Having to choose between all the items is a Tough Choice. Also you'll get the forum in an uproar over that.... Maybe at the Occupy Stormreach Level. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Ingredients and other special types of items would generally be handled separately from this change. We are also considering going back and retroactively adjusting most older raids to this same system. We understand this could be controversial so we wanted to bring it up as a discussion. The other option would be to leave existing raids as they currently are, and only do this for new raids with our concern being the inconsistency this would bring to how different raids function. Thoughts? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The main problem is that we have no clue of what the drop rates are... ( or maybe some of have... but as I stated they won't tell ) .... except that for some items they are low, utterly low, retarded low, high, very high, just good, ... ( choose the one you want for the relevant item ) I'll admit that I looked in the dat files and I think have a fair idea at how to find the information regarding the loot tables... but I just don't have the time to do it and get the data. ( and well I don't want to risk a perma-ban, it doesn't helps getting the time to. ) Edit : All the Timer Bypass back to back farming issue has been covered by Andoris' post. Last edited by Flavilandile 11-04-2014 at 07:24 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Community Member Micki ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I like the idea of improving the drop rates and not offering all items on 20th... BUT, only 1 item feels way way too little. For example ADQ, I know ppl who did 80 runs, not seeing a torc on the 20th, and never getting it in the chests. I thought offering all items on the reward list was a bad idea, though, as it does make things way too easy to get, just quickly do 20 and you can get any item you want. What you want to do is give players a reason to run on a higher difficulty, without making them frustrated over never getting the item they want. I like the way ADQ, VoN and Abbot work, with the end reward having a random list of items from the raid, but you are not guaranteed the item you're looking for. So, in short, I support better drop rates on higher difficulties, I don't support the end reward only offering 1 raid item. Question... will we ever see epic VoD, HoX, ToD? I currently feel there is no reason to run them, unless you're just looking for the favor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Number examples please. I want to know the % chance of gaining an item when I run the raid 20 times (a bit vague if NDA is needed) on EN/EH/EE, please. That way I can make an informed decision, as currently this seems troubling. Thanks. EDIT After thinking a few minutes about this, I see it as having a profound change on the use of raid bypass timers. The chest ransack becomes very important. The notion of doing 60+ raids in one weeks times becomes old school. This would have the effect of extending the life of end game raiding. That could be a good thing. A bit less advantage for pay to win / duplication.... PS Transition from old to new system on existing raid might be problematic? People currently working towards 20th? But again the numbers for % drop adjustment is the fine line for me. Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-04-2014 at 07:58 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Andoris* View Post The real issue is the raid bypass timers. I know you guys will take a lot of grief if you change them.. but I think it needs to happen in the interest of the long term health of the game. It is simply impossible for you guys to develop content as fast as it is being consumed. Quote Originally Posted by *Andoris* View Post A potential solution is for the Raid bypass timer to only be usable once per day, per raid. This allows it to still solve the "I forgot to turn in the raid" issue, while preventing people from running the new raid 20 times on normal in the span of 3 hours. Fixing raid bypass timers directly addresses the issue and is a lot more direct, than trying to nerf them through game mechanics. +1 Listen to Andoris, I know I am. Well said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7. The Hatchery Dandonk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hmm. Will have to think about this some. While I'd love higher drop rates in raids, taking away the 20th completion reward will make it much more of a lottery getting the right item. I agree that raid timer bypasses ought to be dialed back some. I see a lot of MoD back-to-back EN runs... over and over and over... that can't be good for the longevity of the content. Say NO to leaving d20 behind, say NO to bland game experience: say YES to scrapping the Combat Change! Furthermore, it is my opinion that crafting should not depend on build. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8. Community Member Flavilandile ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ok, as I just posted in IRC... ( and I'm expanding it ) If you want to change the 20th list so bad to raise the drop rates... Make it a random choice of the whole list... that's how chain rewards like STK, Co6, Threnal, ... works IIRC. They display about 50%ish of the named loot (rolled randomly) along with some random ( BtC ) loot ( with the ML lowered a lot before the Ghostbanning of Loot ). That way you gives us a decent chance to get what we want on 20th run and you also kill the full list. now you have to keep in mind that there's some Special 20th reward list items... everybody will be unhappy if an Essence of Cleansing and a Yellow Dopant doesn't shows up in the Shroud 20th List. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. The Hatchery Dandonk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Flavilandile* View Post Make it a random choice of the whole list... that's how chain rewards like STK, Co6, Threnal, ... works IIRC. They display about 50%ish of the named loot (rolled randomly) along with some random ( BtC ) loot ( with the ML lowered a lot before the Ghostbanning of Loot ). That way you gives us a decent chance to get what we want on 20th run and you also kill the full list. now you have to keep in mind that there's some Special 20th reward list items... everybody will be unhappy if an Essence of Cleansing and a Yellow Dopant doesn't shows up in the Shroud 20th List. Quote Originally Posted by *Flavilandile* View Post I agree with this. Though, perhaps, 50% is a little high since the drop rate will be so much higher. Perhaps a third of the items? Say NO to leaving d20 behind, say NO to bland game experience: say YES to scrapping the Combat Change! Furthermore, it is my opinion that crafting should not depend on build. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Put a restriction on raid timers use per raid (something like 5 per week per raid roll your own on how and when you use them) then reduce all raids timers to 1 day. Lower EN drop rates, leave EH where it is and triple EE drop rates. And use the idea of half a list on 20th but temper this with a full list on 40. This incentives not using timer bypasses at all (1 raid a day will improve this equation for those without duped timers) Incentives running on harder difficulty. Incentives not trying to do 20 EN runs in a row in one night, in fact makes it impossible. Reduces the illusion that drop rates are utterly miserable that is created when a bunch of people are ransacked and no one sees any loot drop for anyone. Oh and one other thing: no more arena beat down raids that take 7 minutes Last edited by IronClan; 11-04-2014 at 09:02 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post So, in short, I support better drop rates on higher difficulties, I don't support the end reward only offering 1 raid item. Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post The main issue we are addressing is that currently if you are after the items, the "correct" way to play is to blitz through normal to get to the 20th reward lists. If we raised the elite drop rates but left the 20th reward list in place as it currently stands, it would still be faster to run normal 20 times to get what you were after. The 20th reward lists were initially implemented due to compensate for low drop rates, so it is unlikely we would raise the drop rates but leave in the 20th reward list as it currently works. Changes to raid bypass timers are not currently in our plans. However, let's look at the thought of if you could run a Raid once per day. Let's assume there are 10 raid items and that the rate of getting 1 of the named items on elite was 33% (which is significantly above current rates). If you were looking for just 1 of the Raid items it would take you on average 30 days to get it in the end chest while running elite. So it would still be faster to do 20 runs to get the item you want, which also means running 20 times the fastest and easiest way is the most effective, so 20 runs on Normal. This highlights how much of an effect the 20th reward list has on the issue of incentives for running Elite raids, and it gets worse when you factor in the time to complete Elite and the chance of failure with running Elite. The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. – adapted from Elbert Hubbard ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 12. The Hatchery Dandonk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps 2 or 3 slots for raid items on 20th, instead? I'd love for difficulty to mean more, and see less of endless normal runs. I can't really see how that's possible unless we change 20th reward in some way. Idea (not sure if feasible): Change 20th reward to a point-based system, where higher difficulty gives more points toward a "20th reward". With made up numbers, let's say normal gives 1, hard 2 and elite 3 points per completion - and when you get 40 points, you get a "20th completion" reward. Meaning you'll have to run 20 hard runs, 40 normal ones, or 14 elite. Again, made up numbers, and no clue if it's possible to do, but what do people think? Say NO to leaving d20 behind, say NO to bland game experience: say YES to scrapping the Combat Change! Furthermore, it is my opinion that crafting should not depend on build. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 13. *Uber Uber Completionist* Deadlock Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post This highlights how much of an effect the 20th reward list has on the issue of incentives for running Elite raids, and it gets worse when you factor in the time to complete Elite and the chance of failure with running Elite. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I think this only became an issue with Raid Bypass Timers coming in and people feeling entitled to get everything immediately. The other issue I'll throw onto the table is Raid Completions being reset when you TR. Addressing this could be a nice sweetener to your overall proposals to change anything to do with Raid Completions. Using CITW as an example of bad loot - the big complaint here is that a full group can get completely skunked on EE and everyone leaves the raid telling themselves that it was a total waste of time. So increasing a % drop rate but not guaranteeing that at least one person gets something is a bad idea. If that means randomly selecting one person from the party and then guaranteeing they get at least 1 item then that's what you should do. So a bundle of proposals that include: 1. increase in loot drop rate 2. massive increase in loot drop rate on EE 3. reducing 20th completions to 1d6 items (hey why the hell not, keep the dice in it), 2d6 for 40th? 3d6 for 60th? 4. in addition to usual loot drop rates, 25% chance of an item on EN, 50% on EH and 100% on EE 5. raid completions persisting through all TR options 6. raid bypass timers being "ransacked" until 18hrs have gone by - similiar to quest ransack timer Last edited by Deadlock; 11-04-2014 at 10:41 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 14. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post To go along with that, we are planning to change how 20^th reward lists work. Instead of having a choice at all items from the Raid, the 20^th reward will be one randomly selected raid item. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post NO NO NO NO NO...did I mention NO. Unless you're going to guarantee a named item drop every x number of runs. Then forget it. This is terrible. I can't imagine that you could raise the drop rates great enough to justify this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 15. *Developer* Vargouille ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post NO NO NO NO NO...did I mention NO. Unless you're going to guarantee a named item drop every x number of runs. Then forget it. This is terrible. I can't imagine that you could raise the drop rates great enough to justify this. Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post What kind of drop rates would it take? We're paid per imagining, after all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 16. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Don't get me wrong, I have long supported better loot/drop rates based on difficulty. But you folks have been hammering home that you want everything to be available to all players and that the stronger/better/better equipped players should have no advantage over the casual folks. You have to know that if you better the drop rates for hard/elite, the casual folks are going to rage. Moreover removing the complete list of items for the 20th will make it even more difficult for the casuals to get said gear. I don't know what the answer is for this problem, but changing the 20th isn't it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post We're paid per imagining, after all. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post LOL, I almost created a random coffee based pareidolia pattern on my monitor from that. If low end Raid drop rates are 1%, 2%, 3% respective to difficulty level IMO you would need to make these: 1% 5% 10% to make a 1 item 20th list more palatable...That said they will still be trying to string you guys up on a pole on the castle wall. Half the items on a 20th list and that drop rate might do. So long as you tell people what the drop rates are and stop this unnecessary vagueness Please make Mythic items en mass that have 0% 1% 5% drop rate. Better yet, make mythic items use the old Shard/seal/scroll system for UPGRADE of the non mythic item, then allow a chance on EE to drop the full item. This would allow a long term loot goal and a reward for EE. Last edited by IronClan; 11-04-2014 at 11:21 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 18. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Are you guys really 100% sure this is a problem that needs solving (I mean chain running 20 EN raids with bypasses)? Seriously what percentage of the player base participates in this manner of farming? I know a few people that do it and a couple guilds... I know more people who don't bother and just play the game at the pace they wish... I myself ran 5 MoD's last night but declined to keep running them because I wished to go do something else. The other night I ran 5 or 6 VON's I had the time and inclination and I used bypasses to allow me to complete about two weeks worth of raids in one night... because my business and my schedule do not allow me to do 1 every 3 days. Who are you really hurting by making these changes? Casuals who like having EN raid LFM's they can join for 2 or 3 completions is my guess. Judging by the significant number of players who LEAVE before the second run, and then another chunk who always leave for the third run, and then more who leave befor the 4th run etc. etc. etc. IMO this behavour might actually not be a negative at all. Most people do 1 or 2 or maybe 3 runs... it's always the hard cases, the same 5 or 6 people who stay for more than 3 or 4 runs. A tiny percentage of the player base by my guess. The truth is this allows new players to feel more at ease joining a raid because there's EN raids to join, which was never the case in the old days pre-bypass timers. Be careful what you wish for it might actually harm the game. If you want to stretch raids out I suggest using a multi pronged compromise, some carrots and some sticks. Not this forum rage inducing proposal. Last edited by IronClan; 11-04-2014 at 11:35 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 19. *Developer* Vargouille ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Are you guys really 100% sure this is a problem that needs solving (I mean chain running 20 EN raids with bypasses)? Seriously what percentage of the player base participates in this manner of farming? Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Even just based on public player comments that you guys can see, it would appear to be everyone (bypasses or not; bypasses aren't inherently a key factor to /these/ issues). One of the most common complaints with raids seems to be that it's not rewarded enough on higher difficulties. This is difficult to address for raids that currently give out all possible items in the 20th reward list (this is not consistently true for all raids, of course). It's worth noting that going to 50% drop rates in the 20th list doesn't change the issue very much. It would, on average, take twice as long, but we don't necessarily expect that to be enough to suddenly motivate Elite (along with, for instance, doubling drop rates on Elite). A different perspective: Should it be "mathematically" correct to only play Normal for Raids? This is really two different questions: One for going forward with future content and items, as well as possible changes to the past. We should also be careful that we would not want to casually wipe out the current progress of players farming towards 20th completions. Consider this thread an exploration of possible solutions to issues brought to us by players that we agree could use some examination. We're willing to consider moderately major changes here if it's going to be for the best (obviously), and we're quite interested in your thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 20. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To add more to what Vargouille said above. