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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) U29 AA Shuriken (Read 82641 times)
Meat-Head
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #175 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:05am
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so... I made it to lvl 24 on that build. By the end of that, the damage output was fine, but I noticed some little things I disliked.

1. UMD--this is technically a minor thing, but having to gear swap to cast any significant scroll gets annoying to me. Keeping tensers up? pfffft. This is minor also, but I had to UMD to equip Celestia in off hand. I should have just done Lawful good to avoid that. But, whatevs. Say I'm running EEs, and I die a couple of times. I literally couldn't even equip it till I waited for death pens to fade... Silly. Now, this toon--for some reason I don't remember--doesn't have a Shroud cha skills item. So, that would have helped a lot. But, it stills requires gear swapping which is annoying to me.

2. No blue bar means low sp pool for cocoons. This was annoying multiple times. Relying on gear/augments for SP--and then not having much--is annoying.

3. No PRR/MRR. Ok, that's not true per se. But, compared to armor-wearers, it's weak. Real weak. Yeah, you're fast and abundant steppy, but lots of kiting is not my fav either.

4. Ran out of ki too much. Yes, even with the passive ki-regen built in, if you a.stepped a couple of times you couldn't run 10k stars. Annoying AND loss of dmg. I found myself swapping to water stance for more ki regen and mediating fairly often when waiting, etc. Never seemed to have as much as I wanted.

----

All that and I saw pally/rogue repeater builds in heavy armor doing more damage...


So, I TRed into a repeater build. Better, defenses, better UMD, better SP pool, better HPs, better dmg... I'll miss the evasion--though I can do light armor if needed--and I'll miss run speed and step.   

I TRed out of monkcher for this throwing build. I didn't like it as much as monkcher overall. But, it was a fun experience for a while.
  

A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #176 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:16am
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It's built to perform at cap. You didn't make it to cap. I am disappoint.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #177 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:46am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:16am:
It's built to perform at cap. You didn't make it to cap. I am disappoint.



I figured as much. Mortal fear would make a huge dif.

But honestly, I want to be able to eTR and have fun leveling etc.   Sad
  

A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #178 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:50am
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Meat-Head wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:46am:
I figured as much. Mortal fear would make a huge dif.

But honestly, I want to be able to eTR and have fun leveling etc.   Sad


Did you try the next lower difficulty?
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #179 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 4:37am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:50am:
Did you try the next lower difficulty?


LOL, is this the new "Hi Welcome"?
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #180 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 11:38am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:50am:
Did you try the next lower difficulty?



....

Yes, yes. But, EEs are more fun, and almost anything can steamroll EHs. Too late now anyway. I rolled a dorf version of the pally/rogue yesterday. Maybe it'll suck. I'll let you know.

Besides, this is my ranged alt--not my main. So, I'm looking more for easy/fun. The repeater build fits the bill a little better, I think.

I followed your Pally build for dummies on my main, btw. I like that one.
« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015 at 11:40am by Meat-Head »  

A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #181 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:31pm
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Meat-Head wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 11:38am:
....

Yes, yes. But, EEs are more fun, and almost anything can steamroll EHs. Too late now anyway. I rolled a dorf version of the pally/rogue yesterday. Maybe it'll suck. I'll let you know.

Besides, this is my ranged alt--not my main. So, I'm looking more for easy/fun. The repeater build fits the bill a little better, I think.

I followed your Pally build for dummies on my main, btw. I like that one.


11Rog/6Ranger/3 Monk or 13 Rogue/4Ranger/3 Monk steamroll EE's from level 20-28. At least, mine does. I've been doing back to back eTR's and I haven't experienced any real slowdowns. And I don't have perfect gear setups for each level like many people.

