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harharharhar
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Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Jul 20th, 2014 at 8:41pm
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Halfling
12Artificer/5Rogue/3Monk
Primary Destiny: Divine Crusader/Shiradi

Feats Level order is: 1 Rogue/3 Monk/12 Arty/4 Rogue
Heroic:
1. PA
2. Monk: Shuriken Expertise
3. Cleave Monk: Dodge
6. Extend
8. Arty 4: Point Blank Shot
9. Rapid Shot
12. Precision Arty 8: Precision
15. Quickdraw
16. Arty 12: IPS
18. IC Thrown
Epic:
21.GCleave
24. OC
27.Blinding Speed/Epic Reflex
28.DoubleShot

Sources of DoubleShot
Mechanic Capstone: 10%
DoubleShot Epic PL: 9%
DoubleShot Epic Feat: 10%
DC Epic Moment: ~16% Average (25.5% Average Doubleshot 5/8ths of the time)
Situational
Divine Crusader/Enhancement: 10% (CC Stacks)-15%(off hand bastard sword, First Blood or 14% from Sickle from 3BC)
Killer: 25%

(Average) Totals --
Permanent: 45%
Semi-Permanent: 55% (Celestial Champion with 10 stacks)
Trash Killing: 80% DoubleShot (If you train Killer instead of No Mercy)

Or
Shiradi
Mechanic Capstone: 10%
DoubleShot Epic PL: 9%
DoubleShot Epic Feat: 10%
Enhancement (Devourers Reaping/First Blood): 14%/15% or a little less with 6% Offhand, or Ring, or 8% From Bracers

(Average) Totals --
Permanent: 44%
Option:
Trash Killing: 69% DoubleShot (If you train Killer instead of No Mercy)


Enhancements:
18 Halfling for +1 Crit Threat, 2 Dex, Saves,
33 Mechanic for 10% Doubleshot, 2 Dex, +3 UMD, Wracking Shot, whatever
6   Ninja Spy for T1/T2 Core (extra Shuriken, dex to damage, 2 Dodge)
23 TA Shadow Dodge, 1 Dex
-------
80 AP

Offhand: Glass Cannon, First Blood, Toven's Hammer, etc. LOTS of extra proc damage (20-30 per shuriken)

Armor would be 2d6 SA damage light Shadow Armor if you aren't worried about losing a few Dodge points for the extra SA dice. Otherwise Shadowscale or Cormyrian Red Scale. BlackDragon if you're not using a Dragon's Edge shuriken for some reason and need Armor-Piercing.

Advantages over other shuriken builds:
-15-20 Crits (In Divine Crusader),
-x3 on 19-20 from OC which provides quite a nice Physical damage boost. 
-45% Permanent Doubleshot roughly equivalent for most builds to 10k  (in any Destiny), situationally quite a bit higher in DC or with Killer trained.
-High SA damage (3d6 Rogue, 2d6 Shadow Armor, 2-3D6 Halfling, 2-3D6 Assassin)
-Arty Buffs (Elemental Weapons, Extended Self Cast Tensers or Long Scrolls)
-Increased Buff times from Arty on clickies/scrolls
-Weird healing in Divine Crusader
-Excellent trap skills and UMD
-Ability to use very high damage off hand items like First Blood for 15% Doublestrike, or Glass Cannon or Tovens for ~18-23 Damage/star compared to Celestia at a much lower 6 or 7 damage/star.

Disadvantages from Meteor Shower Rev. 1/2:
-Non Permanent Tensers, but close to it (2:30 per cast extended I think).
-Slightly lower PRR (none from EK tree)
-Slightly lower Dodge due to differing enhancements
-Very slightly lower Dex, moreso in Divine Crusader. In Shiradi it's within a couple points due to ED Dexterity.
-Lower Movement speed (though this is easily made up in Mechanic with Leg Shot which slows all but purple names, which is amazing).

I currently run in Shiradi most of the time, and it is amazing.
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2014 at 4:13am by harharharhar »  
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harharharhar
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #1 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:01pm
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Also, this might be really fun in LD as well
  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #2 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:13pm
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Quote:
Advanced Ninja Training: While you are centered, you can use your Dexterity modifier for damage with piercing and slashing melee weapons and shuriken. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.


