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Normal Topic I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken. (Read 8989 times)
JC
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I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Mar 3rd, 2014 at 1:38pm
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Or namely, the summoner is.

At level 10 the Summoners Eidolon, if min-maxed, can make 18 attacks with a full attack. With a strength of 30. This is before any magic items or spells of any kind.

And I think my DM is going to throw one at us to try and kill us all. Smiley

Anyway, it works like this:

Feats: 4
Power attack, multiweapon fighting, Improved unarmed strike -or- exotic weapon proficiency sawtooth sabre, (a long sword that counts as light for off hand) & double slice.
unarmed strikes are better, it is much cheaper to buy 1 amulet of mighty fists and have it apply to all punches AND natural attacks than it is to buy and enchant 12+ swords. But it might be a bit iffy on whether or not you can make punches with the arms. Nothing says you can't, but nothing says you can either.

Base form: Biped (2 arms, 2 legs & 2 claws)
Evolutions: 18 (14 base +2 feat +2 half-elf)
Large 4 points
Limbs (arms) 2 points
Limbs (arms) 2 points
Limbs (arms) 2 points
Limbs (arms) 2 points (Yes I'm fucking serious)
Limbs (arms) 2 points
Limbs (arms) 2 points
Bite 1 point
2 claws 1 point

There is no limit anywhere of how many times you can take the arms evolution.There is a hard limit of how many natural attacks you can have, but that specifically applies only to natural attacks.


Now for strength: 16 base +4 given str bonus +2 level ups +8 large = 30

+4 for bulls str or item =34

+2 enlarge person =36

Standard buffs at this level: mage armor, shield, barkskin, haste, enlarge person & greater invisibility. Probably not all of them, but at least haste.

TL:DR
If buffed with at least haste (and I got my math right) the Eidolon will get 18 attacks, at +17 to-hit (and one at +12 to-hit) and all for at-least 1d4+14 damage. and that is with just a +4 str item.

And that is just the summon, the summoner is a decent caster by itself. Fucking. Broken.
  

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Persiflage
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #1 - Mar 4th, 2014 at 5:15am
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There is no D&D-a-like system that isn't broken.  For all the much-vaunted "balance, consistency and integrity" that were stated design goals in 4E, it was broken right out of the box before any expansions.  Pathfinder has too much 3.5 in it to not be at least a bit broken.  3.5 was basically made of broken, with little sprinkles of broken on top.  2E wasn't a proper ruleset at all really, but the rules that were there, were broken... particularly if you allowed TSR's rule that Sage Advice was canon.

This is why the concept of "DM fiat"; if you play the rules strictly as written in any of them, the game goes to hell in a handbasket unless people voluntarily exercise restraint.  I have never actually *minded* this, but it's so.  Smiley
  

stainer wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 9:26am:
Oh you are good. I will be watching you.


QuantumFX wrote on Jun 5th, 2013 at 11:11am:
You are an evil human being. 


m4lacka wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 7:04am:
wow that post hurt a lot more than any of the namecalling i expected. Now I see why ppl consider you evil.
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 2:31pm
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Social restraint is the only type of balancing that ultimately works.
  
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kierg10
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #3 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 8:34pm
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Another way of balancing that is to have the DM immediately strike down your character with a random falling rock.......

Tongue

and pathfinder is still more balanced than any other DnD version so far (4e not counting).
  

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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:35am
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Persiflage wrote on Mar 4th, 2014 at 5:15am:
There is no D&D-a-like system that isn't broken.  For all the much-vaunted "balance, consistency and integrity" that were stated design goals in 4E, it was broken right out of the box before any expansions.  Pathfinder has too much 3.5 in it to not be at least a bit broken.  3.5 was basically made of broken, with little sprinkles of broken on top.  2E wasn't a proper ruleset at all really, but the rules that were there, were broken... particularly if you allowed TSR's rule that Sage Advice was canon.

This is why the concept of "DM fiat"; if you play the rules strictly as written in any of them, the game goes to hell in a handbasket unless people voluntarily exercise restraint.  I have never actually *minded* this, but it's so.  Smiley


The worst is that even the D&D rules are somewhat broken... They hide it better ( Elves, Halflings and Dwarves being Classes instead of races, and the restriction to 36 levels no more ( after you just restart at Level 1... with a new ruleset called Immortal ) but overall they still have a few broken things.

From my experience most PnP system will tend to break up when pushed as far as possible.
I have a friend that is able to make Super Heroes with 60 Points in GURPS ( Normally supers at Gurps are somewhere around 400/500 points ) by (ab)using the point system in character creation. Everything was strictly to the letter of the rules.
As for Rolemaster I know quite well from my own experience that it tends does unravel over LVL 50. ( and if you have the bright idea to give Artifacts to your players, it just goes down the drain around LVL 25 )
Chaosium Basic Roleplaying System works well for a while... But the system eventually break up due to your skill reaching the 100% chance.
Now I haven't pushed Space Opera system far enough to get it to break... but since it's a system that makes Spacemaster ( First Edition ) being a kid's play it doesn't matter much...