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Who are you really hurting by making these changes? It is a fair question and the answer would be: Ideally, no one, or hopefully at least very few. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Let's look at a sample: Let's say there was a raid with 8 items and a 2% chance on normal of getting a named item and say the player is interested in 2 of the items- Since it would take 200 runs on average to get one of the items the player wanted, they are really only counting on the 20 runs to get the item. Now if we changed that to 20% (we aren't planning on going that high, but it is easier example math), the player will on average get one of the items they want in 20 runs, without a 20th reward list. So there should be combinations of chances for items in the end chest and amount of items in the 20th reward list that can make it very similar to before while also allowing us to increase the end chest numbers in higher difficulties to provide incentive to run those harder difficulties. The counter question would be: If we make no changes, who do we hurt? There are players who would like to do more elite difficulty raid runs who feel they can't because either 1) it is statistically wrong to do it or 2) they can't find enough players as others feel it is wrong to be wasting time on elite when it is faster to gain the items on normal. We'd like players to feel they can run the raids on harder difficulties without being penalized for doing so. But it is a tricky line as the goal isn't to ruin anyone's play, while trying to improve other player's enjoyment. Which is why we are having this conversation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 21. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post What kind of drop rates would it take? We're paid per imagining, after all. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post I'll make a deal with you. Eliminate the 20th list altogether. Raise the drop rate of named items to: 20% / 26% / 33% I'll take that anyday. {Let the rolling begin again...} Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-05-2014 at 01:31 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 22. Hero Andoris ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Even just based on public player comments that you guys can see, it would appear to be everyone (bypasses or not; bypasses aren't inherently a key factor to /these/ issues). One of the most common complaints with raids seems to be that it's not rewarded enough on higher difficulties. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post I agree with this statement for all raids prior to EE Mark of Death. I think you guys nailed the drop rates in MoD (if doing EN.. plan for 20 runs, EH..you will get 1-2 items you want (might be through rolls) by your 20th list; and EE it will be 2-3+ by the 20th list). Add to the fact that a good group can do EE in almost the same time you can do EN the MoD raid scene (on Ghallanda at least) has turned into something like this: Channel/guild run = EE, Pug group lead by folks that can do EE = EH; Random Pug group = EN. That seems like a pretty good distribution (imo). This is difficult to address for raids that currently give out all possible items in the 20th reward list (this is not consistently true for all raids, of course). It's worth noting that going to 50% drop rates in the 20th list doesn't change the issue very much. It would, on average, take twice as long, but we don't necessarily expect that to be enough to suddenly motivate Elite (along with, for instance, doubling drop rates on Elite). I disagree with you on this point. If I knew I only had a 50% chance of the item I wanted on the 20th list I know it would change mine (and many others) behavior. Remember, we don't know the (exact) percentages; and even if we did .. the lottery effect would still be a factor. Assuming that my numbers are even close to accurate (about ~7-8% chance of getting an item on EE) if people were aware of that (and that EN was only 1.5% chance) you would see plenty of people running EE. A different perspective: Should it be "mathematically" correct to only play Normal for Raids? This is really two different questions: One for going forward with future content and items, as well as possible changes to the past. I would be okay with this if Raid timers didn't exist.. as they do.. I think the difficulties should be as even as you can make them (EN can be slightly better than EE.. but it shouldn't be a significant variance) We should also be careful that we would not want to casually wipe out the current progress of players farming towards 20th completions. Consider this thread an exploration of possible solutions to issues brought to us by players that we agree could use some examination. We're willing to consider moderately major changes here if it's going to be for the best (obviously), and we're quite interested in your thoughts. If you don't want to impact peoples progress towards 20th lists... I would recommend a two month notice (enough time for 20 completions without bypasses) should be a fair solution. This issue is a problem worth solving (imo) and for that I am thankful that we are addressing it as a team. -- I do believe that Raid Bypasses are a major (but not only) source of the problem, however. The fact that thousands have been duped (reducing their value as a revenue stream) reinforces the need to deal with the issue. People are simply consuming content and getting bored (and leaving) too quickly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 23. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post To add more to what Vargouille said above. It is a fair question and the answer would be: Ideally, no one, or hopefully at least very few. Let's look at a sample: Let's say there was a raid with 8 items and a 2% chance on normal of getting a named item and say the player is interested in 2 of the items- Since it would take 200 runs on average to get one of the items the player wanted, they are really only counting on the 20 runs to get the item. Now if we changed that to 20% (we aren't planning on going that high, but it is easier example math), the player will on average get one of the items they want in 20 runs, without a 20th reward list. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post My mindset is, I would rather run the raid 20 times knowing for sure that the piece of loot I was after is going to be there. If I happen to get a piece of loot somewhere in that 20 runs, all the better for me. I know you can throw statistical data at me, but I'm telling you I'm the player that only gets named loot on my 20th or after everyone else has that piece of loot, because the dice gods hate me. Didn't one of the other, older raids have only a partial list of named items? Oh DQ was/is like that...and so was the original Reaver. People have hated partial lists for the 20th completion since forever. Ya know there was an idea started by Solar, during the ML days, that had to do with raid loot that we all loved but was shot down by the previous administration. I wish I could remember the exact details, damned memory...Go back and check the ML forums, I'm sure its there. Maybe one of the other MLers remembers. Here's the bottom line, there is so much randomness in this game (yea I know the basis for the game). It's nice to have something you can count on for the effort given. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 24. Hatchery Founder Coldin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So. Here's the main issue I have with the idea, and it centers around the 20th end reward list. Personally, I love the idea of raid loot being more common drops, since it makes it more fun and rewarding to run raids frequently. That said, unless you make the drop rate absurdly high, there is always going to be those circumstances where a player could run a raid 100 times and never get the item they want. With no sort of progression system to simply purchase the desired item, there comes times where RNG just doesn't work. 20th end rewards currently mostly avoid this problem. Yes, they're a bit annoying in that you have to run the raid 20 times, but it is a goal to work towards. Honestly, I think if the idea is to only give 1 raid item per 20 runs, then the number of runs needs to be reduced. 10 completions at the most for that guaranteed item, maybe even fewer if it's an older raid. Otherwise, you should implement a raid token type system where every run gives you a token. (Hard/Elite give more). Then you spend those tokens for a raid item of your choice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 25. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Coldin* View Post Otherwise, you should implement a raid token type system where every run gives you a token. (Hard/Elite give more). Then you spend those tokens for a raid item of your choice. Quote Originally Posted by *Coldin* View Post That was it! The idea tossed out by SD several months ago!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 26. DDO Players Council April_Kinslayer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I like that you're addressing the issue. Raids like Caught in the Web are mostly dead, and outside of favor there's no real incentive for running them on anything other than Normal. Like others have mentioned, unless you provide a specific % chance, any proposed change will be met with skepticism and/or rage. Give the people real numbers they can understand. Also, regarding the proposed changes to the 20th reward: Unless you sweeten the deal with the former proposal and transparent numbers, be ready for torches and pitchforks. And frankly, I'd likely be one of the guys leading the mob. I *hate* Random Number Generator-based loot systems because, to be honest, my luck (or lack thereof) is notoriously bad. It's bad enough to be subjected to it on a daily basis through Daily Dice, Saving Throws, my hilarious talent for rolling 1's on trips, stunning blows, etc; but to have that apply to my one beacon of hope for landing what I want? Nope, nope and nope. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 27. Silverleafeon *Ultimate Completionist* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Raids are a different animal than quests. They are expected to have a much longer shelf life. Hence Hard and especially Elite raids are made much tougher than Normal. Therefore, later on when the level cap hits 30 and ED hits 10, and we have level 35 gear, the raid is still challenging. {Example ~ EE Von 5 + 6 is still interesting.} Some of the current raids are not able to be completed on EE by a random group of veteran players. There has to be several uber special builds and careful choice of players. Resources used are very heavy. These sort of things are why EE raids such as CitW, FoT, Thunder Peaks, and MoD are not done on a regular basis. It is simply too hard, costly, and stressful to do them consistently with a Pick Up Group. You have done some good things this year, please don't waste time pulling it all apart now. Consider, CitW EE does 4,000 ~ 6,000 SP trap drain. Do you really think we want to face that three times a week without a pause to ponder. I lead group that teach people raids, we fail MoD EN often enough. Do we want to turn DDO into Elitist Channel raids? They took three tries, forum recruiting, refusing good players, etc... I am very tired of seeing past Devs being charmed by Elitist Mentality. If you want to follow that path, go choose a group of elitist PC members next year and tear the game up. I can take a break from the game, then show up in a few years and try out the new stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 28. Community Member Flavilandile Quote Originally Posted by *Dandonk* View Post I agree with this. Though, perhaps, 50% is a little high since the drop rate will be so much higher. Perhaps a third of the items? the 50% can be discussed. Quote Originally Posted by *Dandonk* View Post Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post What kind of drop rates would it take? We're paid per imagining, after all. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Well if you can assure that at least an item will drop every time for a good number of people in the raid ( number to be negociated ), the 20th list can be negociated... Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Are you guys really 100% sure this is a problem that needs solving (I mean chain running 20 EN raids with bypasses)? Seriously what percentage of the player base participates in this manner of farming? Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post I tend to concur with Ironclan on this. There's a problem for a few very specific items ( Yellow Dopant, Shard of SoS, ... ) and a single raid ( CitW ) but there's no general problem with Raid drop Rates Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Who are you really hurting by making these changes? Casuals who like having EN raid LFM's they can join for 2 or 3 completions is my guess. Judging by the significant number of players who LEAVE before the second run, and then another chunk who always leave for the third run, and then more who leave befor the 4th run etc. etc. etc. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Yup, in the end it's going to hurt the semi-casuals, that could get in EN raids, but won't be able to enter EE ones because of the restrictions raid leaders will put... Back to MyDDO Time, linking Gear and Stuff to be allowed in raid. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Be careful what you wish for it might actually harm the game. If you want to stretch raids out I suggest using a multi pronged compromise, some carrots and some sticks. Not this forum rage inducing proposal. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post As I stated, I consider that the 20th list change is going to induce a level of rage as high ( if not higher ) than the change that created the Occupy Stormreach Event. We all know how damaging this one has been, both in terms of players and game/company image. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The main issue we are addressing is that currently if you are after the items, the "correct" way to play is to blitz through normal to get to the 20th reward lists. If we raised the elite drop rates but left the 20th reward list in place as it currently stands, it would still be faster to run normal 20 times to get what you were after. The 20th reward lists were initially implemented due to compensate for low drop rates, so it is unlikely we would raise the drop rates but leave in the 20th reward list as it currently works. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Then the issue you are dealing with it the raid bypass timer and nothing else. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Changes to raid bypass timers are not currently in our plans. However, let's look at the thought of if you could run a Raid once per day. Let's assume there are 10 raid items and that the rate of getting 1 of the named items on elite was 33% (which is significantly above current rates). If you were looking for just 1 of the Raid items it would take you on average 30 days to get it in the end chest while running elite. So it would still be faster to do 20 runs to get the item you want, which also means running 20 times the fastest and easiest way is the most effective, so 20 runs on Normal. This highlights how much of an effect the 20th reward list has on the issue of incentives for running Elite raids, and it gets worse when you factor in the time to complete Elite and the chance of failure with running Elite. The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The only result of the change is going to be a bigger casual/semi-casual Vs Elite/powergamerz separation... You'll have those that can Elite the Raids to get the loot, and those that can't that won't be able to actually even run the raids.... it's the same issue as the Bravery Bonus that ( mostly ) killed pugs, by forcing people to run Elite, even when they can't deal with it, to keep the streak going. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Even just based on public player comments that you guys can see, it would appear to be everyone (bypasses or not; bypasses aren't inherently a key factor to /these/ issues). One of the most common complaints with raids seems to be that it's not rewarded enough on higher difficulties. This is difficult to address for raids that currently give out all possible items in the 20th reward list (this is not consistently true for all raids, of course). It's worth noting that going to 50% drop rates in the 20th list doesn't change the issue very much. It would, on average, take twice as long, but we don't necessarily expect that to be enough to suddenly motivate Elite (along with, for instance, doubling drop rates on Elite). A different perspective: Should it be "mathematically" correct to only play Normal for Raids? This is really two different questions: One for going forward with future content and items, as well as possible changes to the past. We should also be careful that we would not want to casually wipe out the current progress of players farming towards 20th completions. Consider this thread an exploration of possible solutions to issues brought to us by players that we agree could use some examination. We're willing to consider moderately major changes here if it's going to be for the best (obviously), and we're quite interested in your thoughts. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Remember, the Forum is not a really representative base.... for example, from my guild, there's no more than 10 people looking at them.... and we are more than 30 active players. ( as we have no issue filling 3 raidathon a week from within the guild. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post [snip] The counter question would be: If we make no changes, who do we hurt? There are players who would like to do more elite difficulty raid runs who feel they can't because either 1) it is statistically wrong to do it or 2) they can't find enough players as others feel it is wrong to be wasting time on elite when it is faster to gain the items on normal. We'd like players to feel they can run the raids on harder difficulties without being penalized for doing so. But it is a tricky line as the goal isn't to ruin anyone's play, while trying to improve other player's enjoyment. Which is why we are having this conversation. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post It won't change anything for those whining that the game is too easy and there's no incentive for Elite... They will just keep blitzing ( ok, that time on Elite to get it through faster ) the content for the item they want and then come back and whine that the content was too easy and that an Uber Epic difficulty is needed. Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post I'll make a deal with you. Eliminate the 20th list altogether. Raise the drop rate of named items to: 20% / 26% / 33% I'll take that anyday. {Let the rolling begin again...} Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post I'll make a deal for a change on the 20th list for it to be like chain rewards ( xd6 random Raid ) only if there's a 30+% chance that each person in a raid gets a named item in chests. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 29. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The main issue we are addressing is that currently if you are after the items, the "correct" way to play is to blitz through normal to get to the 20th reward lists. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post *IS *that really the issue, though? Using the pre-MotU days as comparison, people didn't just run Normal because it was quicker; they usually ran the hardest difficulty they felt they could handle, because harder difficulties had better drop rates. I think the issue is the timer bypasses, not the difficulties or drop rates. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post And, since Mark of Death seems to be our current example, I thought you'd already circumvented this issue pretty well: _*Masterwork Tapestry Shreds*_. That's why I do *NOT* run it ransacked, and run it the hardest difficulty for which I can get a group. In 4 more runs, I'll get the 2nd of the 2 items I want, but I'll still need to keep running it and running it for Taps. Do these supposed blitz-20-Normals-in-3-hours folks just not want to upgrade their items? Because they can't, doing that. I'll add my voice against destroying 20th "lists" down to a single item, and in favor of reducing 20th lists from 100% of named items, down to something in the 50%-67% range. 20th lists don't make you stop running a raid, I feel, but rather the opposite: they're a milestone to keep running the raid toward. They should give you a very good, but not guaranteed, chance of getting the item you want. Also, about the "Elite has 3x the drop of Normal" you mentioned...is that secret? I'm not going to tell, but I suggest that you do. Tell the player base, on the forums, if not the numbers, at least the relative drop rate between difficulties. Last edited by SirValentine; 11-05-2014 at 12:33 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 30. DDO Players Council hale99 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post There has been a lot of discussion by players lately about poor raid loot drop rates leading players to only run the raids on normal for the 20^th reward lists. This has led to us having internal discussions as well. Instead of continuing to have extremely low drop rates in the end reward chests for raids, we are planning to have significantly better chances going forward in most instances. Compared to The Mark of Death raid released last update, new raids would be around 6x more likely to drop a named item on Normal and 6x more likely to drop a named item on Elite (Elite is 3x as likely to drop an item as compared to Normal). As another frame of reference, raid named item drop rates would be closer to what the U23 quest drop rates are currently. Would love to see higher rates to drop, means so much more other than running 20 times for a item there is a lot more of a chance now. To go along with that, we are planning to change how 20^th reward lists work. Instead of having a choice at all items from the Raid, the 20^th reward will be one randomly selected raid item. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post DEAR GODS NUUUU! Bad bad bad bad x Google to the Google power! This will for a lack of a better word make players really really really mad if you mess with 20th end rewards. Out of the box thinking can be good if thought about correctly... here is not the case so here is my proposal. #1. Leave 20th alone! #2. Increase drop rates in raids so there is a chance of at least seeing one (more preferable) item dropping by 20th run. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 31. The Hatchery Dandonk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do not feel that 20th reward is "sacred" and untouchable. If we can get high enough drop rates, then I'm OK with changing the mechanic. I really like the idea of promoting other ways of grinding raid gear than just running normal over and over. I do think, though, that the 20th reward does address a very specific problem: The curse of the RNG god. Some people are bound to be unlucky, and not see the item(s) they want even after a silly number of runs. I would like the 20th reward to stay, in some form, to help these (me!) people out. Not necessarily as it is, but to have some mechanic to help out. Say NO to leaving d20 behind, say NO to bland game experience: say YES to scrapping the Combat Change! Furthermore, it is my opinion that crafting should not depend on build. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 32. Silverleafeon *Ultimate Completionist* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I found the thread that started this thread: Linkie although I no intention of posting in it, I am not impressed by it. The fellow starts out my admitting that he cannot complete EE raids then makes suggestions so more people play EE. Warning to the Devs ~ your proposal will nerf raid timers just as surely as any changes to raid timers. So if you depend upon that income and don't want to change the timers, beware. This actually brings up another question which the Devs never answer ~ do toons have a random luck variable factored into them? Are some races luckier than others? Etc? If so, then this proposal is problematic as it assumes all toons are created equal. If not, well, hmm...I wonder. Long term interest in raids is keeping them challenging even by overleveled players. To do that Hard and Elite have to be more uber than they should be. Until the level cap increases, this benefit will not appear. Masterwork Tapestries ~ that was the solution and you used it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 33. MugginsMai Community Member ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I would rather see another type of incentive for running Elite and Hard. I think changing the loot tables will upset a lot of players and not solve your core problem. I'd rather see something like.... like the special 10% xp bonus or +1 to all loot chests bonus server wide things you do .... a special just for this day, weekend, week such as a..... server wide bonus to Elite Raid xp or loot or ooooh, even better.... a special drop that moves from raid to raid and can only be found in Elite or Hard chests. That will definitely move players around the map. Something tasty like the Mantle of Worldshaper but higher level. Or something that upgrades Mantle and/or Voice... Oooh, or something disposable that upgrades your potion of Guild Reknown/XP/Mnemonic elixirs. Yeah. I'll run whatever quests I need for that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 34. DDO Players Council Failedlegend ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I must being missing something this seems like a x6 drop rate across the board how does this favor any difficulty over another? If it's normal gets x6...than hard is x6 of that....than elite is x6 of that (ie. if Normal is 2x6 = 12, Hard is 12x6 = 72, Elite is 72x6 = 432) than thats some serious overkill but I do think drop rates should increase with difficulty. Either way I don't think we should nerf the 20th completion...I mean I've only really reached that on a couple raids (usually Demon Queen & Shroud every life than a few others depending on loot wants) but it's an awesome incentive. I'm sure there's a small sub section of players that make heavy use of raid timer bypasses but I say more power to them but I doubt it's a wide spread issue and if it is maybe consider dropping the raid timer bypass item. Either way a general loot drop increase will mean far less 20th completions (ie. hunting down the elusive torc) thus it will become much rarer reward and would be a HUGE shame to see that nerfed especially since half the time right NOW you don't get the item you want out of it...frankly I think it should offer EVERY applicable named item (and some guild renown or tokens, or commendations just in case you don't want anything else) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 35. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post To add more to what Vargouille said above. It is a fair question and the answer would be: Ideally, no one, or hopefully at least very few. Let's look at a sample: Let's say there was a raid with 8 items and a 2% chance on normal of getting a named item and say the player is interested in 2 of the items- Since it would take 200 runs on average to get one of the items the player wanted, they are really only counting on the 20 runs to get the item. Now if we changed that to 20% (we aren't planning on going that high, but it is easier example math), the player will on average get one of the items they want in 20 runs, without a 20th reward list. So there should be combinations of chances for items in the end chest and amount of items in the 20th reward list that can make it very similar to before while also allowing us to increase the end chest numbers in higher difficulties to provide incentive to run those harder difficulties. The counter question would be: If we make no changes, who do we hurt? There are players who would like to do more elite difficulty raid runs who feel they can't because either 1) it is statistically wrong to do it or 2) they can't find enough players as others feel it is wrong to be wasting time on elite when it is faster to gain the items on normal. We'd like players to feel they can run the raids on harder difficulties without being penalized for doing so. But it is a tricky line as the goal isn't to ruin anyone's play, while trying to improve other player's enjoyment. Which is why we are having this conversation. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Tricky issue is right In the end it all comes back to the lowest common denominator, whats most simple and straight forward but gets you your loot is what most people are going to do. You know Deathwyrms are almost all done by sending 1 person into a phylactery at a time until someone kills the correct one? Haven't seen a "simultaneous prep" phylactery destruction in months. We always digress to the simplest possible means to an end. The one with the least friction. With that in mind, whatever solution you guys put in needs to factor in that most people will use the new "lowest common denominator method" they will dumb it down the the most simple way to do it even when you make changes. If we lower the incentive to run EN much then no one will run EN. I am wondering (without metrics that you guys have) if the net effect of lots of EN LFM's for raids isn't actually a positive... Including MORE players and providing MORE PUG raids on the LFM panel. You guys have always said only a smallish percentage of the player base raids... do EN LFM's improve that equation? I'm guessing they do. Bigger question: if you make EE so attractive that few raids are run on anything lower will you be cutting people like myself (who absolutely wont join an EE raid unless I know the people running it, but will jump into a EN PUG where I don't know a single name) out of the action every night, when before these changes I could find someone chain running EN and get a couple runs in? I think the net effect of this on me is that I will have less LFM's to choose from... I'm not sure that this medicine isn't worse than the disease... I personally would rather see exclusive upgrade tiers in EE than reduce the LFM's for raids in any significant way. And make no mistake, EN raids will disappear completely if you make 20th lists 1 item. Last edited by IronClan; 11-05-2014 at 09:04 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 36. *Developer* Vargouille ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post This actually brings up another question which the Devs never answer ~ do toons have a random luck variable factored into them? Are some races luckier than others? Etc? Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post No. Period. ... Excepting Dragonmarks from Humans and Half Orcs and Halfling Luck etc. etc. things that are explicitly spelled out already yet if we answer this publicly someone is going to call us on those exceptions. Often we don't consider this broad category of questions that important to answer unless a lot of people are asking for some reason. Classes also don't affect loot drops, nor does spinning in a circle before opening the chest, or using Prayer on ten enemies before the chest is in sight and Bane on the chest itself. Etc., etc. Or, to put it another way, some of these questions look like tinfoil hat conspiracies to us, which are usually better to ignore than feed, unless we feel like messing with players. Obviously you want to cast Bless on every chest before opening it, ideally once per party member, including hirelings, summons, and twice for dogs, except metal ones and Thursdays. Quote Originally Posted by *April_Kinslayer* View Post Like others have mentioned, unless you provide a specific % chance, any proposed change will be met with skepticism and/or rage. Give the people real numbers they can understand. Not to call you out specifically (many have commented on this, as mentioned), but I'm going to keep pushing the game I like to play: Please provide us the numbers that /you/ are thinking about. Turnabout is fair play! =D Quote Originally Posted by *April_Kinslayer* View Post Once we/I say specific numbers, it anchors the conversation around those numbers. Collectively, we get valuable feedback out of you guys saying numbers. If we anchor the conversation around numbers that *we* give, it becomes impossible to get that feedback. The opportunity is lost. For instance, more answers like this are great: Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post 20% / 26% / 33% Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post Even me quoting this set of numbers may interfere with us getting unfettered responses. I am neither condoning nor condemning the actual numbers from Silver here, but rather that there is a response at all with numbers in it -- the exact thing you guys want from us. =D Quote Originally Posted by *Failedlegend* View Post I must being missing something this seems like a x6 drop rate across the board how does this favor any difficulty over another? We don't really want to favor one difficultly over another. That's kind of the point. Quote Originally Posted by *Failedlegend* View Post We're also not proposing a x6 drop rate increase across the board per se. I'm not entirely certain where that came from but it's not precisely what we're discussing. If it's normal gets x6...than hard is x6 of that....than elite is x6 of that (ie. if Normal is 2x6 = 12, Hard is 12x6 = 72, Elite is 72x6 = 432) than thats some serious overkill but I do think drop rates should increase with difficulty. And drop rates already do increase with difficulty (generally), but maybe not enough (in relative numbers), including compared to Raid 20th lists. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 37. Silverleafeon *Ultimate Completionist* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post No. Period. ... Excepting Dragonmarks from Humans and Half Orcs and Halfling Luck etc. etc. things that are explicitly spelled out already yet if we answer this publicly someone is going to call us on those exceptions. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Thanks... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 38. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Part of the problem is that there's 3 relevant raids to run so no wonder some are burning themselves out on them. FoT is borderline obsolete non end game gear and CITW which was killed by the Reward boxes. This is surely part of the problem. So take Titan, VOD, HOX, VON5-6, Tempest Spine, LOB/MA and Chrono and over the next couple updates give them all "Mythic" difficulty level 30 monster CR's and boost their loot with straight upconversion (+5 becomes +10), this would fill out the raid rotation so much that no one would want to run 20 MoD's in a row anymore anyway. Remember when we had "raid nights" some of us do and it made the game feel healthier. You can save Shroud and Amrath for full on "revamp/reboot" Epifying... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 39. Hero Knight of Movember Hafeal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thumbs up The Casual Persepctive OK, I will give you a perspective from a long time player who off and on raids. I will further base it on my play time as well my fellows in my x1 week, static group which I have run since 2009; some in the group play every night, some 4 nights a week, some a couple of times per week, one plays that once per week (we have been through ~10 players). 1) 20th end reward lists mean absolutely nothing to a casual player. The only raid close to meaningful on a 20th used to be shroud because everyone ran it for ingredients. Casual players will never run raids enough to get these completions except over years. If you get it in less time than that, you are /not/ a casual player. 2) For all the complainging about a lack of end game and the extremely whiny crying about how easy the game is - making powerful loot drop more is laughable. Drop rates should be rare and keep them there - that is what serious power gamers should be grinding their teeth on, for 2 reasons: a) It gives them something to do; and b) It appeases the epeen to have something most others won't. For all the complaining about the SoS shard - it is still a Hallmark of status. 