Your a halfing so it's not too much of an issue, but since your enhancement AP will be tight it's probably worth pointing out that you've gotta keep skillful thrower even when you have a gearset / ED layout that makes Master Thrower redundant.
  

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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:20pm
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Munkenmo wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:13pm:
Your a halfing so it's not too much of an issue, but since your enhancement AP will be tight it's probably worth pointing out that you've gotta keep skillful thrower even when you have a gearset / ED layout that makes Master Thrower redundant.


So I've confirmed that uncentered in light armor I get:
Dex to Damage
SE and Adv Ninja Training extra Shuriken Procs

and in DC
15-20 Crit Range



« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:28pm by harharharhar »  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:25pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:20pm:
So I've confirmed that uncentered in light armor I get:
Dex to Damage


Could you test offensively uncentered aswell?  I'll update the wiki once you do.
  

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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #5 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:33pm
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Confirmed:

  
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #6 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:36pm
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sorry the above confirms ANT and SE work uncenetered with Double shot (4 projectiles)

Below I've SS'd a pic of Balizarde equipped and dex to damage

  
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #7 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:40pm
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Thank you
  

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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:57pm
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So now help me work through which two would be ideal out of:
-Perm 10% Double shot
-6 Dex/3% Dodge
-25% Doubleshot from Killer

60 Dex / 50% Doubleshot (Killer and Rapid Fire)
1.00
.60
.60
.50
-----
2.7

66 Dex / 40% Doubleshot (Killer and Shadowdodge)
1.00
.66
.66
.40
-----
2.72
or
2.97 with 4 stacks of Killer.

66 Dex / 50% Doubleshot (Shadow Dodge and Rapid Fire)

1.00
.66
.66
.50
-----
2.82

.12/2.7=4.4% Total Permanent increase if I lose Killer.

Killer makes about a 5.5% increase, when it's at full stacks.

Looks like ditching killer is probably the best DPS, over all-time, including bosses where it's probably difficult to maintain.
  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2014 at 10:00pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:57pm:
Looks like ditching killer is probably the best DPS, over all-time, including bosses where it's probably difficult to maintain.


I'm relying on your math for now as my lunchbreak is almost over, but I'd be more concerned about consistent boss / full time dps than trash dps.

so I'd go for
66 Dex / 50% Doubleshot (Shadow Dodge and Rapid Fire)

1.00
.66
.66
.50
-----
2.82

  

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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #10 - Jul 22nd, 2014 at 10:28am
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:36pm:
sorry the above confirms ANT and SE work uncenetered with Double shot (4 projectiles)

Below I've SS'd a pic of Balizarde equipped and dex to damage

http://s13.postimg.org/sbr80e87n/Screen_Shot00005.jpg


I tested a bit on iconics and lvl 7 halfling (3 mnk 3 rog 1 w/e), 1st and 2nd cores from ninja spy taken, using plain non returning shurikens.

Without skillful thrower and uncentered:
Shurikens were flagged as STR to damage, damage figures confirmed this.

With skillful thrower and uncentered:
Shurikens were flagged as DEX/STR for damage, damage figures confirmed that DEX was applied. Also got three shurikens in one shot, so ANT seems to work all right.
It is pretty glitchy as well, seems enabling/disabling skillful thrower makes the last damage mod stick to the current stack of shurikens.
That dex to dmg while uncentered, in your screenshot, might be the result of this stacking, if you reset skillful thrower just before.

Unfortunately I didn't had a returning shuriken handy to make some tests with it.

  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #11 - Jul 22nd, 2014 at 12:46pm
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I've also been considering builds that give up 10k in favor of doubleshot lately, since I prefer always-on abilities and have a harder time using 10k consistenly. Maxing doublestrike would be the key assuming DEX stays the same, else you have to compensate for it.
  
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harharharhar
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Re: Uncentered DoubleShot Shower - Work In Progress
Reply #12 - Jul 22nd, 2014 at 1:02pm
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Limpgimp wrote on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 10:28am:
I tested a bit on iconics and lvl 7 halfling (3 mnk 3 rog 1 w/e), 1st and 2nd cores from ninja spy taken, using plain non returning shurikens.

