Epoch wrote on Mar 21^st, 2012 at 4:59pm:


I don't despise Paladins, and I will let those that have run with me Judge my ability on a Paladin. No point debating it anymore, we are both assuming different scenarios.

What is this average paladin of yours?

Epoch wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2012 at 4:06am:


One without an Esos and epic gear?

Human 38str

20 bab
14 str
3 DF
4 GH
2 Spectrals/arrowhead
2 ship
5 weapon
-5 PA
= +45 to hit

+4 more vs EO
+7 bard (avg bard song?)
+4 Greater Bane
+8 Improved Destruction
= +68

So vs EO, with a bard, greater bane and someone Improved Destructing you will be fine in Epic Chrono. The bosses are estimated 60-65ac.

Nothing wrong with going KotC while gearing up as most of the good loot is in those raids with EO. It's when you go into the harder Epics it becomes noticable and the ones where you get dispelled (OOB).

Bard and Improved Destruction really help on purple names, but I have been in plenty of raids without both. It's a different topic anyway. Point is, you can't rely on someone else debuffing all the time.


That's my idea of an average Paladin's to hit. Of course a Horc will have a bit more, but less heal amp and less likely to self heal well (actually the avg Paladin of any race doesn't self heal well I notice).

A DoS Pally if built for max str and not tanking (why oh why???) will have the same to hit as raged/double madstone KotC vs non EO. Yet can still cast spells and raise others. If built for ac, probably 3 or 4 less str.

I wouldn't say DoS is average though, it's not very forgiving for a first life/no gear toon.

Horc KotC is probably ideal for a first life to gather gear in raids etc if you plan to TR.

How far off am I from your average Paladin?

My pally has no Esos and no Egear.  All a pally needs for healing is a rank or two in their heal thingy and a superior devotion clickie.  At cap without the clickie you can still get yourself for 74 a pop easy - with a clicky its at 100.  No THF feats means empower heal.  Also, a pally can still wand whip and still easily have 3 LOH - even if Kotc.  There is no excuse for a pally not self healing well.   Also, this is done on a pally with absolutely no healing amp and 1 rank in pally healing enhancements.  A pally not self healing is pretty good sign that they shouldn't be playing a pally. 

No pally should ever start with max str, mine didn't.  Knock that shit down two points and you now have 6 incredibly valuable points to spend elsewhere.  After a couple TR's I would suggest putting str at 17/19(h-orc).  Mine is a first life so that isn't accomplished yet.  One day maybe. 

In the end, pallys are like monks, shitty players or new ones won't play them well.  I think you are mixing that into your area of average pallies.  If you go Kotc you should stick to farming ToD, shroud, echrono, Ev6, and Ered fens.  There really isn't a need for them to anywhere else. 

How can they die? Invis clicky, shadow step, RUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNN!

Running past things I can kill fairly easily is antithetical to my monk's very existence.  It is also the reason I no longer jog past the old folks home in the morning.

Thought on Paladin To Hit issues:

Most players are shitty players playing shitty characters.

Shitty Fighters and Barbarians are less shitty than shitty Paladins because shitty Fighters and Barbarians can actually hit things on a 2+ with Power Attack on while shitty Paladins can't.

Shitty Paladins can self-heal for a little while, but it's not enough to make up for the other problems that come with being a shitty player with a shitty character, so it's much better for a shitty player to make a Fighter or Barbarian.

Maxwell Edison wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2012 at 8:12am:


So you sneak past?

popejubal wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2012 at 9:57am:


Yep that is what I concluded and said above.

Epoch wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2012 at 10:13am:


Arsehole for arseholes sake, I understand.

Epoch wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2012 at 10:13am:


Whatever, ponyboy.

Invelios wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2012 at 11:33am:


If you knew how scary the source of all evil was, you would get tole as well.