P.S: Character customization is a big plus, it's probably the reason why I've been playing DDO so long tbh, but mainly endgame content and not running out of shit to do.

What do you consider hard. 

Wow heroic raids are hard in that if one of the group fks up, then you restart. Not hard, just small margin for error.

Eve could be at the top as far as risk, but its not raid so much as sandbox. (cant find the actual xkcd, but http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70099#p2566035, seems it was not XKCD).

GW2 endgame I found boring, but that was like 5 months after release, not sure what it is like now.

MOBA games like LoL are the hardest end game, in that trying to get a Challenger rating is impossible for pretty much everyone.

Sasha wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:


Something Korean comes to mind 

Grind of epic proportions 

Sasha wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:

Only other MMOs I've played for a while are Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online. Both are completly free to play now so easy to try out.

As for the points you mentionned, I think RO fits those the most between the two. Both are pretty old by the way.

L2 was made rather easy all the way to a certain point (level 85), providing you free gear and almost everything you need. At that point though it pretty much goes back to what it used to be. Grindy leveling, crafting and a lot more difficult. Basically they're just rushing new players close to the current endgame because nothing else happens before that. Not much character customization though in that one. Also an open PVP game, with sieges and stuff.

RO was also made easier compared to what it was way back. But it is much harder to learn/play than L2 is right now. Lots of grinding for exp and money. Has a lot of skill/stat choices available so you can end up with plenty of different builds for the same character class. Mistakes can be quite deadly.

Aeolwind wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 3:59pm:

I had my eye on Everquest, it seemed like exactly what I was looking for despite the dated graphics, I'm just not able (and I don't have enough information) to pick between EQ, EQ2 or EQ: Project 1999, any ideas?

For those interested, I watched this video of the old EQ, it's quite interesting if you're into the whole mmorpg history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqhvTlR1WSc

Distributed wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:


Cool, didn't know L2 was f2p now. I'll check them out, thanks.

NOTSunnyshadow wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

Rift is quite fun. hvnt tried out GW2 yet, however i hear nothing but good things from Kat and G who play it.

Sasha wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:


I havnt gotten tot he "endgame" of Archeage just yet. But its got Lots of Grinding, Quite an extensive Crafting system (Literally EVERYTHING is crafted in some fashion, other than dungeon drops) Lots of customization, ~120 class combinations overall. (Currently a demonologist, its not horrible. I think ima change over to a stone arrow though, or possibly a primeval. well see )

The only problem ive found with AA so far however is all the bots. its slowly getting under control however. There are "dupes" but its mostly restricted to the russians and koreans. Hnvt personally heard of anyone on NA utilizing anything but bots, so far.

Jon Van Caneghem wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:


If there was a more reliable way to get LP other than staying logged in/drinking Lp pots, the game would flourish.

Archeage crafting has pretty good crafting, till you get to the top tier stuff then it is RNG to what stats you get.  You'll still get that hat or item you want but the stats are all RNG, there are set combinations and someone figured that you have about a 25% chance to get the stats you want but it may not be the rarity you want.  Basically, when you craft top tier, you are just crafting a chance to get what you want.  Fucking sucks that part but otherwise the crafting is pretty good.  You can get land and grow all that also.  PvP is end game in Archeage.  I haven't done all the dungeons, really only done 1 because I've been very interested in the crafting system and the farmville part of the game.  Gear is huge, the difference between a level 40 and 50 is pretty big.  GW2 you had a chance against a higher level, Archeage you don't have much if they have at least level 50 gear and you are still stuck in lower level gear because you outleveled it crafting and farming.  Labor is a huge resource to manage because it is needed for everything that is not questing and some quests take a bit of labor(crafting ones specificall.)

GW2 end game is WvW.  PvE is just shit and PvP is where that end game is but WvW is more zerg vs zerg in upper tiers and lower tier servers you are steamrolling or being steamrolled by the zerg.  PvE may have gotten a bit better since I last played, last year, but I doubt it because developers can't make a decent mob AI to deal with players ability to dodge.  They also put on stupid buffs instead of using already available mechanics(stuff players can also cast,) but I think that is typical developer mentality.  Combat otherwise I feel is really good because dodging meant dodging and not relying on a stat for a chance to evade and armor is really damage reduction, not if you hit or miss.  I do miss the combat, not enough skills for my preferance and no spare hotbars to put consumables on, but I do miss the combat.  Been hard to adjust to Archeage.

Vendui wrote on Oct 28^th, 2014 at 8:57pm:


Second account.  Purchase 2 apex from main.  Easy to make enough gold on my server.  Give to alt account.  Generate labor while off line or if you have a second PC, park while you do other stuff with your main.

Off line you generate 1440 labor in a 24 hour period.  1440 labor = 12 trade packs.  Take to your preferred gold vendor and send profits to your main.  Mats for trade packs are cheap on my server and you don't need land to generate gold.  Growing your own mats is more of a waste of labor and you are better off using your land for cheese or honey or for your crafting materials, some shit is just too expensive.  Once mats go up in price, I'll consider growing again, but until then, I'm stocking up and letting others waste their labor growing that stuff.

Have you tried The Secret World? It sounds like something you might like. I was hooked on it for several months earlier this year before coming back to DDO, and I am seriously considering reinstalling it and playing some more. I call it, "Call of Cthulu Online."

The learning curve is something else; there are no classes. There are 9 weapons you can mix and match in different ways, though you can only use 2 at a time, and nothing works the way it does in other MMOs.

Your normal quests (missions) are in a sandbox, so you are running into other people as you travel around, but the raids (dungeons) are instanced so you don't have any interference.

The dungeons themselves are pretty cool; on the hardest levels, each boss fight becomes an exquisite dance of positioning and timing, and while they aren't terribly long, they can be complex, and groups will normally do them in runs of 3 or 4 (called 18 or 24, since there are 6 bosses in each dungeon).

The grind is that pretty much all of your gear you make and improve yourself, which requires tokens, which you get from either dungeons or PvP, but they are different (PvP gear uses different tokens from elite gear, etc).

Which brings you crafting: It's basically a turn-in system, but each item can have stuff added to it to change its properties.

Holy crap, I want to go install it and play some more.

Jon Van Caneghem wrote on Oct 30^th, 2014 at 5:01pm:



Building decks was sort of like building characters in DDO, but you didn't have to reincarnate.

On the other hand, the idea of "grind" in any other game sort of pales in comparison to TSW's version of completionist   

I'm still playing DDO, no mmorpg has fully convinced me yet, usually I found that the good things about them (endgame or whatever) doesn't make up for the bad things (excessive hacks or slow combat).

I tried L2 because I had a 6ish year old account I played for a month when I was younger, but the combat and the movement system bored me to death.