3) I believe a formula like this should exist: a) Raids run on Elite - AT LEVEL - should have a guaranteed drop rate of at least 1 item per 6 players. b) Raids on Hard - AT LEVEL - should have a 50% drop rate chance of at least 1 item per 6 players. c) Normal - same as it ever was - even a shut-out. Most raids have enough loot that even guaranteed loot won't mean something will drop for everyone that several other won't want to keep running to get it for themselves. It sounds to me like this change is designed to make it a challenge and time consumption opportunity for the power gamer crowd. If so, understand that despite the cries for "challenge" - most gamers, like water, will take the path of least resistance. You need a lot to prod them into pushing the limits. Last edited by Hafeal; 11-06-2014 at 01:27 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 40. Hatchery Founder Coldin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post That was it! The idea tossed out by SD several months ago!! Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post Yep. And it's still a good idea. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 41. DDO Players Council Failedlegend Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post We don't really want to favor one difficultly over another. That's kind of the point. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Oh sorry I was responding to the complaints about elite being even more required than before, I was saying I think they misunderstand that it is just a general increase NOT only for elite or anything IOW we agree ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 42. Community Member Micki ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I know I said this before, but I don't quite like the idea of the 20th list offering all raid items. It means that you are guaranteed your wanted item on the 20th list, so of course you'll just run the raid on normal to quickly get the 20th list. I'd love to see better drop rates on higher difficulties, and a 20th list with a random selection of named items, tomes and renown, as it's been before. The 20th list offering all items also mean that once you've done your 20th (if it's just one specific item you want), there is really no need to run the raid anymore. Raids like VON has been one of the raids that ppl keep running for eSOS and xp and what ever else. It's quick and the 20 list isn't quite as important as the end chests... even though you do get a chance of getting the item you want on the 20th (but not guaranteed). I'd like to see the chance of getting +4 and +5 tomes on the 20th list increased a bit. That would give me another reason to run raids after getting the specific item I'm looking for. Make the tomes btA. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 43. DDO Players Council hale99 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post I know I said this before, but I don't quite like the idea of the 20th list offering all raid items. It means that you are guaranteed your wanted item on the 20th list, so of course you'll just run the raid on normal to quickly get the 20th list. I'd love to see better drop rates on higher difficulties, and a 20th list with a random selection of named items, tomes and renown, as it's been before. The 20th list offering all items also mean that once you've done your 20th (if it's just one specific item you want), there is really no need to run the raid anymore. Raids like VON has been one of the raids that ppl keep running for eSOS and xp and what ever else. It's quick and the 20 list isn't quite as important as the end chests... even though you do get a chance of getting the item you want on the 20th (but not guaranteed). I'd like to see the chance of getting +4 and +5 tomes on the 20th list increased a bit. That would give me another reason to run raids after getting the specific item I'm looking for. Make the tomes btA. Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post I'm sorry but if I'm running a raid 20 times just to get the one item I desire then it better be on there. With the drop rates as bad as they are now having all rewards on the 20th is a idea that shouldn't change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 44. Silverleafeon *Ultimate Completionist* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We have some really smart people here, smarter than me. I'll stick with my numbers, but how about a couple people giving out better ones? A few numbers, hmm? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 45. Community Member Micki ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *hale99* View Post I'm sorry but if I'm running a raid 20 times just to get the one item I desire then it better be on there. With the drop rates as bad as they are now having all rewards on the 20th is a idea that shouldn't change. Quote Originally Posted by *hale99* View Post I ran Abbot 60 times to get 2 quivers. I ran Deathworm 60 times to get 3x bracers (1 per toon). It took me a couple of years to get the Abbot items, it took me a few weeks to get the Deathworm bracers.. after which I had no inspiration to run the raid anymore. MoD I'm running more just because it's so fast. So, not offering 100% chance on the 20th list, for me it would potentially make me run the raid more, than the guaranteed item, which I'm actually finding quite boring. I may be alone with this opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 46. *Developer* Vargouille ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *hale99* View Post I'm sorry but if I'm running a raid 20 times just to get the one item I desire then it better be on there. With the drop rates as bad as they are now having all rewards on the 20th is a idea that shouldn't change. Quote Originally Posted by *hale99* View Post ... you are kind of making our point. The whole idea is that the drop rates would not be as bad as they are now. We are extremely unlikely to drop raid 20th lists without significantly raising drop rates, and the reverse is also true. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 47. Hero Knight of Movember Hafeal Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post ... you are kind of making our point. The whole idea is that the drop rates would not be as bad as they are now. We are extremely unlikely to drop raid 20th lists without significantly raising drop rates, and the reverse is also true. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post I'll tell you what - what about leaving drop rates where they are at. Leave 20th lists as is BUT allow Raid completions to carry over through TRs. I think this would free up people from thinking they have to wait to TR and hold characters to get what they want. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 48. Hero Knight of Movember Hafeal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I also had a question on drop rates. I have been in more raids where nothing drops than you can shake a stick at. I have never been in, I have have never heard of, a raid where 12 raid items drop. I even started a thread on this several years ago. I think the highest number posted in the game was 8 (of 12). At some point, the law of averages, as I understand it, says there should be, after millions upon millions of calculations, some rare convergence of this happening in the game. Maybe it has and hasn't been posted - but I doubt it. I guess, what I am wondering - how, exactly, are raid loot calculations performed? By group or by individual? Is it a simple straight 1 roll or are there 2? or 3? I guess what I am asking is - is there another reason why raid loot drops are so screwy? Are you _/sure/_ it is WAI? Because somewhere along the line - I would think the math and the law of averages would not have as many shutouts or 1 items drops as we get in this game if the math was being fair - I would think you would end up in the 3-7 range on average. That or the calculations don't work the way we think they do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 49. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post We are extremely unlikely to drop raid 20th lists without significantly raising drop rates, and /*the reverse is also true*/. I'm rather astonished at that statement. So...would it be a fair paraphrase to say that you think overall raid-item-acquisition rate is exactly right, right now? Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post If that's true, then I am strongly against any proposed changes along the lines you suggest. The net effect would just be that players would be even more at the whim of the random number generator. Yes, on average it'd be the same, and some folks would get things sooner, but others would get things much, much later (or never). Dumping 20th lists, while leaving the overall average rate the same, makes the worst case potentially much, much worse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 50. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post ...We are extremely unlikely to drop raid 20th lists without significantly raising drop rates, and the reverse is also true. Quote Originally Posted by *Vargouille* View Post Sorry, and don't take this personally, but I see this happening this way. You'll drop the 20th list, come up with some percent drop rate, have it go live, do your data mining, and decide the percentage is too high and then the percentage will get blasted back to the near nothingness it is currently. And let's make sure we are not just looking a the 7 minute, normal completions of MoD. FoT and Peaks take more time. Wyrm takes even more, and of course CiTW takes forever. Don't ask me to run these longer raids and not get a piece of raid loot in some respectable number of runs. You MUST find some balance between giving the players something to do and not frustrating them into not wanting to play. Again I say, leave the 20th alone. Why kick the bear? Last edited by Kwyjibo; 11-07-2014 at 02:14 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 51. *Uber Uber Completionist* Deadlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post And let's make sure we are not just looking a the 7 minute, normal completions of MoD. FoT and Peaks takes more time. Wyrm takes even more, and of course CiTW takes forever. Don't ask me to run these longer raids and not get a piece of raid loot in some respectable number of runs. You MUST find some balance between giving the players something to do and not frustrating them into not wanting to play. Again I say, leave the 20th alone. Why kick the bear? Quote Originally Posted by *Kwyjibo* View Post Given the amount of meta data that they have, it seems reasonable to suggest that the % drop rates factor in completion times. If I spend 5 mins in a quest and don't pull a named item, I don't feel hard done to. If I spend 55 mins in a quest and nobody pulls a named item, I decide the raid is a joke and a waste of my time ... especially if that was on EE. CITW ... you know I'm talking about you. So the solution is simple: 1. use meta data to scale the drop rates based on cross-server completions times (updated weekly and assuming 30 mins = 100% for 1 item is acceptable) 2. carry raid completions forward through any form of TR 3. make the 20th completion guaranteed to drop (actual completions/20)d6 number of items. Last edited by Deadlock; 11-07-2014 at 02:07 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 52. *Uber Uber Completionist* Deadlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Failedlegend* View Post Oh sorry I was responding to the complaints about elite being even more required than before, I was saying I think they misunderstand that it is just a general increase NOT only for elite or anything IOW we agree Quote Originally Posted by *Failedlegend* View Post Ultimate derail post here but I don't care, happy for someone to delete. How the hell did you manage to get your cat in a triceratops outfit for the cast and then have it happy to sit and be the star of the show? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfp1YoCrGis#t=1020 I'm not going to open up the question of how you had the outfit and what other outfits you might have .... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 53. DDO Players Council Failedlegend ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Deadlock* View Post Ultimate derail post here but I don't care, happy for someone to delete. How the hell did you manage to get your cat in a triceratops outfit for the cast and then have it happy to sit and be the star of the show? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfp1YoCrGis#t=1020 I'm not going to open up the question of how you had the outfit and what other outfits you might have .... Quote Originally Posted by *Deadlock* View Post Kiwis is the most agreeable cat I've ever had she'll put up with alot for attention, as for the costume 5$ at Target. Picked it up on a whim whilst getting halloween candy...if your talking about the cloak I have several props and costumes to make my tabletop campaigns more interesting ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 54. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eliminating/modifying the 20th list will eventually reach a discussion on: Shroud ~ Cleansers would need to drop in base end chest at a 5% rate; Yellow Droplets would need to drop in base end chest at a 5% rate. DQ ~ Add an exchange for Seals and Shards at a expensive rate of say 1:24 Chronoscope ~ seems to be popular even without a 20th list. Good xp, good drops. Something to consider. Tempest Spine ~ also a popular raid that does not have a 20th list. Often requested to upgrade to Epic version, yet no mention of 20th list being important there. The Master Artificer ~ already has a modified NPC list much different than the normal 20th: Every 5th ~ a complete weapon list appears and you can choose one of them. Alchemical weapons as a whole are often simply given away and sometimes even vendored. Upgrading the difficulty to Master Artificier to level 26+ish might be a good idea if possible. The heroic and epic versions seem too close in level. Also, clearing to the raid gets old eventually, teleporter please. Any chance we could have an quick and simple upgradable epic alchemical weapon. Use the same crafting but add +? enhancement and +?[w] to the weapons? The Lord of Blades ~ also already has a modified NPC list: Special rewards on every 10th completion: Your choice of standard spirit, cell or compound. Also a small chance at a random refined spirit. There is also the problem of the drops rates are tied directly to difficulty excluding various types, hence the group must choose what type ingredient they want and run that difficulty. This has long been problematic, and an introduction of more variety in drops in exchange for no 10th list would likely be welcomed. Upgrading the difficulty of Epic LoB to level 26+ish might be a good idea if possible. Epic Shroud ~ would be very welcomed, but as per regular shroud the heavy use of ingredients make removing a 20th list fairly easy to perceive. Yellow doplets are mostly wanted to retain cleansers. Epic Tower of Despair ~ could be anything, but if the set theme continues then the numbers of items available would be huge. An increased drop rate would encourage rolling/swapping with raid parties that may be more desirable than the current limited list would be. Fire on Thunder Peaks / Temple of the Deathwyrm ~ the extremely low drop rate yields a sour ending to a happy event. I would happily give up the 20th for much better chance of pulling an item. The amount of raid items offered also seems too low to me. Hound of Xoriat / A Vision of Destruction ~ would like to see epic version of these someday, but I think the current proposal needs to be dealt with one way or another first. Perhaps an ability to enter the raid from the Marketplace as well? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 55. Community Member Micki ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Epic Chrono had a 20th list last time I did a 20th. It offered a selection of shards, just like ADQ does. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 56. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post Epoc Chrono had a 20th list last time I did a 20th. It offered a selection of shards, just like ADQ does. Quote Originally Posted by *Micki* View Post Can we get clarification on this? It must be a bug... Too bad it's impossible to slot the Epic Chrono items any more they are just too outdated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 57. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Can we get clarification on this? It must be a bug... Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Interesting Micki, bringing that up, will ask around about that. If this is true then a shard / seal exchange for chronoscope 1 to 24 (insert smarter numbers here) for Chronoscope or possibly all shards/seals in different packs might be something to consider. DDO WIKI {which can wrong} NPC rewards: Choose from 9. End reward will contain several named items from the list below (generally nearly every one), as well as a few randomly-generated items, which will be BTA and no-ML. Too bad it's impossible to slot the Epic Chrono items any more they are just too outdated I know the set bonus idea is really nice. I wonder if we could level cap some of the epic raids that are like level 20ish. Supreme Chronoscope level 30ish? Maybe someday. Or maybe we need an upgrade system to convert all the shard/seal/scroll items into Sentient/Intelligent/Legendary Versions by adding new ???/???