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Resonant Arms thrower
Sep 16th, 2014 at 2:54pm
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Sonic Boom - A Swashbuckler Shuriken chucker based on Resonant Arms and Harmonic Resonance

With 6d6 sonic damage on crit and 335 Sonic Spellpower that should be 26d6 per crit, right? Anything that gets 5 full stacks of Harmonic Resonance should be taking twice that. I'm thinking that it will hit less often with less small numbers attached to each star than an Artichucker but not spike completely like a Slayer/Furyshot. I'm hoping trash will die just fine, and without downtimes between spikes, but the Harmonic Resonance will let it stay relevant during boss fights.

I'm pretty sure about race, feats, Fatesinger, and T5 Swashbuckler for Exploit Weakness.

Race: Halfling - Dex to damage

Feats: PBS, Quickdraw, Rapidshot, PS, IPS, IC: Thrown, Shuriken Proficiency, Shuriken Expertise

Epic Destiny Feats: Doubleshot, Epic Spellpower: Sonic

Sonic Spellpower:

150 TF Orb
20 Loud and Clear
70 Perform (meh, probably higher)
60 Aria
10 Majesty (Fatesinger Core)
25 Epic Spellpower

335 Sonic Spellpower, standing

20 Greater Cacophony Pot (3 min)
Maybe 45 Sigil of Battering Spellcraft T4 Magister Twist (45s, 2min cd)

What am I missing as far as stacking Sonic?

Things I don't know:

Will two non-crits from shuriken expertise proc 2 Sense Weakness Stacks? The build doesn't hinge on it but it will be interesting to find out.

Does it make more sense to leave the offhand empty for 10% doubleshot? It also means losing a 1st tier TF on the shuriken to take spellpower. There's also the option to use a buckler for 10% dodge and only be behind 4% doubleshot with Epic Swashbuckler.

Should I really focus on Shadow Dodge? I know it's my damage stat, but this will be a single Shuriken Expertise roll instead of a double like a monk based. Going Warchanter with that AP gets Iced Edges, Ironskin, and Reckless.

The split is what I'm really pondering and looking for help with. I think my prioroties are full bab and evasion followed by sonic or SA. I'd also ideally like a few AP for Spellsinger T1 song duration for the Fatesinger stuff.

The first one would definitely take Loud and Clear and the Magister Sigil because its express purpose is to go full retard sonic spellpower.

12/5/3 Sorc/Bard/Rogue
++40 Sonic Spellpower
++Extended Tenser's
+Extended other buffs
-Super tight AP's (33 SWB, 21 AS, 11 Halfling, 13 TA)
-21 AP in Air Savant does fuckall for a thrower build that never wants to take its foot off the gas. Casting would be a dps drop, despite stacking spellpower gained from Electrocution. If it gained a stack per tick of a dot that would be cool, but afaict it's once per cast. I had dreams of dotting Eladar's and Reverberate to stack the +5 spellpower and vulnerable, but alas.

11/6/3 Bard/Rgr/Rogue
++Brings the SA hot n heavy. Probably top tier deeps moar deeps with SA.
++Sniper Shot
+Killer from a tree I don't mind being in
+A reasonable split that frees up two feats that could be Metamagics
-Scroll Tenser's

12/5/3 Art/Bard/Rogue
++Extended Tenser's
++Abusable Lightning Sphere (only needs 3 Arty for double LS) should go well with CDG
+Arty Buffs
+Arty bonus feats are all good
-Doesn't add to Sonic spellpower or SA

11/9 Rgr/Bard
+Frees up a crapton of feats. IPS chain without needing PBS which feels pretty meh on a build with other sources of ranged SA distance.
-Scrolling Tenser's and Displacement
-WTF am I gonna do with all those feats?