Without skillful thrower and uncentered:
Shurikens were flagged as STR to damage, damage figures confirmed this.

With skillful thrower and uncentered:
Shurikens were flagged as DEX/STR for damage, damage figures confirmed that DEX was applied. Also got three shurikens in one shot, so ANT seems to work all right.
It is pretty glitchy as well, seems enabling/disabling skillful thrower makes the last damage mod stick to the current stack of shurikens.
That dex to dmg while uncentered, in your screenshot, might be the result of this stacking, if you reset skillful thrower just before.

Unfortunately I didn't had a returning shuriken handy to make some tests with it.



I have no idea what you experienced, or why. I've consistently seen what is shown above in the screenshots. In playing, I'm certain I'm getting dex damage, I would notice the drop in damage if not.

I will take another look over the next couple days to be sure though. Thanks.
  
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harharharhar
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #13 - Jul 22nd, 2014 at 1:13pm
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ok when I logged in today had STR to damage on my shuriken. Just unequipped and re-equipped and it went to dex and stayed there.
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #14 - Jul 23rd, 2014 at 5:46am
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Interesting, will have to test more. Maybe the non returning shurikens caused the problems for me.
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #15 - Jul 23rd, 2014 at 2:05pm
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So I capped this yesterday, and it needs some tweaks.

Specifically, it actually performs best in Shiradi. And it is beastly. With No Mercy and Sense Weakness twisted, the crits and physical damage are so high. The nice thing is, it still eats trash like mad, but on bosses who don't get helpless it's increased physical damage is really nice. This might be a better EE build than my others, we'll see.

Right now I've been off handing first blood for the 15% doublestrike in Shiradi.
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #16 - Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:53am
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So, my fuck 10k let's just get doubleshot idea from way back is finally viable?  Grin
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #17 - Jul 24th, 2014 at 8:50am
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Distributed wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:53am:
So, my fuck 10k let's just get doubleshot idea from way back is finally viable?


it was always viable, just had to wait for harhar to notice it Cheesy
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #18 - Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:00pm
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I just remember the idea not going through so well in my shuriken thread haha.

Good to know it's finally an option, haven't put any thought into any builds since I'm back on the TR train.
  
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Re: Divine Artichucker - Work in Progress
Reply #19 - Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:07pm
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Distributed wrote on Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:00pm:
I just remember the idea not going through so well in my shuriken thread haha.

Good to know it's finally an option, haven't put any thought into any builds since I'm back on the TR train.


I dont recall that part of the thread well, but its been a long time and I've TR'd myself about 50 times.

Also, Divine Crusader, First Blood, and high quality speed throwing tests (you're welcome!) didn't exist I don't think.

No doubt your thread and the back and forth there contributed a lot to the development of my /5Wiz platform builds, and now this one, which is same same (extended self cast tensors, Shadow Dodge) but different.

Only source I'm missing so far as I can tell is Killer, which seems too situational, and not useful on bosses to skip something more widely useful like 10% Doubleshot or No Mercy which I'm currently running (esp in Shiradi).

Now that I have a much better grasp on the math, mechanics, and state of end game play regarding throwers, I've realized what a small difference there is between 40% and 50% Doubleshot when you already have /3 Monk and Shuriken Expertise for Doubleshot chances (essentially) at around 70% (70 Dex) Each. That incremental 10% Doubleshot you could consternate about over not having 10K is a very small real world difference (maybe 3% total DPS) that could be better focused elsewhere, like Dex, OC, or what have you. I'm not done with the /3 Monk thrower builds yet, I don't think. But at end game this one is really a beast so far.
« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:12pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Reply #20 - Jul 26th, 2014 at 12:16pm
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I tried on Lama awhile back a Bard thrower mixed with Arty and found the Glass Cannon wasn't transferring the bludgeon DR bypass effect like it should have with TF shuriken. Is that still the case?

Also if I am reading this right the Doublestrike effect off of Firstblood is giving you the equivalent bonus for Doubleshot as an offhand weapon on your shuriken? Or am I reading that wrong?
  
