So, as I said in the other thread, I had a new build in mind. There were a few things I wanted to change, mainly the destiny, but also the classes and some other things that I will list here. Feedback will be greatly appreciated, I'm certainly not the best character builder around and I'm sure others might see better alternatives or things that I have missed.

I will post the build as it currently is first, and then share the various ideas I had that made it into the build or not.

(Will be all pretty tables like the other one when it is fully completed)


Build

13 Rogue/6 Monk/1 Fighter

Leveling order: Probably 1rogue-6monk-12rogue(with fighter asap somewhere in there when enough BAB for IPS)

Stats: 20 starting dex + all points, enough int for trap skills, rest wherever needed.

Normal Feats
1      Point Blank Shot
3      Completionist
6      Quick Draw
9      Rapid Shot
12      Precise Shot
15      Master of Forms
18      IC: Thrown
21      Improved Sneak Attack
24      Combat Archery
27      Blinding Speed

Monk Feats
1      Shuriken Expertise
2      Precision
6      Dodge/Deflect Arrows/10k Stars

Fighter Feat
1      Improved Precise Shot

Destiny Feats
26      Epic Spellpower: Positive
28      Doubleshot or ??????


Epic Destiny: Fury
Twists: Whirling Wrists + Whisler + Pin/Coccoon

Gear: Still have to figure that out

Enhancements
Kensei
1 *Core 1
3 *Haste Boost
________
0 or 4 AP

Ninja Spy      
1 Basic Ninja
1 Advanced Ninja
1 Shadow Veil
1 Stealthy
2 Sneak Attack
3 Acrobatic
2 Sneak Attack
3 Agility
2 Sneak Attack
2 Sting of the Ninja
2 Dexterity
2 *Dexterity
6 *No Mercy
__________
24 or 28 AP

Shintao      
1 *Bastion of Purity
Mechanic      
1*Arbalester
________
0 or 2 AP

Elf
7 Cores
1 Keen Senses
2 Arcanum
4 Arcane Archer
_____
14 AP

Arcane Archer                               
32 to 41 AP


Ideas

Permanent doubleshot percentage VS Ten Thousand Stars
As you can see in the enhancements, I have various enhancements marked with a star(*). Basically I have two layouts currently. The main one is with 10k stars in mind, which ends up at 80 points. The other is to remove all thosed marked with a star to be able to pick up Master of Imbuement from the AA tree, which would cost 41 points total to reach. No Mercy would not be fully removed though, only one rank. This setup costs 79 points.

Now, why two ideas? Because 10k stars is not permanent, and requires ki to use, which requires ki generation from somewhere. It also completly kills your Doubleshot score for 45 seconds when used. My idea was to maybe eliminate 10k stars completly and go for a permanent Doubleshot alternative.

With the current split, assuming they stack, I could reach a permanent percentage of 37%. 10% from Master of Imbuement, 10% from Doubleshot feat, 8% from Skirmisher Bracers and 9% from epic past lives. Other class/enhancement splits could provide higher numbers, in particular the Killer enhancement from the DWS and Assassin trees, but they would require taking away needed points to reach No Mercy or Arrow of Slaying which are very nice to have. But it could provide a potential +20% Doubleshot, but you need to keep killing things for that.

I am currently leaning towards keeping 10k stars, but if anyone can math this up, Doubleshot could end up being a better option.

Destinies, boss dps, self-healing, etc.
Not going to lie there, boss dps was THE weak spot of the previous build. While Whistler and Pin CC provided excellent damage on trash mobs, there was not much else than normal damage I could do on bosses. It was still pretty decent considering the amount of shurikens but it just wasn't satisfying enough.

Solution? Going for Fury instead? Shiradi still has excellent abilities to take though. Which are reflected in the twists. Whistler and Pin just devastate trash mobs and whirling wrists gives you +60% atk speed.

Fury would have some drawbacks though, as I cannot twist both Pin and Whistler without 8 epic past lives for two more fate points. And even if I do get there, I would have to sacrifice coccoon to get both Pin and Whistler. As it is right now, I'm taking Whistler and giving up Pin. Still not sure how I feel about just having one CC source instead of three (because I also lose Nerve Venom by going with Fury).

But, if I can take both of them eventually with more fate points, how would I self-heal without coccoon? I hate heal scrolls, and they are not very good in emergencies. SF pots? Constant reduction of DEX means less shurikens when using the pots. New healing potions? Would have to look into means of acquiring them. If it is possible to keep a steady supply of them, they could be a viable healing option with good healing amp.

The split
13 rogue: Maximizing sneak attacks and providing trap skills. Also gives opportunist and improved evasion. With the amount of shurikens thrown, fort bypass, whistler and improved deception mobs will very often be possible to sneak. 13d6 of it is a powerful boost to have.

6 monk: 10k stars pre-req, adept stances, run speed, ninja spy, etc.

1 fighter: 14 rogue or 7 monk wouldn't have given me much. One feat + haste boost made fighter an interesting pick.

Potential problems?
Other than those mentionned previously, run speed is something that worries me. I am planning to try out earth stance with fury, but that would put me at +0% run speed, and that looks a little scary to me right now on a pew pew/kiting build. But I would have to actually play the character in that state to see if it is a real problem or not, which I have not done yet.

Final words
This is all I can think of for now. As you can see, this build is not completed yet but I believe it is already a good improvement on the previous one.