20 Bard
+Full Bard spells with normal DC's. I like the idea of having a disco ball up for anything that I kite and an Irresistible for the mob that makes it to touch range. More dignified than hopping around and lets me stand in a sigil.
-Medium armor possibilities from WC break SWB
-Scroll Tenser's
-Lose evasion with a scroll in hand. Like when people are dying and I need to use a raise scroll or Tenser's runs out.
-Now I want to cast and feats get tight

12/5/3 Fvs/Bard/Rogue
+/- Divine Power gets full BAB, no +Dex like Tenser's
+Heal Spell
+Action Boost Spellpower stacks to add to Sonic (at least the human version does)
-No synergy with Fatesinger
-Pretty sure scourge is specifically not sonic

Right now I'm leaning towards the first one because of its full retard nature. I might chicken out though and run the second one because it seems to make the most sense to give up some spellpower for a pile of SA dice. Although it could be funny to drop SE and T5 SWB altogether, use a Coffin Nail, and take T5 Air Savant for Wind Dance. Call it the Kite Boss, Obtainer of Squelch.

Much thanks to Notharhar and many, many others for providing all the 101's on throwing.

Thanks for your time and advice, please accept:
  
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AtomicMew
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #1 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 6:22pm
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I think the arti split is the best.  A little extra spellpower from sorc isn't going to do anything.  Also, can you explain not using rune arm?
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #2 - Sep 16th, 2014 at 10:33pm
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There's pretty much no explaining for leveling since orbs are either non-existent or crappy until Thunder Forged. Before that an orb would pretty much be a red augment holder.

This is all subject to some assumptions on my part, mainly that anything labeled "On-hit" from Thunderforge does not proc from the offhand.

Orb:
+20 sonic spellpower from Loud and Clear which (if I'm even understanding this correctly) would be +1.2d6 on crit from RA, pretty meh. I think pretty much nothing from Fatesinger scales with sonic so that +20 won't be missed by anything other than RA.

+150 sonic on the orb gets 1st degree burns on the shuriken for vulnerability.

Tier 2 TF Orb Options include:
+6 Enchantment DC if I wanted to try for a build with a disco that maybe lands into EH.
Dragon's Edge, which is labeled as a passive armor piercing. Armor piercing from the offhand has applied in the past, but IDK.

Tier 3... I personally probably won't ever have the mats to spend on an offhand. But, whatever build I settle on would probably have 2 types of action boosts and bard songs so Draconic Reinvigoration would be my luxury item.
Tier 3 also has things labeled "On Vorpal" and "On Crit" but IDK if they proc from the offhand.

Rune Arm:
+1d6 on every hit from Music Box, plus whatever on hit you get from the imbue, which gets pretty big on the end game Rune Arms.

Intangibles like disrupting weapons. Hard to quantify and dependent on what's in your stable. But it's damn convenient to swap in if you have what's needed.

I'm mostly thinking out loud so there's probably more I missed.

Off topic, orbs bash right now. A melee Resonant Arms build could put Mortal Fear on the orb for a roll at it every second or so.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #3 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:22am
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the way to look at this is that Dex is now roughly EQUAL to Doubleshot.

With a traditional thrower with at least /3 Monk, 1 Dex = 2% more shurikens. But without /3 Monk, 1 Dex = 1% more Shuriken (and .5 Damage of course).

So 7% Doubleshot is now equivalent to say, about 6 Dex. So if I were making this build (which I will, IF they fix x3 Multi to thrown in SWB), I would go Warchanter over Shadow Dodge, since there's more good stuff in Warchanter than in TA. TA has 2 Dex, 6 Dex from Shadow Dodge, and No Mercy which is great, but costly and doesn't help you on Red Names.

I was looking at warchanter the other day and it has some nice things in it. 6% Doubleshot , 6% Ranged Power and a little Spell Power is very nice.

But you can't actually have the all of those and still have Exploit Weakness, which would be a MUST on a thrower build utilizing Resonant Arms as a focus. It drops your effective crit range with Shuriken to like 10-20 or so. But it's really hard to model mathematically, for me at least.