I haven't had a pure monk in about 3 or 4 updates, so I can't comment. But on the general stuff:

1. UMD is a huge issue, and something I've longed complained about with the Pure Monk builds. If you can't no fail a Tensers, you're failing I think. Although, with 3 Bard PL's, and 3 Skill Master EPLs, I think you can get pretty close, but you have to wear a UMD item and a CHA skills item if I'm not mistaken.
2. Blue Bar: While having ranger levels doesn't make a huge difference for this problem, it's better than no ranger levels on a Pure Monk. By and large is a problem for everyone who has to self heal with SP and isn't a caster. How did you avoid this problem on your Monkcher? Slayer Arrow + Heals and buffs eats up SP too.
3. Armor, of course these classes don't have PRR and MRR. But considering you should be in damage range of physical attacks about 10% of the time of a melee, you shouldn't need any more than 10% of the Damage mitigation. and Reaching 40-50 PRR is not difficult with all the 30 Sheltering items laying around. I will admit that there is a bit of an MRR disadvantage to Robe wearing characters right now, as mobs in EE's have started doing legit damage with non-evadable spells. Even so, they are rarely unavoidable if you move.
*4. Ki: I found I had to take points in Henshin and either Twist Enlightenment or run in Water to always have Ki for 10K, let alone Shadowfade or Abundant Step. Realistically, you need all 3 to use all those things with any regularity. Which is a huge investment. It's why my builds eventually abandoned 10k Stars.

Sounds like you largely lacked practice and experience to be successful with a thrower (you admittedly never had one before), and in my opinion chose the simplest but also least compelling and lowest power variant (short of a non-monk version).

Yes, 14 pally or 18 Rogue xbow characters are currently the newb friendly ranged builds of the day, and they are super easy button.

You have given me the idea to try a heavily armored Halfing thrower, however.
« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:33pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #182 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:35pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:16am:
It's built to perform at cap. You didn't make it to cap. I am disappoint.


to be fair, everything that is worth capping is built to perform at cap
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #183 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:28pm
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Hang on, don't you still need 100% of the damage mitigation, but only 10% of the time? You don't get hit 90% softer when you are in range the 10 of the time.

Have I missed a nice feature?
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #184 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:32pm
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kum-gulp wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 3:28pm:
Hang on, don't you still need 100% of the damage mitigation, but only 10% of the time? You don't get hit 90% softer when you are in range the 10 of the time.

Have I missed a nice feature?


I do not agree with your logic, as it lacks real world context.

Melee's need to be able to take 1-5 hits at a time, pause, heal, hit hit hit hit hit, continually, until all creatures are dead.

Ranged characters need to get whacked once or twice and hightail away from damage source. Which is easy, since they're ranged. If you're in range of multiple sources of full damage like a melee character any more often than very rarely, at full speed, generally in the air and jumping, you're playing wrong. And probably need the same levels of mitigation.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #185 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 4:36pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:31pm:
11Rog/6Ranger/3 Monk or 13 Rogue/4Ranger/3 Monk steamroll EE's from level 20-28. At least, mine does. I've been doing back to back eTR's and I haven't experienced any real slowdowns. And I don't have perfect gear setups for each level like many people.

I haven't had a pure monk in about 3 or 4 updates, so I can't comment. But on the general stuff:

1. UMD is a huge issue, and something I've longed complained about with the Pure Monk builds. If you can't no fail a Tensers, you're failing I think. Although, with 3 Bard PL's, and 3 Skill Master EPLs, I think you can get pretty close, but you have to wear a UMD item and a CHA skills item if I'm not mistaken.
2. Blue Bar: While having ranger levels doesn't make a huge difference for this problem, it's better than no ranger levels on a Pure Monk. By and large is a problem for everyone who has to self heal with SP and isn't a caster. How did you avoid this problem on your Monkcher? Slayer Arrow + Heals and buffs eats up SP too.
3. Armor, of course these classes don't have PRR and MRR. But considering you should be in damage range of physical attacks about 10% of the time of a melee, you shouldn't need any more than 10% of the Damage mitigation. and Reaching 40-50 PRR is not difficult with all the 30 Sheltering items laying around. I will admit that there is a bit of an MRR disadvantage to Robe wearing characters right now, as mobs in EE's have started doing legit damage with non-evadable spells. Even so, they are rarely unavoidable if you move.
*4. Ki: I found I had to take points in Henshin and either Twist Enlightenment or run in Water to always have Ki for 10K, let alone Shadowfade or Abundant Step. Realistically, you need all 3 to use all those things with any regularity. Which is a huge investment. It's why my builds eventually abandoned 10k Stars.