I'm hoping it will be completed soon with a good amount of feedback!

also, FWIW, this has been my end game build for a while (high SA FoTW Elf Thrower) and that's why I have so much commentary for this build. The best SA Shuriken thrower me and my guildy/Vent builder buddies can come up with is something like this.

Our argument that remains as I grind out the last EPL for DoubleShot is:

What's the highest damage?
Maxing ROgue levels like you have done?

or what we are leaning towards which would be more like:
10 or 11Rogue/6Monk/3 or 4 Ranger

To fit PA, Cleave, GCleave, and OCrit, as well as yummy DWS stuff for ranged.

Don't forget the further and infuriating point that Sniper Shot, at +2 Crit Multi is almost as devastating with Adrenaline as Slayer arrows (definitely the number 2 thing you can wind up after an adrenaline).

Glad to make things harder for you

Yeah I haven't worked out the feats yet since I wasnt sure the split, but Combat archery isn't that great applied to a shuriken, although the dodge is nice.

OC, and Blinding Speed are the must haves. Doubleshot is good (2.5% more projectiles), not much else at that level. I would not drop Completionist. That is an otherwise unobtainable 2 Dexterity, which is DPS option #1 for this build.

He wouldn't have access to isa with a 10 rogue split, it requires 12+ rogue levels.

Fwiw, my theory build is helf: 12rogue, 4ranger, 4monk.

Ive been really tempted by sniper shot, but not enough to give up no mercy for it. Im kinda set on 12 rogue levels, as the epic feat options are pretty shitty.

Completely dex based perm doubleshot, like distributed I hadnt run the math, but I didnt think it would be much of a difference either way.

I would seriously love to go full doubleshot and just remove 10k.

When I started thinking about it I had only 4 monk in mind like Mo, the rest of the levels I wasn't sure yet. I knew that I wanted to squeeze in as much SA as possible and that I didn't want to lose No Mercy from having only 3 monk for Adv Ninja Training.

My thought was that, even if 37% is far from what you can get while 10k is active, it's still 37% all the time and not just for 30 seconds. I'm just not sure if the difference would be significant in DPS over time or just minimal. Honestly, if it's only slightly behind having 10k, I'm fine with it. Wouldn't have to worry about ki at all anymore, which is pretty awesome.

And yes combat archery is poo for shurikens, but damn, the epic feat choices are terrible 

Was also leaning towards sacrificing opportunist and not IE.

Distributed wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 12:14am:


Slayer is still king DPS for Adrenaline. But you can use Sniper a lot more and it gives 50% or more sneak attack vulnerability. That is huge for a SA build.

Ah well, won't sacrifice that then.

Still not sure about the doubleshot though. If it's just slightly behind 10k I'm definitely going for it.

Well, I'm not saying I'll do it now, but I'm definitely keeping it in mind as an option if the AA stuff gets fixed, since I have doubts about it being WAI. Ranged ARCHERY attack and stuff.

That would open the way for Sniper Shot and a more DWS build, with killer that provides 20% doubleshot.

But anyway, even if it was currently viable, I'd still startup up with 10k because the doubleshot potential is shit until capped pretty much with the bracers at 26(?) and the feat at 28.

I also do not have the pastlives currently, so obviously 10k build for now.

Darkrok wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 5:22pm:


in fury you can do 75% of the CC/Utility and 200% of the damage.

Just try it.

Alright, looks like this right now.

Lawful Neutral Elf
10 Rogue/6 Monk/4 Ranger

STR 18 (1 level-up since I only have +4 tomes, need 23 for Overwhelming Critical)
DEX 18 (all other level-up)
CON 10
INT 10 (Needed at least that for full trapping skills)
WIS 12
CHA 8

1rogue            Point Blank Shot
2monk            Shuriken Expertise
3monk            Quick Draw/Precision
4ranger            
5ranger            Rapid Shot
6monk            Completionist
7monk            
8monk            
9monk            Ten Thousand Stars/Power Attack
10ranger      
11ranger      Precise Shot
12rogue            Cleave
13rogue            
14rogue            
15rogue            Improved Critical: Thrown
16rogue            
17rogue            
18rogue            Improved Precise Shot
19rogue            
20rogue            Improved Evasion


21epic            Great Cleave
24epic            Overwhelming Critical
26epic            Epic Spellpower: Positive
27epic            Blinding Speed
28epic            Doubleshot


Enhancements
26 Ninja Spy (Minimum for full No Mercy)
32 Arcane Archer (Minimum for Arrow of Slaying)
14 Elf (Minimum for unlocking Arcane Archer)
__
72 Total 8 left to spend wherever

Just to follow up on my point about Sniper Shot vs No Mercy, don't forget your self admitted biggest problem with your previous build was boss DPS, for which No Mercy does nothing. Of course, the rest of the build does, but I'm just sayin'.

Munkenmo wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 10:00pm:


I didn't want to say it because he was leaning for a Rogue version, but there's a lot of mileage in what you're suggesting for the reasons you've suggested.

I would say Helf is the least attractive option, imo, but I'm a known naysayer of having more than minimal HAMP on a ranged character with speed, UMD, CC, HP, and cocoon. Just my feelings on the matter.

Elf also gives you the option for Displacement at a near or equal to Arcane level, which I find to be really the most important defensive aspect of almost any build, except for saves.

Drow is a real contender since they get a free feat of course, and shuriken damage is nice, as is racial dex.

Any way, the core of this build is: OC, 6 Monk, and Dex race.

The rest of what you do with it, in my mind, is personal preference/playstyle, flavor, and experimentation. Kind of like a monkcher.