DPS of Resonant Arms:
6d6*3.35 = 70.3 Dmg/Crit.
Crit of 22% = .78(70.3) + .22(70.3)*2 = 85.732 Sonic Dmg/Crit.

If you use Exploit Weakness and you estimate your average crit threat to be about 10-20 that's a 55% crit rate. .55*85.73 = 47.1515.

So you see, that's nice and all, but you're really much better off losing a little Sonic spell power, and going with Rune Arm offhand. Glass Cannon or Toven's add close to 20 Dmg/Star. Get your sonic lore somewhere else than TF, incrementally it doesn't add nearly 20 Dmg/Hit like a rune arm would to your Resonant Arms DPS.

This is why I haven't made a write up of a Bard Thrower yet:
1. It's not worth losing monk and extra stars just for 15-20 Crit range.
2. Resonant Arms isn't powerful enough either to make up for the loss. 

I've said it before and will repeat: A bard thrower will be the best thrower, if they fix the Multiplier in Swashbuckler stance. Until then, it will just be about even with other good thrower builds, or a little bit behind.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #4 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:24am
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Also I should note, really this build should not go ORb or Rune Arm, and instead should probably opt for +5 Damage and 10% Doubleshot with an empty hand.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #5 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:50am
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harharharhar wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:22am:
DPS of Resonant Arms:
6d6*3.35 = 70.3 Dmg/Crit.
Crit of 22% = .78(70.3) + .22(70.3)*2 = 85.732 Sonic Dmg/Crit.

IIRC Resonant Arms cannot crit.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #6 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:31am
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Just get a chord of reprisals.
144 sonic +20 perform.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #7 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 12:30pm
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Notharhar thanks for the reply. Is it too stalkerish to say that your thrower builds are the reason I finally created a vault account? Kind of feels weird to post here with nobody to pop in to immediately explain how a pure monk thrower will always beat every other thrower. Can't have everything I guess.

What do you think about what Harmonic Resonance brings to the table, especially against Red Names? I thought it fit best on a thrower build because of the attack speed having the shortest time to 5 stacks. It's the interaction between it and Resonant Arms that I wanted to build on.

Trollero wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:31am:
Just get a chord of reprisals.
144 sonic +20 perform.

Whaaaaaat? Damn I overlooked that from the lama loot thread. Thanks!
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #8 - Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:07pm
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Trollero wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 3:31am:
Just get a chord of reprisals.
144 sonic +20 perform.



uuuuuuhahhhhhauuuh, .... excuse me, was just very very very "happy" to hear about that item.


Now I need a cig!!!!  Smiley





And clean leather jerkin!!!  Cheesy         (geez! how dirty does "leather Jerkin" sound in that context?)
« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2014 at 6:08pm by »  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #9 - Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:33pm
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harharharhar wrote on Sep 18th, 2014 at 2:22am:
the way to look at this is that Dex is now roughly EQUAL to Doubleshot.

With a traditional thrower with at least /3 Monk, 1 Dex = 2% more shurikens. But without /3 Monk, 1 Dex = 1% more Shuriken (and .5 Damage of course).

So 7% Doubleshot is now equivalent to say, about 6 Dex. So if I were making this build (which I will, IF they fix x3 Multi to thrown in SWB), I would go Warchanter over Shadow Dodge, since there's more good stuff in Warchanter than in TA. TA has 2 Dex, 6 Dex from Shadow Dodge, and No Mercy which is great, but costly and doesn't help you on Red Names.

I was looking at warchanter the other day and it has some nice things in it. 6% Doubleshot , 6% Ranged Power and a little Spell Power is very nice.

But you can't actually have the all of those and still have Exploit Weakness, which would be a MUST on a thrower build utilizing Resonant Arms as a focus. It drops your effective crit range with Shuriken to like 10-20 or so. But it's really hard to model mathematically, for me at least.