  

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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:28pm
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Flav wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:35am:
The worst is that even the D&D rules are somewhat broken... They hide it better ( Elves, Halflings and Dwarves being Classes instead of races, and the restriction to 36 levels no more ( after you just restart at Level 1... with a new ruleset called Immortal ) but overall they still have a few broken things.

From my experience most PnP system will tend to break up when pushed as far as possible.
I have a friend that is able to make Super Heroes with 60 Points in GURPS ( Normally supers at Gurps are somewhere around 400/500 points ) by (ab)using the point system in character creation. Everything was strictly to the letter of the rules.
As for Rolemaster I know quite well from my own experience that it tends does unravel over LVL 50. ( and if you have the bright idea to give Artifacts to your players, it just goes down the drain around LVL 25 )
Chaosium Basic Roleplaying System works well for a while... But the system eventually break up due to your skill reaching the 100% chance.
Now I haven't pushed Space Opera system far enough to get it to break... but since it's a system that makes Spacemaster ( First Edition ) being a kid's play it doesn't matter much...




Don't forget White Wolf...  you can end up completely flattening the curve due to the sheer volume of dice you're rolling for skills, and then explode it in your favour by using cheesy discard mechanics by the right application of Flaws and Virtues in character creation.

I'm amazed anyone has played Rolemaster to a high enough level to even find out whether or not the rules are balanced; my experience with it is that 6 dedicated players getting together for 4 hours a week can, if they're experienced, generally complete character generation by around Month 3.  Wink

Fantasy Hero is surprisingly difficult to exploit for additional PnP cheese, if only because it starts out like ripened Camembert Wink

I'm with cdr... it's actually okay for PnP rules to be a bit broken in and of themselves, because at the end of the day it kinda has to be a cooperative game between players and DM.  Playing the game at all is an implied social contract.

If a DM has to strike your character down with a random falling rock, you (and they) are doing it wrong.
  

stainer wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 9:26am:
Oh you are good. I will be watching you.


QuantumFX wrote on Jun 5th, 2013 at 11:11am:
You are an evil human being. 


m4lacka wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 7:04am:
wow that post hurt a lot more than any of the namecalling i expected. Now I see why ppl consider you evil.
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #6 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:11pm
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Persiflage wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:28pm:
I'm with cdr... it's actually okay for PnP rules to be a bit broken in and of themselves, because at the end of the day it kinda has to be a cooperative game between players and DM.  Playing the game at all is an implied social contract.


Absolutely.

I know that when I DM, some of those critical hits and fumbles at opportune times are there just because it adds to the story, not because of any actual die roll.  Cheesy
  

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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #7 - Mar 12th, 2014 at 5:08am
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Flav wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:35am:
The worst is that even the D&D rules are somewhat broken... They hide it better ( Elves, Halflings and Dwarves being Classes instead of races, and the restriction to 36 levels no more ( after you just restart at Level 1... with a new ruleset called Immortal ) but overall they still have a few broken things.

From my experience most PnP system will tend to break up when pushed as far as possible.
I have a friend that is able to make Super Heroes with 60 Points in GURPS ( Normally supers at Gurps are somewhere around 400/500 points ) by (ab)using the point system in character creation. Everything was strictly to the letter of the rules.
As for Rolemaster I know quite well from my own experience that it tends does unravel over LVL 50. ( and if you have the bright idea to give Artifacts to your players, it just goes down the drain around LVL 25 )
Chaosium Basic Roleplaying System works well for a while... But the system eventually break up due to your skill reaching the 100% chance.
Now I haven't pushed Space Opera system far enough to get it to break... but since it's a system that makes Spacemaster ( First Edition ) being a kid's play it doesn't matter much...




I'm not sure what Chaosium Basic Roleplaying System is but I loved the old Runequest II Rules (Pre-AvalonHill). Not balanced at all though and really took a lot of work to keep all the players happy as a GM.

Space Opera by FGU (commonly refered to as Fucking Games Unplayable) broke with the first Transhuman you allowed in the game. The race made anything anybody else was playing, irrelevant.

But both of those games come from an age when a GM could just kill off any character that was annoying the group.
  
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #8 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 8:13pm
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DnD 3.5

Telekinesis.

1000 Sewing Needles.

each needle does 1d2.

The end.
  

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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #9 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 11:39pm
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Smrti wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 8:13pm:
DnD 3.5

Telekinesis.

1000 Sewing Needles.

each needle does 1d2.

The end.

Whaaaa...?
  
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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #10 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 11:45pm
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Smrti wrote on Mar 22nd, 2014 at 8:13pm:
DnD 3.5

Telekinesis.

1000 Sewing Needles.

each needle does 1d2.

The end.

10th level Barbarian.

Thank you, come again.
  

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Re: I take back what I said, Pathfinder is broken.
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 2:30pm
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Flav wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:35am:
Now I haven't pushed Space Opera system far enough to get it to break... but since it's a system that makes Spacemaster ( First Edition ) being a kid's play it doesn't matter much...



Try Dark Heresy at level 9+

YOur Acolyte troup turns into this:
  
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