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Selee
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #25 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:15pm
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Right now I have a lv 13 swashy rogue (7 bard/6 rog) that I had figured to take all the rest of the way rogue for a 13/7 mix for a rog past life/TR after capping the Shadowdancer epic destiny.  I now have to weigh the Opportunist feat vs taking a FvS lvl for warpriestly Divine Might goodness..

Opportunist and more sneak dmg or Divine Might and a free Nightshield spell for MM absorb?  Choices choices..
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #26 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:40am
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SickCat wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 4:47pm:
And by the by...kukri on an assassin...I didn't think they would trump daggers, but it appears they do.  They're awesome.


Should be equal with knife specialization. Something not WAI?
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #27 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:52am
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KtA did not boost my test druid's damage on the dummy while in wolf-form. Out of wolf-form, yes. Same for Harper INT to damage. (I imagine INT to attack as well, but who gives a fuck?)
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #28 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 5:08pm
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 2:52am:
KtA did not boost my test druid's damage on the dummy while in wolf-form. Out of wolf-form, yes. Same for Harper INT to damage. (I imagine INT to attack as well, but who gives a fuck?)



That is a odd bug. Perhaps they were sloppy and heavy handed when the were trying to eliminate the cheese and overshot the mark. 

No doubt they will fix it by 2018.
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #29 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 6:47pm
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SickCat wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 4:47pm:
I (painfully) put enough lettuce into the Harper to get Int to Dam on my assassin...wow...seriously...wow.  It's not really the first number damage that's the big draw (it's larger for sure), but my crits are BIG now...for a rogue.  Sneak numbers are ~150...damage boosted sneaks are ~250, with crits between 3-600.  I can actually kill things TO THEIR FACE!  31d6 sneak damage looks cool.

And by the by...kukri on an assassin...I didn't think they would trump daggers, but it appears they do.  They're awesome.


Why are kukri outperforming daggers? Aren't they the same after Knife Specialization? Only damage type is different.

And with INT-to-damage daggers and kukri are not the only things usable anymore. Yes, Knife Specialization is good, but it just makes them 1d4/18x3 weapons, which is not the best thing out there, especially if you run in LD with Pulverizer/Headman's Chop - though I didn't run the numbers
but if you run in, say, LD, other weapons might be nice too - need to run calculations, but [W] on daggers and kukri sucks ass.
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #30 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:24pm
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Hag Master wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 5:08pm:
That is a odd bug. Perhaps they were sloppy and heavy handed when the were trying to eliminate the cheese and overshot the mark. 

No doubt they will fix it by 2018.

The thing to do is go back and see if it's strictly a KtA thing, or if INT to damage somehow messed with the way KtA works.

But I lost interest, so that would qualify as "work." So fuck it.
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #31 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 9:35am
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Revaulting wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
or if INT to damage somehow messed with the way KtA works

I have KTA on my pure kensai.  I'm checking now but hit the submit button too soon.
20 int gives about a 2 point change anecdotally.  I can't parse.  Top hit was 73 before KTA, 75 after.  Tested on training dummy.  Only thing my kensai can kill and not need a rez shrine.

Selee wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:15pm:
Opportunist and more sneak dmg or Divine Might and a free Nightshield spell for MM absorb?  Choices choices.

If you solo DM/Nightshield will net your more time savings than Opportunist.
« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2014 at 9:43am by Aeolwind »  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #32 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 4:39am
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TL;DR: Anything to do with INT in the Harper Tree produces no effect in animal form (Combat DCs untested). Same if not in animal form, but using handwraps or no weapon in hand.

Sun Elf, 9 Druid, 3 Ranger, 3 Cleric (to test whether Righteous Weapons stacks with Harper Enchantment; no points were in Cleric trees during this test.)
Relevant Feats: Power Attack, Greater SWF (10 Melee Power; +50% dmg from related ability score).
+2 ship buff to INT and STR. No other wpn or dmg-affecting ship buff.
+5 STR item, No INT item (I used Fox's Cunning to check Harper INT to dmg):
INT 26: +8 mod (30 w/Fox's: +10 mod), STR 21: +5 mod (16 w/o STR item: +3 mod) (25 w/STR item + Animal Growth: +7 mod)
Kept the STR item on for all tests, unless noted.
Harper Tree INT to att and INT to dmg enhancements. +6 to melee power.
EDIT: Forgot about Instinctive Fighting in the Nature's Warrior tree. +2 base melee dmg in Animal Forms from that.


All tests were performed with an "unkilled" training dummy, so "helpless" didn't mess with the numbers.