DPS of Resonant Arms:
6d6*3.35 = 70.3 Dmg/Crit.
Crit of 22% = .78(70.3) + .22(70.3)*2 = 85.732 Sonic Dmg/Crit.

If you use Exploit Weakness and you estimate your average crit threat to be about 10-20 that's a 55% crit rate. .55*85.73 = 47.1515.

So you see, that's nice and all, but you're really much better off losing a little Sonic spell power, and going with Rune Arm offhand. Glass Cannon or Toven's add close to 20 Dmg/Star. Get your sonic lore somewhere else than TF, incrementally it doesn't add nearly 20 Dmg/Hit like a rune arm would to your Resonant Arms DPS.

This is why I haven't made a write up of a Bard Thrower yet:
1. It's not worth losing monk and extra stars just for 15-20 Crit range.
2. Resonant Arms isn't powerful enough either to make up for the loss. 

I've said it before and will repeat: A bard thrower will be the best thrower, if they fix the Multiplier in Swashbuckler stance. Until then, it will just be about even with other good thrower builds, or a little bit behind.


You really sure the multiplier and threat range is not working in SWB stance?
Just tried with 20 non returning shurikens on an iconic, and everything looks good. It changed the weapons multiplier from x2 to x3 on a shuri, added a few modifiers on the weapon, and tested on a few things in Gianthold, and from 22 in normal hit, did 75 in critical.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #10 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 12:46am
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ElAndroide wrote on Sep 19th, 2014 at 1:33pm:
You really sure the multiplier and threat range is not working in SWB stance?
Just tried with 20 non returning shurikens on an iconic, and everything looks good. It changed the weapons multiplier from x2 to x3 on a shuri, added a few modifiers on the weapon, and tested on a few things in Gianthold, and from 22 in normal hit, did 75 in critical.


It is working, my Axe thrower get 16-20 x4 while swashing. The rate of fire  well, that is not great.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #11 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:26am
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holy fuck they fixed it. this changes everything.

did you try with an enchanted shuriken?

6Ranger/9Bard/5Rogue
« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2014 at 3:54pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #12 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:34am
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yes, I just use the axes because It's a dwarf con thrower, and I prefer the crit multiplier. The shuriken work just fine.

Now for second imagine if you could mix monk and bard? that would be truly unholy!

Looking forward to what you come up with now HarHar, always like your stuff.

Edit* also wanted to add that I prefer the "dashing scoundrel" to the runearm for the 10% double shot and the "slap in the face" for a quick coup de grace for when I don't have time to stop and play a song.
« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:40am by Hag Master »  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #13 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 8:41am
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Hag Master wrote on Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:34am:
yes, I just use the axes because It's a dwarf con thrower, and I prefer the crit multiplier. The shuriken work just fine.

Now for second imagine if you could mix monk and bard? that would be truly unholy!

Looking forward to what you come up with now HarHar, always like your stuff.

Edit* also wanted to add that I prefer the "dashing scoundrel" to the runearm for the 10% double shot and the "slap in the face" for a quick coup de grace for when I don't have time to stop and play a song.


10% doubleshot is tasty, but I think probably a runearm with augment slots could do more dps overall.

I like the idea of the OP, with a nice bonus to sonic spellpower as a addon ... just to minimize the losses of the extra shurikens from the monk levels. I was thinking on mixing the paralizing arrows from Ranger AA into the coup de grace, but dont know how well works a DC26 para arrow with epic elite stuff.

I know it is a pity change the thrown weapons after getting the shuris ... but, I guess on a build without monk levels, It is not worth expending a feat (shuriken expertise) when you have thrown weapons on simple weapons (dart or throwing dagger). You still get the same bonuses for SWB stance.

I guess the problem with 9Ranger/6Bard/5Rogue build are the tensors, but don't know how to mix them all (I guess the answer should be 12arti/5bard/3rogue).
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #14 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 11:32am
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ElAndroide wrote on Sep 20th, 2014 at 8:41am:
10% doubleshot is tasty, but I think probably a runearm with augment slots could do more dps overall.