Sounds like you largely lacked practice and experience to be successful with a thrower (you admittedly never had one before), and in my opinion chose the simplest but also least compelling and lowest power variant (short of a non-monk version).

Yes, 14 pally or 18 Rogue xbow characters are currently the newb friendly ranged builds of the day, and they are super easy button.

You have given me the idea to try a heavily armored Halfing thrower, however.



Well, my experience was definitely NOT facerollesque on EEs when it came to damage. Because the damage was so-so, stuff didn't die fast enough and therefore I had to kite longer and therefore I would get hit here and there more often and therefore die sometimes. It got old.

I'm sure once I got a t3 shuriken, mortal fear would have mowed down stuff a lot faster. But, I tried t1 TF, shadowstar, and 3 different cormyrian spelltouched ones. All were just so-so imo. As for sneak dmg, I was getting around 40 per hit on sneak, I think. I had deception and imp. dec going. I had a piece of  moderate sneak dmg gear.


Depending on thrower and mob and destiny and whether helpless or not, I saw first dmg numbers of 60ish base doubled/tripled on a crit. Plus the poison dmg plus the vorpal dmg. plus sunburst/radiance from Celestia. It added up to being ok but not great.

My dex was only mid 50s. So, there's that too. I could have eked out another 5-10 from higher dex eventually too.

If the damage would have been about 30-50% higher, I might have stayed with it. As it was, it didn't feel like enough to compensate for lack of PRR/MRR/AC and the other annoyances.
« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015 at 5:05pm by Meat-Head »  

A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #186 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 5:11pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:31pm:
11Rog/6Ranger/3 Monk or 13 Rogue/4Ranger/3 Monk steamroll EE's from level 20-28. At least, mine does. I've been doing back to back eTR's and I haven't experienced any real slowdowns. And I don't have perfect gear setups for each level like many people.


Yeah, it didn't feel that way on the monk. Sad

Quote:
2. Blue Bar: While having ranger levels doesn't make a huge difference for this problem, it's better than no ranger levels on a Pure Monk. By and large is a problem for everyone who has to self heal with SP and isn't a caster. How did you avoid this problem on your Monkcher? Slayer Arrow + Heals and buffs eats up SP too.


The ranger levels on my Monkcher gave enough for me to add an augment and feel ok. But, if you're relying on augments ONLY, then you only have a couple hundred sp total. I don't have any FVS/Sorc PLs on this toon.


Quote:
*4. Ki: I found I had to take points in Henshin and either Twist Enlightenment or run in Water to always have Ki for 10K, let alone Shadowfade or Abundant Step. Realistically, you need all 3 to use all those things with any regularity. Which is a huge investment. It's why my builds eventually abandoned 10k Stars.


If I were to do it again, I would go with doubleshot gear and avoid 10k. I was trying to use it as much as I could, and I definitely couldn't keep it on cool down.


Quote:
Sounds like you largely lacked practice and experience to be successful with a thrower (you admittedly never had one before), and in my opinion chose the simplest but also least compelling and lowest power variant (short of a non-monk version).

Yes, 14 pally or 18 Rogue xbow characters are currently the newb friendly ranged builds of the day, and they are super easy button.

You have given me the idea to try a heavily armored Halfing thrower, however.


True true. I was looking for pretty easy. With the right gear/destiny setup, I'm sure it would have been fine. But, I needed something better out of the gate to want to enjoy even getting to that point.

I could actually see trying a rogue-based one in the future.
« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015 at 5:12pm by Meat-Head »  

A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule.

Disavowed wrote on Apr 19th, 2016 at 1:51pm:
Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration.

Artorias wrote on Feb 10th, 2016 at 2:15pm:
Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #187 - Jul 21st, 2015 at 5:19am
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Ah ok. Yes, I run away when needed, it's why mine has more Monk levels and Sprint Boost. I have been popped down to nearly-dead levels in those two hits that catch you though. That's why I asked, thought maybe I was missing an extra mitigation layer. Of course they don't always hit, it's often Dodged, but when they do... I wonder about fitting in Fighter levels and adding % HP.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #188 - Jul 22nd, 2015 at 11:35pm
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Meat-Head wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 5:11pm:
True true. I was looking for pretty easy. With the right gear/destiny setup, I'm sure it would have been fine. But, I needed something better out of the gate to want to enjoy even getting to that point.