Winter Wolf form


Wielding Dawnbreaker: 1.5[1d10] +3 enhancement (+4 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

Power Attack inactive
- STR item: 11-22
+ STR item: 13-24 (1.5[1d10] + 26, according to the inventory drop-down details. lol)
+ KtA: 13-24
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-24
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-24
+ Animal Growth: 16-26 (That's right, a +3 to the min, but only a +2 to the max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 16-26
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 16-26

PA active
- STR item: 17-27
+ STR item: 19-30
+ KtA: 19-30
+ Fox's Cunning: 19-30
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 19-30
+ Animal Growth: 22-32 (Again +3 min, +2 max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 22-32
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 22-32


Wielding Dawnbreaker: 1.5[1d10] +3 enhancement (+4 with Harper Enchantment)
+ Burning Light (orb):1d6 +0 (Harper Enhancement does not seem to affect this). GSWF in effect.

No Change.


Wielding rangen (ML6, non-paragon) +1 club (+2 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 9-19
+ STR item: 11-22
+ KtA: 11-22
+ Fox's Cunning: 11-22
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 11-22
+ Animal Growth: 13-24
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 13-24
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-24

PA active
- STR item: 15-25
+ STR item: 17-27
+ KtA: 17-27
+ Fox's Cunning: 17-27
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 17-27
+ Animal Growth: 19-30
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 19-30
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 19-30

+ Burning Light (orb): No Change.


Wielding no weapons. GSWF not in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 6-15 (Theory: +6 Melee power has no effect at +3 mod.)
+ STR item: 8-18  (Should be 8-17. +6 Melee Power's effect at +5 mod, I guess.)
+ KtA: 8-18
+ Fox's Cunning: 8-18
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 8-18
+ Animal Growth: 10-20
+ Animal Growth + KtA: 10-20
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 10-20

PA active
- STR item: 11-21 (Should be 11-20)
+ STR item: 13-23 (Should be 13-22)
+ KtA: 13-23
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-23
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-23
+ Animal Growth: 15-25
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 15-25
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 15-25

+ Burning Light (orb): No Change.


Wolf Form (not Winter Wolf)

Wielding Dawnbreaker: 1.5[1d10] +3 enhancement (+4 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

Power Attack inactive
- STR item: 11-17
+ STR item: 13-19
+ KtA: 13-19
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-19
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-19
+ Animal Growth: 16-22 (+3 to the min, and +3 to the max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 16-22
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 16-22

PA active
- STR item: 17-23
+ STR item: 19-25
+ KtA: 19-25
+ Fox's Cunning: 19-25
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 19-25
+ Animal Growth: 22-27 (Back again to +3 min, +2 max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 22-27
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 22-27


+ Burning Light (orb): No Change.


Wielding no weapons. GSWF not in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 6-11
+ STR item: 8-13
+ KtA: 8-13
+ Fox's Cunning: 8-13
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 8-13
+ Animal Growth: 10-15
+ Animal Growth + KtA: 10-15
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 10-15

PA active
- STR item: 11-16
+ STR item: 13-19 (should be 13-18)
+ KtA: 13-19
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-19
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-19
+ Animal Growth: 15-21 (should be 15-20)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 15-21
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 15-21


+ Burning Light (orb): No Change.


Bear Form

Wielding Dawnbreaker: 1.5[1d10] +3 enhancement (+4 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

Power Attack inactive
- STR item: 11-22
+ STR item: 13-22
+ KtA: 13-22
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-22
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-22
+ Animal Growth: 16-24 (Again +3 to the min, but only a +2 to the max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 16-24
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 16-24

PA active
- STR item: 17-27
+ STR item: 19-27
+ KtA: 19-27
+ Fox's Cunning: 19-27
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 19-27
+ Animal Growth: 22-30 (+3 min, +3 max)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 22-30
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 22-30


Wielding no weapons. GSWF not in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 6-13
+ STR item: 8-15
+ KtA: 8-15
+ Fox's Cunning: 8-15
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 8-15
+ Animal Growth: 10-18 (should be 10-17)
+ Animal Growth + KtA: 10-18
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 10-18

PA active
- STR item: 11-19 (should be 11-18)
+ STR item: 13-21 (should be 13-20)
+ KtA: 13-21
+ Fox's Cunning: 13-21
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 13-21
+ Animal Growth: 15-23 (should be 15-22)
+ Animal Growth +KtA: 15-23
+ Animal Growth + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 15-23


[I sort of haphazardly checked Ram's Might here and there; it added +2 dmg (+3 total, when animal growth was not active), as expected. Testing could certainly be more thorough, though.]