I like the idea of the OP, with a nice bonus to sonic spellpower as a addon ... just to minimize the losses of the extra shurikens from the monk levels. I was thinking on mixing the paralizing arrows from Ranger AA into the coup de grace, but dont know how well works a DC26 para arrow with epic elite stuff.

I know it is a pity change the thrown weapons after getting the shuris ... but, I guess on a build without monk levels, It is not worth expending a feat (shuriken expertise) when you have thrown weapons on simple weapons (dart or throwing dagger). You still get the same bonuses for SWB stance.

I guess the problem with 9Ranger/6Bard/5Rogue build are the tensors, but don't know how to mix them all (I guess the answer should be 12arti/5bard/3rogue).


Or, simple as it can get..
Scroll tensers and go with a rogue bard ranger build.
Yes scroll tensors works and ranger gives overall more then artie or wizz do dps wise for shuri builds.
I played a shuri a month and smthn ago with scroll tensors and i have never met a single issue with doing so.
No encounter lasted long enough anyways like duration of tensers and during boss fights 25 archer stacks were more benefital with aimed shot then anything a non ranger build can offer.
You can basically play without tensers since trash is nonexistant once you get mortal shuri if you wish or in d crusader.
Personally i was playing with scroll tensors and stance swap to have perma 20 archer stacks even when imp precising since im more the clickie addictive type.
If i was to build a thrower with bard, definitely some kind ranger rogue bard splash for now
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #15 - Sep 20th, 2014 at 3:55pm
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6Ranger/9Bard/5Rogue

Scroll Tensers

« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:02pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #16 - Sep 23rd, 2014 at 4:29pm
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harharharhar wrote on Sep 20th, 2014 at 5:26am:
holy fuck they fixed it. this changes everything.

Did they fix the SWF slowdown for throwers, too? Or are toons with SWF still the slowest chuckers?
  

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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #17 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 1:28pm
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Revaulting wrote on Sep 23rd, 2014 at 4:29pm:
Did they fix the SWF slowdown for throwers, too? Or are toons with SWF still the slowest chuckers?


Will leave the answer for the thrower master, but, as far as I know, SWF will not ever work on throwing weapons. Lazy to post the dev link, i think I've read it somewhere.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #18 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 2:42pm
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ElAndroide wrote on Sep 24th, 2014 at 1:28pm:
Will leave the answer for the thrower master, but, as far as I know, SWF will not ever work on throwing weapons. Lazy to post the dev link, i think I've read it somewhere.

Slightly different issue. SWF does not give its speed increase to thrown weapons. Confirmed and verified, and apparently WAI, despite the description.

SWF has been slowing down thrown weapons. As in, SWF provides a static debuff to thrown speed.
  

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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #19 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 8:17pm
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Revaulting wrote on Sep 24th, 2014 at 2:42pm:
SWF has been slowing down thrown weapons. As in, SWF provides a static debuff to thrown speed.



Why? why turbine? is it a screw up? cause it seems much to complicated to have been on purpose.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #20 - Sep 25th, 2014 at 2:01am
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If they really did fix those and with the changes to OC I may have to revisit my thrower again.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #21 - Sep 26th, 2014 at 11:27pm
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They probably wrote a - instead of a +.
  

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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #22 - Sep 28th, 2014 at 3:21am
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Testing right now, the +2 threat works as does the resonance, but the +1 multiplier from swashbuckling is not working at least with my GS shurikens.
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #23 - Sep 29th, 2014 at 1:22pm
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wtf is is working or not.

havent been on ddo in a week or two this is the only reason i would log in
  
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Re: Resonant Arms thrower
Reply #24 - Sep 29th, 2014 at 3:27pm
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harharharhar wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 1:22pm:
wtf is is working or not.

havent been on ddo in a week or two this is the only reason i would log in

In the meantime you wanna blow our minds with a brutal throw FvS splash? Is it axes now?
  
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