Obviously you should have lower expectations if you're lacking, gear, tomes, past lives, etc.

Meat-Head wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:05am:
UMD.



The UMD is doable at 20 without swaps.

11 ranks
4 morale (GH clicky or scroll)
2 luck (augment)
3 competence (bunny hat)
3 arti PLS
3 martial EPLs
3 inherent (tome)
3 guild (ship buff)
1 profane (litany)

33 so far, target number is 39 so we only need 22 cha.

8 base
7 enhancement
5 inherent (tome)
1 profane (litany)
1 exceptional (augment)

All this is obviously not easily achievable, but it can be made significantly easier if you're willing to wear a greensteel accessory full time for +4 or +6 exceptional charisma skills (helps with the SP problem too.) You can put +6 on t3 of a Con Opp or you can put +4 on t2 of a Min2.

Meat-Head wrote on Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:05am:
Ki.


I've not had problems spamming 10k with 8ap in henshin and enlightenment twisted. I don't usually spam AS or shadow fade though. If I needed to, I know I could water stance/stealth/meditate to regain ki though.
« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2015 at 11:43pm by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #189 - Jul 23rd, 2015 at 1:54am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 22nd, 2015 at 11:35pm:
I don't usually spam AS or shadow fade though. If I needed to, I know I could water stance/stealth/meditate to regain ki though.


The key to maintaining ki.  Wink
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #190 - Jul 23rd, 2015 at 1:55am
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BTW, AA imbues work on shurikens still?
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #191 - Jul 23rd, 2015 at 10:15am
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I've heard yes as long as you're willing to spend, imbue, reset or something but I don't know exact steps as it crossed over from funny 'ploit to chore for me at that point.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #192 - Jul 23rd, 2015 at 9:55pm
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Alex DeLarge wrote on Jul 23rd, 2015 at 1:55am:
BTW, AA imbues work on shurikens still?


It worked when I tried it ~6 months ago, but it wasn't worth the AP.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #193 - Jul 28th, 2015 at 10:39pm
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PSA: The vulnerability proc from 1st degree prevents Sting of the Ninja from functioning at all. Touch of Flames or Touch of Shadows (depending on what you're fighting) are preferred instead contrary to what I posted earlier.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #194 - Jul 29th, 2015 at 3:07pm
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Interesting, thanks.
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #195 - Jul 29th, 2015 at 4:29pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 19th, 2015 at 1:08am:
... quite good, but only with a keen weapon and only so long as throwers crit range with Keen remain hopelessly broken.


Another FYI/PSA - I tested a crafted Keen I shuriken and it doesn't stack with IC. The crafted shuri's crit range ended up (one less) than Snowstar so 13-20x2 (IMP CRIT/KEEN I+CAPSTONE+CC).

So really, it's the Keen I on the Shadow Star that is working uniquely.

Why did I test this?

Cause I'm a giver...

And I don't access to the pack that gives Shadow Star  Cry

This is on a level 21 drow monk.
« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:42pm by ChewyOoeyGoOey »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #196 - Jul 29th, 2015 at 5:36pm
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its only good on a swash or a 20 monk build. any other shuri build is better off with TF
  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #197 - Jul 29th, 2015 at 7:11pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jul 29th, 2015 at 5:36pm:
its only good on a swash or a 20 monk build. any other shuri build is better off with TF

Yep. The above was tested on my 21 monk thrower alt. I've parked him to farm Challenge mats.

Edit: I just logged to check and corrected the crit range and my toon level.
« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2015 at 9:43pm by ChewyOoeyGoOey »  
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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #198 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 10:20pm
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It's only named keen throwers afaik. So only shadowstar and min2 behave like this. Probably Coffin Nail as well, I'll test that next time I have an epic bard.
  

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Re: U25 Shuriken
Reply #199 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 11:06pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 10:20pm:
It's only named keen throwers afaik. So only shadowstar and min2 behave like this. Probably Coffin Nail as well, I'll test that next time I have an epic bard.


I believe tilomere on MB tested coffin nail as working. Any named item with keen works, which excludes loot gen and Cannith.
  
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