Sun Elf (no Animal Form) INT 28: +9 mod (32 w/Fox's: +11 mod), STR same as in other tests

Wielding Dawnbreaker: 1.5[1d10] +3 enhancement (+4 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

Power Attack inactive
- STR item: 26-42
- STR item, +KtA: 31-47
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 31-47
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 37-53
+ STR item: 26-42
+ KtA: 31-47
+ Fox's Cunning: 31-47
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 37-53
+ Animal Growth: (can't be cast on non-animal forms)

PA active
- STR item: 32-48
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 37-53
- STR item, + KtA: 37-53
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 42-59
+ STR item: 32-48
+ KtA: 37-53
+ Fox's Cunning: 37-53
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 42-59


+ Burning Light (orb): No Change.


Wielding rangen (ML6, non-paragon) +1 club (+2 with Harper Enchantment). GSWF in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 24-30
- STR item, + KtA: 29-34
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 29-34
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 34-40
+ STR item: 24-30
+ KtA: 29-34
+ Fox's Cunning: 29-34
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 34-40

PA active
- STR item: 30-35
- STR item, + KtA: 34-40
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 34-40
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 40-46
+ STR item: 30-35
+ KtA: 34-40
+ Fox's Cunning: 34-40
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 40-46


+ Burning Light (orb): No change.


Wielding no weapons. GSWF not in effect.

PA inactive
- STR item: 4-6
- STR item, + KtA: 4-6
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 4-6
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 4-6
+ STR item: 6-8
+ KtA: 6-8
+ Fox's Cunning: 6-8
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 6-8

PA active
- STR item: 9-11
- STR item, + KtA: 9-11
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 9-11
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 9-11
+ STR item: 11-13
+ KtA: 11-13
+ Fox's Cunning: 11-13
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 11-13


Unarmed + Burning Light (orb): This shield bashes with the orb, doing force damage. The orb would do INT dmg without Harper enhancements.

PA inactive
- STR item: 10-15
- STR item, + KtA: 14-20
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 12-18
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 18-23
+ STR item: 10-15
+ KtA: 14-20
+ Fox's Cunning: 12-18
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 18-23

PA active
- STR item: 15-21
- STR item, + KtA: 20-25
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning: 18-23
- STR item, + Fox's Cunning + KtA: 23-28
+ STR item: 15-21
+ KtA: 20-25
+ Fox's Cunning: 18-23
+ Fox's Cunning + KtA: 23-28



ADDENDUM: I got a pair of +2 handwraps to my test druid. Apart from the +2, there was no difference between the wraps and weaponless. This doesn't rule out strange effects if Monk levels are present, of course.
« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45am by Revaulting »  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #33 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 7:22am
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More TL;DR stuff:

I bought some plain, non-magical weapons from the harbor store.

Basically, KtA affects everything (except handwraps), unless you're in Animal Form. Even Throwing Daggers & Throwing Hammers, which I expected to be broken.

I didn't test Flameblade above, because its effect is currently ... somewhat indiscriminate. I'm not spending as much time with these tests, so you might get slightly different numbers if you test them yourself.


Flameblade

Animal Forms

STR affects: yes. KtA affects: no. INT to dmg: no.


Sun Elf

STR affects: no. KtA affects: Yes. INT to dmg: yes.

Dual-Wield: 8-19; PA active: 13-24.
+ KtA: 12-23; PA active: 18-28.

Single Wield:25-31; PA active: 31-37
+ KtA: 30-35; PA active: 35-41


Another quirky thing about Animal Forms: You can't shield bash, so if you hold block while attacking, you attack as normal. With an orb in your offhand, this results in pretty quickly fluctuating saves. I have yet to try it out with Improved Shield Bashing. (If it works, get the right macro together, + points/gear into tumble, and you can basically quest while permablocking. Just make sure you unblock if you should need to jump.)


In case you were wondering, (Fucking gobshite Turbine vs. spellchecker, ofc.) "Rightous" Weapons does stack with the Harper Enchantment. (Which means I have to go back and double-check Artificer enhancements. I was pretty sure I was not seeing it stack with Harper's.) I added 2 tiers and Dawnbreaker dmg went from 26-42 (no PA), to 29-45 (no PA). With that increase (+3), I'm guessing Melee Power had something to do with it, unless Turbine has wpn enhancements coded to be included in the "+50% melee damage from related ability score."

Edited:
Finally got around to testing on Druid and Sorc elemental forms, as well as PM undead forms.
KtA damage applies while in these forms. (Unless unarmed or wielding handwraps, obvs.)
« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2016 at 8:21pm by Revaulting »  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #34 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 7:42am
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Hey, thanks for the testing! I feel awesome for dumping int and fully ignoring int to damage on my swf wolf build  Cheesy
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #35 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 10:55am
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Top job Revaulting!

Thanks for doing it and taking the time to post man.
  
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Re: Know the Angle - how does it REALLY work?
Reply #36 - Oct 15th, 2014 at 7:11am
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The half int mod insight bonus for tactics fully stacks with insightful combat mastery.
Tested with adamantine cloak of the bear.
  
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