/??? to them. ''''''''''' Concerning my numbers ~ I tend to go a little bit high, and assume the Devs will go a little low {although Sev surprises me a times as he seems to try for spot on}. So if my numbers dropped like 3%, I would still be happy with them. If they went much higher or lower than that range, I would start being uncomfortable with them and have to think about it. Fawngate has done 100 EN Mark of Death raids and she has 5 item from the raid. Assuming the proposal actually went into effect, she probably would adapt by running the raid 3 times every 3 days (with an occasional ransack/reincarnate) using 2 raid timers to do so. {Which makes the proposal slightly more attractive than the 1/day bypass limit proposed above}. Assuming my possibly flawed numbers were used, she would have been tempted to run the raid on EH or even EE at times. The difference between 20% and 33% is significant enough to not ignore whereas the difference between 0.? for EN and 0.? for EE is certainly easy to ignore. She would have probably pulled 20 random items. She wanted 3 items from the raid directly and admires all of them indirectly. Assuming for every items she pulls, she would have had the opportunity to roll on someone else's items and win, then she is likely to have all 8 items by the time she had made 100 runs. Assuming the item drop rate is that high, she would feel better about running the raid with friends for fun as the likelihood of her pulling an item she could put up for roll is strong. She could also reincarnate at any time without fear of losing the 20th list. She does not mind the inferno, as she knows there is tactics to avoid it. She still HATES EE CitW, due to the spell point trap drain of 4k to 6k. She did have every item from CitW before her Phoenix awhile back, so its not the raid as much as feeling the MotU Devs were to elitist minded when they built that raid (see sentence before this one and read it 10X.) All in all, if the drop rates are high enough, and you promise to revert back to 20th lists instead of nerfing the drop rates, I see this as a win~win. As has been expressed, if we approve this, then you pull the 20th lists and later nerf the drops rates, expect mucho rage along with pitchfolks and torches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 58. DDO Players Council ishr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post There has been a lot of discussion by players lately about poor raid loot drop rates leading players to only run the raids on normal for the 20^th reward lists. This has led to us having internal discussions as well. Instead of continuing to have extremely low drop rates in the end reward chests for raids, we are planning to have significantly better chances going forward in most instances. Compared to The Mark of Death raid released last update, new raids would be around 6x more likely to drop a named item on Normal and 6x more likely to drop a named item on Elite (Elite is 3x as likely to drop an item as compared to Normal). As another frame of reference, raid named item drop rates would be closer to what the U23 quest drop rates are currently. To go along with that, we are planning to change how 20^th reward lists work. Instead of having a choice at all items from the Raid, the 20^th reward will be one randomly selected raid item. Ingredients and other special types of items would generally be handled separately from this change. We are also considering going back and retroactively adjusting most older raids to this same system. We understand this could be controversial so we wanted to bring it up as a discussion. The other option would be to leave existing raids as they currently are, and only do this for new raids with our concern being the inconsistency this would bring to how different raids function. Thoughts? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Your relative chance is the same. I don't get why this is such a hard concept to grasp. This doesn't change the fact that people will continue to run raids on normal only. People make the optimal choice as it stands in comparison to alternatives. 6x everything will result in no net change except people ticked off that they could get majorly skunked on their 20th. This issue is explained succinctly here in the other PC forum, and it appears our words were wasted. Last edited by ishr; 11-10-2014 at 12:01 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 59. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post Your relative chance is the same. I don't get why this is such a hard concept to grasp. This doesn't change the fact that people will continue to run raids on normal only. People make the optimal choice as it stands in comparison to alternatives. 6x everything will result in no net change except people ticked off that they could get majorly skunked on their 20th. This issue is explained succinctly here in the other PC forum, and it appears our words were wasted. Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post I think there is some confusion of my original post. Currently Normal and Elite chances are not the same. I said that they would both be increased by something like 6x which would make their gap the same but both be 6x more likely to drop as before. That means you would still be more likely to get an item on Elite than on Normal. And without the 20th reward list as a backup, it would be more likely for players who could run Elite to do so since they are more likely to get an item. In any change it would most likely be that elite has a drop rate at least 3x higher than Normal. There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. – adapted from Elbert Hubbard ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 60. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I think there is some confusion of my original post. Of course there is. Currently Normal and Elite chances are not the same. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post As we say in Calculus class, the limit of x / infinity = zero. I said that they would both be increased by something like 6x which would make their gap the same but both be 6x more likely to drop as before. 6 X what appears to be close zero = still zero In order words, we have absolutely no clue what you are proposing, because we have no clue what the drop rates actually are. In order to preserve NDA, you don't want to tell us what the drop rates are. Or typically are. Stalemate~which I am breaking by proposing numbers. As I said before, my numbers are a little on the high side. I am willing to compromise. I also factored in no twentieth list, which is a 5% difference. That means you would still be more likely to get an item on Elite than on Normal. And without the 20th reward list as a backup, it would be more likely for players who could run Elite to do so since they are more likely to get an item. I can see that. *I still protest that awful CitW sp drain on EE.* {bolded for rage 10 on a scale of 1 to 10} In any change it would most likely be that elite has a drop rate at least 3x higher than Normal. Ok, here's a clue for me, you want EN*3 = EE, thank you. I'll assume, you want EN*2 = EH, so EN*3 = EE ; EN*2 = EH I honestly think this is a little bit over the top, but I'll play along. Since I proposed 20 / 26/ 33 {no 20th}, I'll try to adjust my numbers to your formula: I am going to have to scrunch EN a bit smaller, hmm... I might be comfortable with this: 13~15% / 26%~30% / 39%~45% Let me see here what 100 EN runs would yield: 100 X 13% = 13 named items Hmm...that is better than the 5 I got from 100 runs in MoD Ok, I like 13% / 26% / 39% {no 20th} really well, I am happy with it. I could compromise and go with 10% / 20% / 30% but anything below that I would have to ponder deeply. Of course you are seriously nerfing normal when you do this, as 10% = 2 random item < choice of one item from a list at 20th. Which I why I did not go with the 3XEN = EE. But you want 3X which makes my normal value have to rise to 13%ish. I wonder if you folks are pondering something like: 6% / 12 % / 18% and feeling very satisfied with that generous 18%, however as you can see: a 20th list is 5% with a choice > 6% random anyday? A while back the new epic past lives suggested having a one toon wonder was the best approach. I do compliment you for considering non lottery type drop rates as that will bring the focus on having a stable full of alt toons back into vogue. I do see a lot of players cycling their toons in Mark of Death, better drop rates could actually encourage more play instead of less, I know people tell my often to make an alt. Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-10-2014 at 06:48 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 61. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alright, Silver started the number crunching, so I decided to crunch some, too. Suppose new drop rates are *100%* chance of a random named item every Normal run. There's 9 named items in Mark of Death, so that's 11% for any single specific desired named item. In 20 runs, the odds for getting a single specific named item you want, *with a 100% named drop rate per run*, is 90.5% [ 1 - (1-p)^20 ]. Currently, in 20 runs, the odds are 100%. So even a guaranteed drop per run is mathematically a nerf compared to the current 20th end reward list for someone who wants one specific item. So I really have a hard time imagining you're actually going to raise drop rates enough to compensate for eliminating 20th end rewards. If you want people to run harder difficulties instead of only Normal, leave 20th lists alone, significantly boost Hard drop rates, and massively boost Elite drop rates. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 62. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nice crunching Valentine. I guess that is why I started with 17%~20% for EN. And why I not comfortable with 10%, it just seems way to low. Suppose I went back to my original numbers of 20/26/33 but adjusted them on normal drops instead of elite drops. The numbers would look more like this: 20% / 40% / 60% with my compromise being 17% / 24% / 51% I hesitate to suggest such values as they might be auto declined by the Devs, however if the Devs want to consider such figures, yes I would take 17% / 24% / 51% and wander off happy. ;;;;; Random thoughts: Technically you claiming to raise drop rates by 6X. First you must convert the 20th list into an automatic 5% drop rate. Then we multiple by 6*5% = 30% Then we increase by 2 and 3 for EH and EE Making your numbers 30% / 60% / 90% which I think is too high Maybe if we cut those numbers in half, they would be acceptable? 15% / 30% / 45% Hmm....all these numbers are kind of in the same range? Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-10-2014 at 07:57 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 63. *Uber Uber Completionist Deadlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I think there is some confusion of my original post. Currently Normal and Elite chances are not the same. I said that they would both be increased by something like 6x which would make their gap the same but both be 6x more likely to drop as before. That means you would still be more likely to get an item on Elite than on Normal. And without the 20th reward list as a backup, it would be more likely for players who could run Elite to do so since they are more likely to get an item. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post In any change it would most likely be that elite has a drop rate at least 3x higher than Normal. Can we use actual numbers to help avoid confusion? So if we are currently at 1%, 2% and 3%, then 6x this becomes 6%, 12% and 18%? So Elite is still 3x the rate of Normal? Are these the numbers we're talking about? * Quijonn on Ghallanda, Triple Completionist ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 64. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post 6 X what appears to be close zero = still zero Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post I did also mention that the rates would be closer to what the U23 quests had for drop rates, which most players on the forums have commented on as being good. Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post Alright, Silver started the number crunching, so I decided to crunch some, too. Suppose new drop rates are *100%* chance of a random named item every Normal run. There's 9 named items in Mark of Death, so that's 11% for any single specific desired named item. In 20 runs, the odds for getting a single specific named item you want, *with a 100% named drop rate per run*, is 90.5% [ 1 - (1-p)^20 ]. Currently, in 20 runs, the odds are 100%. So even a guaranteed drop per run is mathematically a nerf compared to the current 20th end reward list for someone who wants one specific item. So I really have a hard time imagining you're actually going to raise drop rates enough to compensate for eliminating 20th end rewards. If you want people to run harder difficulties instead of only Normal, leave 20th lists alone, significantly boost Hard drop rates, and massively boost Elite drop rates. Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post Yes, anything that is not a true 100% guarantee, will never reach a 100% guaranteed drop rate, no matter how many runs you do. However, I don't think that is fair to say due to this it is a nerf. The reason for that is because on average, people would then obtain the item in ~10 runs which is twice as fast as 20 runs needed for the guarantee now. You can also see this in the fact that you don't typically hear people talking about how impossible it is to get an item from U23 quests (or a variety of other quests) because the drop rates are good enough to regularly see items. Even still, in all of those cases there is never a 100% guarantee to get a given item no matter how many times those are run. There are drop rates that typically work, and make people feel good, about running quests without needing an additional guarantee to be given the item of their choice. I think the reason this is hitting people so hard is because they currently have a 100% guarantee and are afraid of the worst case scenarios (however statistically unlikely) that may befall them if it is removed, even though they don't worry about that same scenario now in quests which don't have the 20th lists. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 65. Community Member MeliCat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ After my initial "OH NO YOU"RE TAKING AWAY MY 20TH" response (Steel and Varg witnessed my outrage in IRC), I've had time to reflect on the increased drop rate. BUT... it involves knowing what the starting drop rates are to know if we can trust you. So... if it's currently 0.01... then 6x is 0.06 which is still stupid sucky so who cares if you're doing x6? You see the reason I am so wedded to the concept of 20ths is my lack of chances to get raids. I'm not in the biggest of biggest raiding guilds - I count myself extremely fortunate to be in the guilds that I am in though, and the channels I am in because I do actually get more chances to raid than a lot of people so I'm very thankful. My timezone being awful also doens't help but hey I wake up enough times at 3am to get some euro runs in and there is always my Saturday mornings (if I'm not out doing "RL"). So...for my PM.. > 1 year to do 40 runs and finally get the abbot robe. > 3 months to get 20 runs TDW and I was going to take the braces but took phlogs > 3 months to get 20 runs Peaks and I got the meridian fragment (lol... after being offered stacks of 10 of them by a stranger when I mentioned in once in a raid I was running lol. Pass) ~ 3 weeks MoD ... .because that's the only thing running because that has the only stuff that people want. My point is... I think all of this is shortsighted AND is going to massively penalize people like me who rely on their 20ths to definitely get items that they want *** because we hardly get any opportunities to raid***. As people get the items they want they stop raiding. You have not enough incentives to get people to raid. Many, many threads have been made to give suggestions and examples as to why this is so. I think even calling this "Raids" is provocative. I see it each time I see this thread and think "Oh good they're finally addressing the raiding situation" when no actually, you are dealing with one detail in isolation and you are ultimately going to make it worse for me and others in my situation. This is because your focus is: Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post And not the raiding situation as a whole. As the population drops this is just a mean thing to do. Less and less people are grouping into guilds preferring to do their own thing and guilds seem careless of recruiting or not. You need to look at the community aspects of raiding as part of the solution and not do this in isolation. I agree with IronClan: Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Are you guys really 100% sure this is a problem that needs solving (I mean chain running 20 EN raids with bypasses)? Seriously what percentage of the player base participates in this manner of farming? Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post I know a few people that do it and a couple guilds... I know more people who don't bother and just play the game at the pace they wish... I myself ran 5 MoD's last night but declined to keep running them because I wished to go do something else. The other night I ran 5 or 6 VON's I had the time and inclination and I used bypasses to allow me to complete about two weeks worth of raids in one night... because my business and my schedule do not allow me to do 1 every 3 days. Who are you really hurting by making these changes? Casuals who like having EN raid LFM's they can join for 2 or 3 completions is my guess. Judging by the significant number of players who LEAVE before the second run, and then another chunk who always leave for the third run, and then more who leave befor the 4th run etc. etc. etc. IMO this behavour might actually not be a negative at all. Most people do 1 or 2 or maybe 3 runs... it's always the hard cases, the same 5 or 6 people who stay for more than 3 or 4 runs. A tiny percentage of the player base by my guess. The truth is this allows new players to feel more at ease joining a raid because there's EN raids to join, which was never the case in the old days pre-bypass timers. Be careful what you wish for it might actually harm the game. If you want to stretch raids out I suggest using a multi pronged compromise, some carrots and some sticks. Not this forum rage inducing proposal. Last edited by MeliCat; 11-10-2014 at 09:41 PM. Reason: their they're gah! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 66. Community Member MeliCat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Andoris* View Post If you don't want to impact peoples progress towards 20th lists... I would recommend a two month notice (enough time for 20 completions without bypasses) should be a fair solution. Quote Originally Posted by *Andoris* View Post . Sorry Ash but I think you are totally out of touch. 2 months is not enough. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 67. Community Member MeliCat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oh and I'll just comment on access to EE raids too while we're at it. I've done Fire Peaks on EE once - just because Omni were running it and I happened to be up at 3am and they had a space and took pity on me as no one was joining my run for EH. That's the only EE run I've done of TDW, Peaks, MoD. CITW I've done EE a few times when I was in a top end raiding guild. So for me and this conversation we are only talking about EH. And we already do EH as standard for Peaks and TDW to stave off boredom and because people don't want to lose their streaks. I imagine that MoD will go the same way. FoT is almost at running EE standard. CITW no one cares about sadly (I still think it's kinda fun and love the art work) and fortunately recall still exists. Every raid less than that people will give a go at EE or HE unless they are looking for specific things (eg LoB) IF they have the players to do so. SOOOOO... this *entire* thread then becomes totally about EE doesn't it? In which case you are dealing with a *tiny* fraction of the population who do EE peaks, EE TDW and EE MoD and one often repeated comment of theirs that they are vocal about. While I do agree with them and think that they should be rewarded it would be fairer if the whole population benefits from these sorts of changes instead of just a few. In which case I'm pretty unimpressed with this thread as being extremely elitist and not actually offering any real solutions to the raid problems that we've told you about again and again and again. And on that note I'm out of here unless you start addressing whole community concerns. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 68. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I was slightly off, your original proposal was a random item at 20th run. Which equals +5% So, original drops rates are: EN = X / EH = 2X? / EE = 3X plus a choice of items on a list Proposal by Devs originally would be: EN = {X*6}+5% / EH = {2X*6}+5% / EE = {3X*6}+5% Where only God and the Devs can guess what X is. Then Varg wants to barter and said, what numbers would you like to see. Indicating, the Devs are willing to work back and forth. Then No Worries says, it very likely to be EE drop rate = EN drop rate *3 Then No Worries says, it would be very similar to what the current quest drops rates are; forum posts indicate they are happy with these drop rates. I see no linkies to possible numbers/posts/infor here. So, beside coloring me confused...I'll try to plug in the original formula and barter with it. EN = {X*6}+5% / EH = {2X*6}+5% / EE = {3X*6}+5% Assuming X=1% New Drops proposed possibly: EN = {(1)*6}+5% / EH = {2)1)*6}+5% / EE = {3(1)*6}+5% EN = 11% / EH = 17% / EE = 23% which seems too low on the normal side if we are giving up twentieth list. Assuming these are considered possibly low and bartering is possible, then: Changing X to equal 1.6 EN = 14.6% / EH = 24.2% / EE = 33.8% which seems too high on the elite side. What about X=1.5? EN = 14% / EH = 23% / EE = 32% Hmm...I have no clue how that compares to quest drop rates...but I do know quest don't have 20th lists. However, they do have a random item granted after doing four quests. That means the starting drop rate for all difficulties is 25%. Orchard Quest Drop rates are {where X = drop rate}: EN = X + 25% / EH = 2X + 25% / EE = 3X + 25% Honestly, this is a little high, regardless of what X equals for the Mark of Death type raid. However you did say your proposals were less than thus. It was past Devs that went Elitist Mentality by dropping CitW chest drop rates to 0.001%ish That is what painted you into the "lets only run stuff on normal" and can you blame us? Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-10-2014 at 10:57 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 69. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Major Question that factors into all this (don't answer if you don't want to): Rumor has it that you up drop rates at first then reduce them later on. This would dramatically affect above discussion. Is this true? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 70. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The reason for that is because on average, people would then *obtain the item in ~10 runs* which is twice as fast as 20 runs needed for the guarantee now. ... Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I think the reason this is hitting people so hard is because they currently have a 100% guarantee and are afraid of the worst case scenarios (however statistically unlikely) OK, you've thrown a hard number ("10 runs") in there, and I'm going to run with it. HOW statistically unlikely is it? If it's probability 1/2 that I have my desired item in 10 runs, it's 1/4 that I still don't have it at 20. And 1/8 that I still don't have it at 30. 1/16 that I still don't have the single specific item I'm looking for after 40 runs. It's not twice as fast for *the 25% of folks for whom it's slower*. Or the 1/16th of all your raiders who are going to be ticked they still haven't pulled what they're looking for even after twice as many runs as now. The fact that other people got lucky and pulled it sooner isn't much consolation. Like I said much earlier in the thread, having the same, or even somewhat better, *average* isn't very compelling when you're making that statistical worst case much worse and much more common. EDIT: If anyone's curious, that "10 runs" translates into the probability of getting a specific item you want on any given run at 6.6967% (Though if there were 9 items, and if drop rate is triple on Elite, people would often be seeing multiple named items dropping to them on Elite runs. [An average of 1.8 items.] Are you guys are going to raise drop rates even that much? Though, as above, it will take a significant portion of your player base LONGER to get a desired item even with these quite-high numbers? I'm really skeptical that having total named loot dropping like candy on Elite, while still being much harder to get SPECIFIC named loot, on Normal, is an improvement for the game.) Last edited by SirValentine; 11-10-2014 at 11:10 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 71. DDO Players Council ishr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I think there is some confusion of my original post. Currently Normal and Elite chances are not the same. I said that they would both be increased by something like 6x which would make their gap the same but both be 6x more likely to drop as before. That means you would still be more likely to get an item on Elite than on Normal. And without the 20th reward list as a backup, it would be more likely for players who could run Elite to do so since they are more likely to get an item. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post In any change it would most likely be that elite has a drop rate at least 3x higher than Normal. i am either terribly bad at explaining or you didn't take a look at the post i linked. the relative drop rate remains the same. key word here is *_relative_*. assuming the content itself is not changed, there is no reason for a change from the status quo. put more plainly, if your objective is to get people off EN, this will fail. take note, i'm not saying people won't get more loot if you sextuple the drop rate, i'm saying that you will fail to achieve your stated objective. of course the general pattern in the past is launch stuff as is, wait for the community backlash, and then go back and fix it. this might actually be a less-time-consuming way of proving my point than trying to rehash an argument which has been posted and reposted at least 100 times by the endgame community. the irony of this approach is that would make the PC completely superfluous, seeing as our job has been relegated to filtering out the terribad ideas before they go public. Last edited by ishr; 11-10-2014 at 11:35 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 72. World Designer NoWorries Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post Major Question that factors into all this (don't answer if you don't want to): Rumor has it that you up drop rates at first then reduce them later on. This would dramatically affect above discussion. Is this true? Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post There would be zero point in doing that. This comes more from the perception where more people are hitting the new content hard and thus there are more runs = more items showing up. That rush dies down which means fewer runs and fewer items being created. We don't change the rates after launch (unless there is a specific rebalance of content which would be announced) because 1) it gains nothing, 2) it takes time and 3) the loot tables have to be retested when the numbers are changed Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post OK, you've thrown a hard number ("10 runs") in there, and I'm going to run with it. Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post HOW statistically unlikely is it? I was responding to your hypothetical where the item you were looking for had an 11% drop rate. A 10% drop rate means an average of 1 in 10 runs to drop (which is easier to talk about than an 11% chance being a 1 in 9.091 average). You've already shown the math for what the probability is that you'd have the item after 20 runs (without including the extra chance of getting it in whatever the new 20th reward list structure would be). The 1 in 10 had nothing to do with what our plans our, just a discussion of your example. Yes, after 20 runs you are at 90.5% which is less than 100. However, you are far more likely to have it after 10 runs than you were before (again in your example). That's the other side of the coin. It is true that without a guaranteed 100%, the drop will never hit 100% probability. However, every run will be far more likely to drop the item than before. Which makes it hard to call it a nerf since more people would be getting the given item before 20 runs compared to the old system. Again, this isn't about punishing everyday players and adopting an elitist mentality. Under the new system the plan would be that players on normal would see similar results to now (this is variable due to the fact that the fewer items in the raid/the more items you're interested in, the more beneficial the new system is). Hard would see a bit better, and elite would see even better. This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. If not, Normal should be similar to what it was before. Another part that is muddling this is that I did a two part OP, part 1 on the system itself and part 2 on if it should be applied to existing raids. I think some people are very caught up in the changing of existing raids which wouldn't have to happen. This can be a change to raids going forward with all existing raids staying exactly the way they are. It is probably better at first to assume old raids will stay the same so that the merits of a change going forward can be figured out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 73. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good point there, Valentine. Question now is what is meant by obtain the item in ~10 runs ? Are they referring to an item or a desired item? If they mean a random item in 10 runs on EN, that translates to 10% If the reference was EN? My rough, rough guess on Thunderhelm raids is that you have about a 30~40% decent chance to pull one item during your 20 runs. Since 5% would be an item, a bit less than half of that would 2%ish, or a bit less. If you take that 1.X% and multiply it by 6 then you are homing in on 10% on EN. Since EE = 3X EN then EE = 30% drop rate. EH remains unknown but is assumed to be mid point although EH is less than mid point verses EE in difficulty. Assume EH = 20% So, Orchard quests might be a bit higher than 10% / 20% / 30% , which seem likely given what I have seen while pulling half the loot I need. If we are talking about gaining the item you want without rolling on it, then the % is much higher. In which case, my numbers are all off. So, the 20th single random item, needs to be factored in as well. At this point it seems part of the bargaining. So, subject of debate is: 10% / 20% / 30% good enough to let go of the 20th list? Whether is correct numbers or not, good question to ask ourselves. A new player needs raid items to function, we cannot keep raid gear out of reach. I find these numbers too low, but not so low that I would turn down bartering to sweeten them up. As an aside, if you ever feel a need to rebalance Spellcasters due to the spirally hit points of monsters, considering offering shard and seal exchange in the Demon Sands. That would be all it takes to keep spellcasters viable for level 30 cap. Cheers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 74. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post i am either terribly bad at explaining or you didn't take a look at the post i linked. the relative drop rate remains the same. key word here is *_relative_*. assuming the content itself is not changed, there is no reason for a change from the status quo. put more plainly, if your objective is to get people off EN, this will fail. of course the general pattern in the past is launch stuff as is, wait for the community backlash, and then go back and fix it. this might actually be a less-time-consuming way of proving my point than trying to rehash an argument which has been posted and reposted at least 100 times by the endgame community. the irony of this approach is that would make the PC completely superfluous. Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post The problem is that ALL of the drop rates are so low, that in the span of 20 runs, none of them really matters on any difficulty. This in turn means that the most efficient solution is to always run normal to get to the 20th reward list as fast as possible. Without a 20th reward list at all, it comes down to what is the fastest rate of rewards. So it in turn becomes how much longer does EE take than EN. If EE is 3x as likely to give a reward than EN, then the player has to be able to run more than 3 complete EN runs in the time it would take them to run 1 EE run in order for EN to still be the most efficient route. How much faster it is to complete raids on EN vs EE is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, as maybe it is faster to run 3 ENs than to run 1 EE and therefore a 3x1 ration for loot chance isn't enough. That is exactly what we are trying to do, find the right spread of loot chances to 20th reward list amounts that makes the right choice to play on the difficulty you can handle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 75. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post There would be zero point in doing that. This comes more from the perception where more people are hitting the new content hard and thus there are more runs = more items showing up. That rush dies down which means fewer runs and fewer items being created. We don't change the rates after launch (unless there is a specific rebalance of content which would be announced) because 1) it gains nothing, 2) it takes time and 3) the loot tables have to be retested when the numbers are changed Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Any rumor busted, thanks!!! I was responding to your hypothetical where the item you were looking for had an 11% drop rate. A 10% drop rate means an average of 1 in 10 runs to drop (which is easier to talk about than an 11% chance being a 1 in 9.091 average). You've already shown the math for what the probability is that you'd have the item after 20 runs (without including the extra chance of getting it in whatever the new 20th reward list structure would be). The 1 in 10 had nothing to do with what our plans our, just a discussion of your example. Yes, after 20 runs you are at 90.5% which is less than 100. However, you are far more likely to have it after 10 runs than you were before (again in your example). That's the other side of the coin. It is true that without a guaranteed 100%, the drop will never hit 100% probability. However, every run will be far more likely to drop the item than before. Which makes it hard to call it a nerf since more people would be getting the given item before 20 runs compared to the old system. An 11% drop rate is the bottom edge of what I would like to see. I consider 14% perfect, but 11% makes me ponder. Again, this isn't about punishing everyday players and adopting an elitist mentality. Under the new system the plan would be that players on normal would see similar results to now (this is variable due to the fact that the fewer items in the raid/the more items you're interested in, the more beneficial the new system is). Hard would see a bit better, and elite would see even better. That is a good game plan. This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. If not, Normal should be similar to what it was before. A good philosophy. Another part that is muddling this is that I did a two part OP, part 1 on the system itself and part 2 on if it should be applied to existing raids. I think some people are very caught up in the changing of existing raids which wouldn't have to happen. This can be a change to raids going forward with all existing raids staying exactly the way they are. It is probably better at first to assume old raids will stay the same so that the merits of a change going forward can be figured out. Wise approach. Looking back, many raids don't really depend upon the 20th list system. Fixing Cleansers, shard/seal/scroll exchange, etc would be all that is required for most. Plus the older raids are more run for XP anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 76. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The problem is that ALL of the drop rates are so low, that in the span of 20 runs, none of them really matters on any difficulty. This in turn means that the most efficient solution is to always run normal to get to the 20th reward list as fast as possible. Of course. Without a 20th reward list at all, it comes down to what is the fastest rate of rewards. So it in turn becomes how much longer does EE take than EN. If EE is 3x as likely to give a reward than EN, then the player has to be able to run more than 3 complete EN runs in the time it would take them to run 1 EE run in order for EN to still be the most efficient route. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post You also have to factor in Raid Bypass Timers. Same amount of time then the least amount of Bypasses wins. How much faster it is to complete raids on EN vs EE is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, as maybe it is faster to run 3 ENs than to run 1 EE and therefore a 3x1 ration for loot chance isn't enough. Hmm...assuming the group could do either difficulty? Failure is terrible time waster. Assuming the group ran the EN back to back with 3 minute break. I don't think it would be faster to run 3 ENs instead of 1 EE unless the group struggled or failed. I am not sure it would be slower. I think a group would pick EE with significant drop rate. The actual drop rate would matter too: For example 1% / 2% / 3% = net gain of 2% is not worth EE. But 11% / 22% / 33% = makes one pause. That is exactly what we are trying to do, find the right spread of loot chances to 20th reward list amounts that makes the right choice to play on the difficulty you can handle. I will counter offer with 13% / 26% / 39% I would take that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 77. *Community Manager* Cordovan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post Major Question that factors into all this (don't answer if you don't want to): Rumor has it that you up drop rates at first then reduce them later on. This would dramatically affect above discussion. Is this true? Quote Originally Posted by *Silverleafeon* View Post No, this has never been true (for at least as long as I've been working here, which I notice just now happens to be four years as of today!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 78. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post No, this has never been true (for at least as long as I've been working here, which I notice just now happens to be four years as of today!) Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday, Pappa Cordovan, Happy Birthday to you! PS Thanks for the reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 79. DDO Players Council April_Kinslayer ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post No, this has never been true (for at least as long as I've been working here, which I notice just now happens to be four years as of today!) Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post First of all, congrats on the anniversary Cordovan. But secondly, are y'all sure there isn't some code that's making this true? My guildies and I all hit new content hard the first couple of days because we've all experienced the drop rates go from pretty darned good the first day or two, to almost non-existent after that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 80. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I was responding to your hypothetical... Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Ah, OK. Wasn't immediately obvious to me. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The 1 in 10 had nothing to do with what our plans Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post OK. So what are your plans? That number I was using was as what I thought of as a ridiculously high drop rate: guaranteed item every Normal run. And even with that, 25% of people are still worse off, and potentially much worse off. Are your plans actually higher even than my silly scenario? Or are lower, and even a larger portion of people would be worse off? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post ...makes it hard to call it a nerf since more people would be getting the given item before 20 runs compared to the old system. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Sorry, no. If you're one of the 25% of players for whom it would take LONGER, the fact that 50% of OTHER players get it sooner is no consolation. To those 25%, it's very, very easy to call it a nerf. And to 100% who have no idea ahead of time whether they are going to be lucky enough to avoid being in that 25%, it's easy to call it a nerf. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. If not, Normal should be similar to what it was before. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I am all for that goal, and have yet to see any reason why messing with 20th lists in whatever fashion is being proposed as the solution. How about just upping the drop rates on Hard/Elite to whatever level you deem appropriate, and call it a day? Why complicate things? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 81. Community Member MeliCat ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I was responding to your hypothetical where the item you were looking for had an 11% drop rate. A 10% drop rate means an average of 1 in 10 runs to drop (which is easier to talk about than an 11% chance being a 1 in 9.091 average). You've already shown the math for what the probability is that you'd have the item after 20 runs (without including the extra chance of getting it in whatever the new 20th reward list structure would be). The 1 in 10 had nothing to do with what our plans our, just a discussion of your example. Yes, after 20 runs you are at 90.5% which is less than 100. However, you are far more likely to have it after 10 runs than you were before (again in your example). That's the other side of the coin. It is true that without a guaranteed 100%, the drop will never hit 100% probability. However, every run will be far more likely to drop the item than before. Which makes it hard to call it a nerf since more people would be getting the given item before 20 runs compared to the old system. Again, this isn't about punishing everyday players and adopting an elitist mentality. Under the new system the plan would be that players on normal would see similar results to now (this is variable due to the fact that the fewer items in the raid/the more items you're interested in, the more beneficial the new system is). Hard would see a bit better, and elite would see even better. This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. If not, Normal should be similar to what it was before. Another part that is muddling this is that I did a two part OP, part 1 on the system itself and part 2 on if it should be applied to existing raids. I think some people are very caught up in the changing of existing raids which wouldn't have to happen. This can be a change to raids going forward with all existing raids staying exactly the way they are. It is probably better at first to assume old raids will stay the same so that the merits of a change going forward can be figured out. I would just like to remind people that when we're talking about percentages, we only see a percentage as the correct amount if we take a large enough sample size. So if a sample size of 1000 then we may well see that say the chance of getting an epic diadem is 2% or whatever it is. I would like to point out that people rarely get a chance to run a raid 1000 times. Which is why people after 4 years still haven't got a SOS shard. "This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. " Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Look, seriously, (and you haven't addressed me in a single post yet so I doubt you will now), do you really think that loot is the main driving factor that people run these raids on EE? The only way that this becomes an incentive is if you remove the 20th guarantee. So it *is* an elitist thread. It would be much better if you could introduce some other incentive. +6 tomes would have been one... except in your wisdom you decided to sell them in the store. And removing talking about older raids says to me that you are not interested in trying to talk about raiding as a community builder as a whole and that is disappointing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 82. Hero Knight of Movember Hafeal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *MeliCat* View Post Look, seriously, (and you haven't addressed me in a single post yet so I doubt you will now), do you really think that loot is the main driving factor that people run these raids on EE? The only way that this becomes an incentive is if you remove the 20th guarantee. So it *is* an elitist thread ... Quote Originally Posted by *MeliCat* View Post You are right, of course, it is an elitist topic. As I said earlier, nothing in this thread is helpful to a 1st life or casual player. It is neither helpful to a vet, like me, with characters on all servers but who does not concentrate on maxxing out 1 or 2 characters. It is focused on somehow on appeasing end game raiding types - to give them a reason to run EE. Why? Chance at rare raid loot. Well, that is thought 'cause apparently ain't no one actually running EE for "challenge". But the game is too easy. This focus on a particular player base at a latter portion of the game to the utter and complete neglect of new and returning players to DDO and to freshen up the rest of the darn game is just simply appalling and a blinding disregard to players who do not focus on issues like this. Oh wait, been like this going on 5 years now, shame on me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 83. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I would like to say that if they make a NEW raid that has 1 item on the 20th list and elevated drop rates, that this would make it MUCH more palatable from a "forum rage" standpoint. If it was successful you could go back slowly do it for other raids. It would also allow healthy A/B testing (how much do EN LFM's for the raid disappear (my guess is they would all but completely go away), how much more often does EE get run than other raids, my guess is almost everyone does EH) IMO this would be the safe course of action and much prefered over screwing with older raids. However, an even better idea would be the make CITW work like this (give pre-warning to the tiny % of players who are theoretically currently trying to get a 20th list no one runs this raid so this shouldn't be hard) and polish the loot (add some new items, specifically one handed caster item, and an augment or two) to get people running it more: instant test bed, and better still the tiny 3 raid end game becomes a 4 raid end game. Two birds with one stone... a "no brainer" should be as easy as *snaps fingers* (just being a smart ass Varg seriously ) Last edited by IronClan; 11-11-2014 at 05:25 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 84. Community Member Flavilandile ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post This comes more from the perception where more people are hitting the new content hard and thus there are more runs = more items showing up. That rush dies down which means fewer runs and fewer items being created. We don't change the rates after launch (unless there is a specific rebalance of content which would be announced) because 1) it gains nothing, 2) it takes time and 3) the loot tables have to be retested when the numbers are changed Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Drop Rates have been changed in the past... That's enough to be an issue when the 20th list comes into play. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I was responding to your hypothetical where the item you were looking for had an 11% drop rate. A 10% drop rate means an average of 1 in 10 runs to drop (which is easier to talk about than an 11% chance being a 1 in 9.091 average). You've already shown the math for what the probability is that you'd have the item after 20 runs (without including the extra chance of getting it in whatever the new 20th reward list structure would be). The 1 in 10 had nothing to do with what our plans our, just a discussion of your example. Yes, after 20 runs you are at 90.5% which is less than 100. However, you are far more likely to have it after 10 runs than you were before (again in your example). That's the other side of the coin. It is true that without a guaranteed 100%, the drop will never hit 100% probability. However, every run will be far more likely to drop the item than before. Which makes it hard to call it a nerf since more people would be getting the given item before 20 runs compared to the old system. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Can you certify that you will have 90% chances to get a Yellow Dopant out of Shroud in 20 runs ? No, because the drop rate is so low that even 36 times will ends up at a few bits of a percent. ( last time I heard of it's drop rate it was something like 0,00001% ) Trust me, out of 500+ Chests ( that's 50 runs with 0 people average ) on Elite I have not seen one drop... The only ones I got were from the 20th reward list. ( last time I heard of it's drop rate it was something like 0,00001%, so even by multiplying it by 1000, you get a 0,01% drop rate which is still very low ) As long as we talk of multiplying unknown numbers all the multipliers means nothing... If you really want to sell us the 20th list removal you will have to come up with the actual drop rate values on file so that we know they will end up decent. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Again, this isn't about punishing everyday players and adopting an elitist mentality. Under the new system the plan would be that players on normal would see similar results to now (this is variable due to the fact that the fewer items in the raid/the more items you're interested in, the more beneficial the new system is). Hard would see a bit better, and elite would see even better. Well this thread is all about elitism... It's these players that breeze through the content in a matter of hours, then chain farm the raids until they have the items they want/need, and then comes on the forum whining that the game is too easy and that it doesn't have enough content. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post For some more casual player the 20th list is their only chance to get a single decent item out of a raid... and it's going to take them a long time... I'm not even starting on forcing the Epic Elite difficulty as being THE DIFFICULTY to run ALL THE CONTENT by upping the drop rate... because that will only interest the forementioned elitists, as more casuals won't be able to handle it.... if they don't have a good supporting guild those casuals will be completely shut down from raids, as Raid leader in his right mind will recruit people that can't survive/support at EE difficulty. People don't run raids on Epic Elite ? They repfer to run them Normal ? It has been that way for ages... For example : when Cap was 16 Shroud was ran once Elite by my guild to prove that we could do it. After that we went back to fast Shroud on Normal to get the ingredients we needed. It has been that way for all the Raids... And that's what we are still doing now... ( ok, now for old stuff like Velah, Chrono, ... the Default Difficulty is Epic Elite, but for MoD, we are still working on doing it EE... once we have done it EE once, we will go back to doing it EN/EH [ if the party is solid enough for EH ] ) Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post This is for the fact that there should be incentive to running elite, if you can run it. If not, Normal should be similar to what it was before. Another part that is muddling this is that I did a two part OP, part 1 on the system itself and part 2 on if it should be applied to existing raids. I think some people are very caught up in the changing of existing raids which wouldn't have to happen. This can be a change to raids going forward with all existing raids staying exactly the way they are. It is probably better at first to assume old raids will stay the same so that the merits of a change going forward can be figured out. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post You'll just get lots of rage and many quitters, but it won't change much... Elite takes a lot of time and ressources... In the time it takes to run any raid on Elite you can run the same raid at least twice on Normal... People will go for more easier completions anyway... They will just rage that the 20th list was killed... Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The problem is that ALL of the drop rates are so low, that in the span of 20 runs, none of them really matters on any difficulty. This in turn means that the most efficient solution is to always run normal to get to the 20th reward list as fast as possible. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Well they have been that way for ages... Remember that you are dealing with players that have been at it for 9 years.... The 20th list is the way to go, if you kill it completely, you just kill any incentive to run raids.... Even if you up the drop rates by several 1000% ( since we have no real drop rate values we have no clue of what 33/66% or whatever would do ) Another thing to consider : The 20th list will give you THE Item(s) you want, while the chest won't. So even if you get lucky and an item drops for you in the 20 raids, you can be unlucky and the dropped item(s) you want won't drop... you know you'll be able to get it in the 20th list. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Without a 20th reward list at all, it comes down to what is the fastest rate of rewards. So it in turn becomes how much longer does EE take than EN. If EE is 3x as likely to give a reward than EN, then the player has to be able to run more than 3 complete EN runs in the time it would take them to run 1 EE run in order for EN to still be the most efficient route. How much faster it is to complete raids on EN vs EE is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, as maybe it is faster to run 3 ENs than to run 1 EE and therefore a 3x1 ration for loot chance isn't enough. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post It's a no brainer : It's faster and more ressource efficient to run 3EN than to waste time running 1EE and risk a wipe if the party can't pull it up. With EN you can just pick up almost everybody, while for EE you'll have to be very careful who you let in... If you want people to run Epic Elite, you will have to give them something that can only be found in Epic Elite ( and go back to the tiered EN, EH, EE loot system that will separate the have and the have not even more ). Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post That is exactly what we are trying to do, find the right spread of loot chances to 20th reward list amounts that makes the right choice to play on the difficulty you can handle. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Then give us the real drop rate values for each item in a given raid as an example so that we work the maths. It doesn't have to be all the raids... If we have one raid with the actual values to work with we will be able to find a solution to your supposed issue. ( I still think there is no issue, and that you're reacting to a small and vocal part of the player base ). Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post No, this has never been true (for at least as long as I've been working here, which I notice just now happens to be four years as of today!) Quote Originally Posted by *Cordovan* View Post It may not have been the case in the last 4 years, but it has been known to happen... and in some cases drop rates have been nerfed several time... hard... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 85. DDO Players Council ishr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The problem is that ALL of the drop rates are so low, that in the span of 20 runs, none of them really matters on any difficulty. This in turn means that the most efficient solution is to always run normal to get to the 20th reward list as fast as possible. Without a 20th reward list at all, it comes down to what is the fastest rate of rewards. So it in turn becomes how much longer does EE take than EN. If EE is 3x as likely to give a reward than EN, then the player has to be able to run more than 3 complete EN runs in the time it would take them to run 1 EE run in order for EN to still be the most efficient route. How much faster it is to complete raids on EN vs EE is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, as maybe it is faster to run 3 ENs than to run 1 EE and therefore a 3x1 ration for loot chance isn't enough. That is exactly what we are trying to do, find the right spread of loot chances to 20th reward list amounts that makes the right choice to play on the difficulty you can handle. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post after reading this, i'm certain that you did not read the post i linked... it's not very long and it will improve your analysis. Last edited by ishr; 11-11-2014 at 12:51 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 86. DDO Players Council Kwyjibo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you run raids? Do you run raids out of channel or guild? Does your collected data show group make up (made up of guilds, channels and then LFMs)? When I put a group together, I first ask guild, then channel, and then the LFM. I can tell you, in my experience we almost always fill from the first 2 sources and so have very few spots left open for PUGs. The reason I ask? It is very easy to see the difference between the grinders and the casuals and you don't seem to grasp the difference. Further I will tell you, having a couple of unprepared/under-prepared players makes little difference on normal runs, whereas a couple of unprepared/under-prepared players can make the raid fail on EE. It has been my experience, and our guild runs this way, that we exclude PUGs and would rather short-man rather than take a chance when running harder content/raids. It's no secret that I am a proponent of scaled drop rates/loot for running content on harder difficulties, but that doesn't mean I think the folks that don't have the chance to play as much as I do should get boned out of getting raid loot in a timely manner. Leave the 20 in and look elsewhere to provide incentive to run on harder difficulties. *And no I'm not trying to call out a developer here, I am asking the questions honestly so I can try to understand the point of reference ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 87. Community Member Crispin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Hafeal* View Post This focus on a particular player base at a latter portion of the game to the utter and complete neglect of new and returning players to DDO and to freshen up the rest of the darn game is just simply appalling and a blinding disregard to players who do not focus on issues like this. Oh wait, been like this going on 5 years now, shame on me. Quote Originally Posted by *Hafeal* View Post Yes..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 88. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think this would work, pondering it (still bartering for 13/26/39) I would shift my thinking to running raids on EH default instead of EN, and considering the party strength for a possible EE. Even a failed attempt at EE followed by a success could be better than three ENs due to chest ransack and timer usage. Consideration for current new comers ~ Orchard and Thunderhelm provides highly superior choices even if the level cap was raised to 30. If this was applied to a new raid, newcomers would still be ok, due to those existing raids. It would actually change my thinking of raids more towards how I consider quests. I rarely quest on EN, choosing between EH and EE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 89. World Designer NoWorries ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We do appreciate all of the feedback on this. And from that feedback we are currently not going forward with these changes. For now, the raids will stay as they are and we can visit new possibilities for improvements in the future. Thank you for being open with us and letting us know your thoughts. There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. – adapted from Elbert Hubbard ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 90. Community Member SirValentine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post For now, the raids will stay as they are and we can visit new possibilities for improvements in the future. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post If that means you're not messing with 20th lists, good. If that means you're just going to ignore the difficulties-and-drop-rates issue that you and the player base has identified, bad. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post The end goal of all of this is to try to make it worth running raids on hard and elite if those are the difficulties you can succeed at. If the thought is that the 20th reward list shouldn't change, what is another method that would be possible to implement that would encourage players to run the harder difficulties? Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post I agree with your goal, disagreed with scrapping the 20th list. Why isn't the simple, (relatively) easy way to meet your goal just to raise the drop rates on the harder difficulties? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 91. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post We do appreciate all of the feedback on this. And from that feedback we are currently not going forward with these changes. For now, the raids will stay as they are and we can visit new possibilities for improvements in the future. Thank you for being open with us and letting us know your thoughts. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Probably for the better, however I think you guys should try this in a future raid as a test bed, or to CitW as a means of reviving interest in the deadest raid in the game. I've been paying attention for the last month, I've seen dozens of eChrono's at least 1 hound and VOD, hundreds of VON5-6's dozens of FoT's a couple Reavers, and 2 whole Titans one of which I joined as I always try to just for the sake of fun... The only raids I've not seen run in the last month are TOD and CitW, one has totally obsolete loot that is also broken (PrE set bonuses), painful flagging and boots requirements, and the other has arguably the best ETR'ing weapons, a still Semi-shiny set bonus with sought after +3 insightful augments (one of the few ways to get +3 Insightful stat bonuses) YET no one runs it... because you guys gave away all the loot. Polish the loot a tiny bit non retro-active (on fresh drops lower the ML to ML21 and add a +1[W] Tier 4 comm upgrade), up the comm's drop rates to FoT-like add a couple unique augments to the loot table and then make the changes to loot drop rates and 20th list only having 1 item and test it out. Please? We need more stuff to do guys. Last edited by IronClan; 11-11-2014 at 10:19 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 92. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post If that means you're not messing with 20th lists, good. If that means you're just going to ignore the difficulties-and-drop-rates issue that you and the player base has identified, bad. Quote Originally Posted by *SirValentine* View Post I agree with your goal, disagreed with scrapping the 20th list. Why isn't the simple, (relatively) easy way to meet your goal just to raise the drop rates on the harder difficulties? Agree with SirVal why throw the baby out with the bath water? Though I'd love to see the proposal tested on a CitW polish pass, it should be noted that simply increasing the chances for drops on Hard and then again more than that on EE, might actually be the best compromise that doesn't make Normal runs extinct. The truth is the more I think about this the more I think having EN raids in the LFM panel is actually a good thing... No one is "selective" when filling an EN PUG. It's the raid timers being spamable that's a bad thing... if it was restricted to even 5 a night per raid that would eliminate the worst of it and spread the chain runs out. While still giving SOME value to running on EN. I would also like to see EE only augments in all Raids... just make sure they are not dupe-able however you might achieve that (make them exclusive or remake them as unique items with an item ID?). It's not lost on me that the new raid and Quests have no new augments As SirVal says I hope you guys are still willing to puzzle at ways to improve the situation... the 20th list idea while it would have worked (overly well) just wasn't going to be healthy for the game, it was a sledge hammer fix for a screw driver problem. Last edited by IronClan; 11-11-2014 at 10:05 PM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 93. Community Member Flavilandile Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post We do appreciate all of the feedback on this. And from that feedback we are currently not going forward with these changes. For now, the raids will stay as they are and we can visit new possibilities for improvements in the future. Thank you for being open with us and letting us know your thoughts. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Don't completely kill the idea though. It has some interest... It's just that unless we have ( at least in my case ) hard numbers to see the impact the changes will have it's safer to stay as is. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post Probably for the better, however*I think you guys should try this in a future raid as a test bed, or to CitW as a means of reviving interest in the deadest raid in the game.* I've been paying attention for the last month, I've seen dozens of eChrono's at least 1 hound and VOD, hundreds of VON5-6's dozens of FoT's a couple Reavers, and 2 whole Titans one of which I joined as I always try to just for the sake of fun... The only raids I've not seen run in the last month are TOD and CitW, one has totally obsolete loot that is also broken (PrE set bonuses), painful flagging and boots requirements, and the other has arguably the best ETR'ing weapons, a still Semi-shiny set bonus with sought after +3 insightful augments (one of the few ways to get +3 Insightful stat bonuses) YET no one runs it... because you guys gave away all the loot. Polish the loot a tiny bit non retro-active (on fresh drops lower the ML to ML21 and add a +1[W] Tier 4 comm upgrade), up the comm's drop rates to FoT-like add a couple unique augments to the loot table and then make the changes to loot drop rates and 20th list only having 1 item and test it out. Please? We need more stuff to do guys. Emphasis Mine, I agree with the statement... Instead of putting it everywhere use CiTW or a new raid to test it. Then once people are used to the the system with that raid you can extend it slowly to the rest. Quote Originally Posted by *IronClan* View Post I agree with the ToD issue... But I disagree with the CiTW issue partially... Yes the loot was given away, but it shouldn't make it a dead raid ( there's still people looking for the items ). What makes it a dead raid are all the painful mechanisms and the poor drop rate at the end for a long and tedious quest. For Commendation farming people go to Fot, it's quicker faster and it gives more commendations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 94. Community Member IronClan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *Flavilandile* View Post CiTW issue partially... Yes the loot was given away, but it shouldn't make it a dead raid ( there's still people looking for the items ). What makes it a dead raid are all the painful mechanisms and the poor drop rate at the end for a long and tedious quest. For Commendation farming people go to Fot, it's quicker faster and it gives more commendations. Quote Originally Posted by *Flavilandile* View Post I'll agree that CitW being painful and long discourages people from wanting to run it... but it had 3 to 6 LFM's a night until the DAY they gave us raiders reward boxes... and then it fell completely off the map and has been completely off the map since... Topically (amazing coincidence) last night I started to respec Ironrooster into a stick build (until I can pull the SoS shard), using Sireth but rooster is too new to have gotten a raiders box, and turns out also didn't have a LR20, I figured I could accomplish what I wanted with a +3 and a +1 heart (12 monk already so just need to turn 8 fighter into 4 fighter 4 rogue)... So i asked in channel if anyone wanted to roll some CitW's over the next couple weeks and one person expressed an interest. Discouraged; I then looked over my alts and realized I had another high level Bladeforged with a LR20 AND a raiders box left, sitting not doing anything interesting since Epic Phospher did not become "a thing" (Ironicarus, say hello if you see him), so I wiped the figurative sweat off my brow and said "whew.. need to farm the least popular raid in the game for a Sireth narrowly avoided". So there you have it, gods honest truth I am not making this up (mayhap someone here read it in channel last night and can back me up, we also talked about Stout Oak Walking stick, and how cool Rhal's Might will look glammered), that's a minimum of 20 LFM's for CitW that would have been up on Thelanis between 9:30 and 3:00 in the morning for a couple weeks at least. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 95. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post We do appreciate all of the feedback on this. And from that feedback we are currently not going forward with these changes. For now, the raids will stay as they are and we can visit new possibilities for improvements in the future. Thank you for being open with us and letting us know your thoughts. Quote Originally Posted by *NoWorries* View Post Thank you for listening to us. Cheers. PS I'll assume it was the overall dissatisfaction, as I do feel the Devs came very close to numbers I would be happy with. Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-15-2014 at 06:04 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 96. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you ever revist this, I would take 12/24/36%.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 97. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post Solution: leave 20th rewards alone, adjust drop rates. Quote Originally Posted by *ishr* View Post Assuming that the Devs 11/22/33 ~~ my 12/24/36 proposals are very close in numbers. What would a 20th reward be worth? What number should we subtract from those numbers to create the new set of numbers? Well a random 20th item = 5% So taking the Devs 11/22/33 and subtracting 5% = 6/17/28% But random item does not equal partial/full list. What numbers justifies the difference between the two? Obviously, the Devs and Player Base are going to not agree on said point, however, it could be guessed that the Devs might consider 10% So, taking that number and subtracting from the Devs 11/22/33 we arrive at 1/12/23% However, that places EN raids at less than before. It also raises the EE version quite a bit. It also leaves the Zerg 20 EN version in place. We could go with a modified 20th list (seen in some raids already such as 20th list = 50% of named items regardless of list size, then increase the numbers on hard and elite. Since in paragraph above we have close to X% / 10% / 20%, we could try thus figures out: New raid situation: 20th list remains but only grants half {rounded up} of full named list regardless of size. New drop rates are 5% / 10% / 20% I realize this is not the 3xEN = EE formula but I think it fits better. If you really want to adjust to 3xEN = EE, you could try: *20th list remains but only grants half {rounded up} of full named list regardless of size. New drop rates are 6.66% / 13.33% / 20% * Last edited by Silverleafeon; 11-17-2014 at 03:42 AM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 98. *Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teaching MoD to new players. Tonight ~ 5 failure, then 1 Successful run (39 res scrolls used by me alone in the successful run) And you ask why most people are doing this on EN? Its a raid the future...although heaven knows what will happen when all the wizards get their gear... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 99.*Ultimate Completionist* Silverleafeon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I got it! {maybe} What was the Huge breakthrough to stop the Nx10, Hx1, Ex1, Cx1 experience farming? Bravery Bonus which included first time bonus xp on every difficulty. Later followed by Coms and Heart Seed daily awards. So, transcend this principle to raid chests {and perhaps other chests as well}. Add a daily one time bonus for the first time one opens the/any chest particularly to pull a named item. Possible numbers: N = +2% / H = +4% / E = +6% N = +1% / H = +3% / E = +9% N = +2.5% / H = +5% / E = +10% etc... This encourages a cyclic raid environment while promoting intense raiding grouping. I still feel offering a partial list for the 20th of 50%+ along with increased drop rates is something to consider independently of this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------