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Re: Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Reply #21 - Jul 26th, 2014 at 3:00pm
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Synchrono wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 12:16pm:
I tried on Lama awhile back a Bard thrower mixed with Arty and found the Glass Cannon wasn't transferring the bludgeon DR bypass effect like it should have with TF shuriken. Is that still the case?

Also if I am reading this right the Doublestrike effect off of Firstblood is giving you the equivalent bonus for Doubleshot as an offhand weapon on your shuriken? Or am I reading that wrong?


Doublestrike enhancement bonuses on equipment seem to also be giving Doubleshot. Turns out the new sickle (14% DS, Red, Colorless) is a better choice for offhand than First Blood, but looks less cool.

I've never heard anything about Bludgeon bypass damage on Glass Cannon. So I've never looked into it.
  
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Re: Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Reply #22 - Jul 26th, 2014 at 10:39pm
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The Glass Cannon at tier 3 has Exploding Cannon Shot, Maximum Charge Tier V, Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V, Rune Arm Imbue: Fire V, Fortification Penalty (-25%), Impulse +120, Yellow Augment Slot

I had originally hoped that the Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V which is defined as 2-16 points of Bludgeon Damage per hit as an imbue along with the 2-20 Fire Damage Imbue. I originally tested this with a tier 2 TF shuriken and the Glass Cannon at tier 3 Swashbuckling I think on round 2 of the u22 Second Pass where much of the Swashbuckling pass was broken. I know that the skeletons in Thunderholme were giving me yellow damage from my throws at the time but I didn't get a chance to test the last Lama set and my chucker on live doesn't have Arty in it for my testing at the moment.

I am not sure if the runearm would be better in the long term DPS wise vs the Doubleshot item offhand but I admit I am intrigued by the possibility.
  
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Re: Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Reply #23 - Jul 27th, 2014 at 1:10pm
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Well, ShuriCannon Trd into your Dark Star build.. now its time to once more TR, into your Tinkerhell.. Cheesy. Loved the Darkstar, was a blast to play and even level. Im not fond of arti, but i hope its fun as a chucker
  
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Re: Tinkerhell: The Uncentered Artichucker
Reply #24 - Jul 27th, 2014 at 2:12pm
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Synchrono wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 10:39pm:
The Glass Cannon at tier 3 has Exploding Cannon Shot, Maximum Charge Tier V, Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V, Rune Arm Imbue: Fire V, Fortification Penalty (-25%), Impulse +120, Yellow Augment Slot

I had originally hoped that the Rune Arm Imbue: Bludgeon V which is defined as 2-16 points of Bludgeon Damage per hit as an imbue along with the 2-20 Fire Damage Imbue. I originally tested this with a tier 2 TF shuriken and the Glass Cannon at tier 3 Swashbuckling I think on round 2 of the u22 Second Pass where much of the Swashbuckling pass was broken. I know that the skeletons in Thunderholme were giving me yellow damage from my throws at the time but I didn't get a chance to test the last Lama set and my chucker on live doesn't have Arty in it for my testing at the moment.

I am not sure if the runearm would be better in the long term DPS wise vs the Doubleshot item offhand but I admit I am intrigued by the possibility.


My calculations with my current damage totals show the Glass Cannon ahead on things that take fire damage.

That's with 11 Deadly, 3 Monk PLs, 74'ish Dex, Seeker 10, 17-20x2 Crit Range, about ~50 SA per hit, and a fully fleshed TF sruiken with 10-60 Fire, Dragons Edge, Mortal Fear, and a Meteoric Ruby.

The nice thing about 14% DS in the offhand is that the sickle has a red slot for devotion. Or eventually as a bard, Sonic SP. I may not have every damage point calculated in my equation though, as all damage rises it would follow that Doubleshot would take over being important as the amount from Glass Cannon becomes proportionally less compared to the total amount of damage/throw.

The reason currently Glass Cannon wins is because Doubleshot only increases the chance of throwing a Third missile, whereas Glass Cannon is adding ~19 damage for all three missiles. That's a big proc per hit.
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2014 at 2:14pm by harharharhar »  
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