Hi Welcome wrote on Oct 1^st, 2011 at 4:17pm:


You must owe Milamber a shit load in royalty fees.

Epoch wrote on Sep 27^th, 2011 at 6:23am:


My campaigns are littered with the tears of broken players who were rofflestomped.

Hi Welcome wrote on Oct 7^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:



One of the characters I was playing while trying out 4.0 was a Human Priestess of Sune (Heartwarder).
Clerics still own the game. She walked through dungeons and had over half the mobs fighting for her. It was pathetic. Boy, they sure fixed the balance issues. Pfft.

Then I tried a fighter chain master. My turn, dead monster. Next?

Dragonborn monk. Forgeddaboutit. Couldn't touch me.

Solo monsters? Soloed by one person is more like it.

And I am not a CharOp type player, nor a basket weaver. My campaigns tend to be high end, but I try to stress character development and role playing in between the combat stuff. If I can do it, I shudder at the thought of what guys like Hi can do.

Quote:


4th edition is trivial to break. Most of the breaks are defensive. Enemies can't hit, can't damage you fast enough to ever kill you, etc. A few are offensive. These tend to be fixed, because killing things in less than 3 hours is not RAI. There's probably still a few around, but really, anyone that wants to grind on a mob for a while to kill it has DDO, where the process only takes a few seconds or maybe a few minutes for bosses and all the math is done for you as you knock down 300k HP 100 at a time or whatever. So I don't really keep up with 4th edition.

At least 3.x hides the true game breakers well enough that you have to actually look for them. Yeah, you can find power characters by accident, but not infinite loops and the like.

And to answer your question Epoch, same way as all the other herpaderpies carriers. Make up some power tripping bullshit to fuck with you for the lulz, as learning the actual rules of the actual game is too much effort for his GIANT MANLY BRAIN to handle.

But back to 3.5. By default, non casters are pretty fucking bad. But unlike PF, they can at least be made decent with enough work. Granted, it's like trying to do a ToD at level 12 - even if you can, it'd take less time and effort to go get 8 more levels and better gear but it is possible. That's something.

It is kind of telling though how much of the problem isn't that being a non caster is bad, but that doing HP damage is bad and being someone who really can't do anything else is what leads to the problem, but not the problem itself.

This led to the following paraphrased exchange:

DM: So... *rolls dice* The berserker does 71 points of damage.
Player: What the fuck, what level is that guy?
DM: 2.
Player: *jaw drop, weird look* That was a crit, right?
DM: Nope!
Player: ...

What's the moral of this story? If you're only going to live a round or two, and likely won't get a chance to act, you had damn well better make any chance you do get count.

Well that and don't let them get multiple buffs up, as that's a violation of the first principle.

Sure, 71 damage is still atypical (20-30 is more common for decent non caster characters at this level) but if you want to show players this isn't normal D&D, where non casters are pinatas to be busted throw a few Berserkers at them.

The target survived by the way (just because the enemy is level 2 doesn't mean the party is).

We are playing in Dark Sun is code for "I am a power tripping douchebag with a small penis, please shatter my GIANT MANLY BRAIN and poor pathetic world".

You know what to do.

That is because 4th edition is written for uncreative, unintelligent fuckwits.

And yet even it is better than Pathfailure, as 4th edition is at least different than what came before. Different and worse in every way, but that's still better than the same except worse in every way.

But a simple script can play 4th edition without ever referencing anything context dependent, like terrain, or the opposition.

If I played a melee I think that would blow everyone out of the water.  I just don't know of any melee builds in 4e that can do half as well as a caster.

Cleavon wrote on Oct 11^th, 2011 at 5:21am:


You say that like you contribute.  Give me some drama to move on and I will.  Until then, 4e is better then the current drama here - which is pretty sad to say the least.

Epoch wrote on Oct 11^th, 2011 at 5:47am:


I only contribute when I see people dragging games systems that are superior to anything else out there through the mud in a pathetic attempt to stroke each other raw over power gaming bullshit.

Drama?  Useless.

Pathfinder?  Trumps 4E, beats out 3.5 by adding to Melees abilities with new and more useful feats, better interpretations of class abilities and the archetype system allowing for more personalized characters.

If your DM is a fuckwit that just derps around while douchebags powergame?  Just step away from the table and go play DDO.  Powergamers paradise.  Just keep your crusty cum stained hands off the table top games!

Epoch wrote on Oct 12^th, 2011 at 4:17am:


Lol. Not exactly. Melee didn't really get flashier. They just got beaten with the nerfbat, and then given lots of makeup so the signs of domestic abuse wouldn't show. It's really sad, especially when some fuckwit like Cleavage over there thinks that they actually came out of this better off. Seriously, the fuckwit thinks melee feats got better. That's a special kind of delusion.

4th edition is entirely worthless as well. But at least it's something different, and not the same car after some crack whores stole it and used it as their base of operations for a few weeks.

Cleavage of course has no answer to this, because he is a basket weaver that can only spew his herpaderpies everywhere, channel ancient Egypt in a manner that does not involve children's card games, and blame the DM and the players because if you don't think this less than worthless gaming system is the bestamest thing ever there must be something wrong with you.

Last I checked, having a functioning brain was not a negative condition. But do us all a favor there Cleavage and Iron Heart Surge your own brain away anyways. If it doesn't return a 404.

But ultimately though, basket weavers can't do anything but press the same tired non points. So I'd much rather talk to people like Epoch, who have things of actual value to say.

You'd be surprised how many adventures can be short manned. When you think about it, it starts making a lot of sense but a lot of adventurers supposedly designed for 4 people you can take 2, maybe 3 from and still just annihilate everything in your way. Epoch probably already knows why, but as a thought exercise I will see if anyone else can figure it out.

That is true. But that isn't why they can be shortmanned easily. If that was all there was to it, going with a smaller party on the same adventure would be harder.

Because CODzilla, a wiz, and  a wtfever can burn through content with save or die save or suck spells, while doing decent melee bashing via buffs.


also, crafting makes the wizard better due to how the xp system works, i.e. make an item spend xp and fall behind a level, you will catch up if not the next fight, then the one after.

Yeah I tend to play down the Wiz/Druid/Cleric when I play one so the group of non power gamers I play with won't get bitchy.