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harharharhar
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U28 Shuriken
Nov 14th, 2015 at 2:28am
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https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/463636-Some-New-Thrower-Builds?p=56613...

Fury Stars:
12 Ranger/6 Monk/2 Fighter - Human. Lammania Red Kobold kill time: ~71 seconds

Overview:
Everything changed with the new balance pass, and everything that's old is new again. This post lists my current build: centered Human Shuriken/Manyshot Bow hybrid, running in Fury of the Wild with 10k.This build uses Manyshot off timer, dual damage action boosts, and the new and improved 10K for huge bust damage in Fury of the Wild. As noted in Holymunchkin's thread, Adrenaline regen is incredible with IPS and 10k/Manyshot. Unlike that build and some others, mine makes liberal and constant use of Sniper Shot.

I really don't like Slayer arrow since they nerfed Manyshot. Without 4 guaranteed arrows, the average damage per Slayer/Adrenaline/Manyshot volley has really been reduced. Also, with Ranged Power, Sniper shot is now much more powerful, as base damage has increased greatly since the original Monkchers. This means a +2 Multi from Sniper is now 2/3rds affective as Slayer, but it's available every 6 seconds, instead of Slayers 20. You can use Sniper Shot 4 Times for every slayer arrow. The math works out like this:

At~117'ish RP (50 Wisdom during 10k) and 70 base damage, that's ~152base Damage.The +2 Crit multi from Sniper shot during Adren makes adds 304 base to the shot(152x2), + the x2 from Shuriken for 608 base damage before Adrenaline. Multiplied by 4 that's 2432 Damage.

Slayer adds 152+250x2 =804x4 for Adrenaline= 3216 a Shuriken.

But, In the 20 seconds between a slayer shot and it's cooldown, I can do 4 sniper/adrenaline shots, for 2432x4 Damage = 9728 damage. Now, you could calculate your damage more evenly in the AA/T5 Scenario by adding in 3 more adrenaline shuriken throws (5 Seconds cooldown on Adren means Slayer + 3 Adren throws/20 seconds) without slayer or sniper in the interim for another 152x4 = 608 x 3 = 1824 + 3216 = 5040. That's ~93%% increase in damage (9728 vs 5040). For me, this is a no brainer over T5 AA.

Just to address the Elemental arrow argument: 150'ish proc damage with Elemental arrow on every Shuriken is nice, but it does not make up the difference, and you can easily use AP to get T2 or even 3 of elemental arrows and still be using Sniper shot. I skip Elemental arrows all together because the Damage is already so high on Adrenaline + 10k/Manyshot + Sniper Shot/Head Shot/Aimed Shot/Merciful Shot + Dual Boosts

*These damage calcs are just being done assuming 1 Shuriken/Throw animation. It does not take into account extra dex procs, or Doubleshot, or Throwing speed. But seeing as these are relatively constant between builds, then proc rate of missiles * throw speed/sec can just be considered a constant coefficent for both scenarios of Slayer vs Sniper. You could take Slayer and Sniper, but you lose 5 damage, 20% AF damage on red names, 20% Doubleshot, which I'd rather not do. It is perfectly workable however.

Starting Stats (rough guidelines, depends on 28/32pt build):
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: Rest
Wis: 16
Cha: who cares

Dex, duh. Wisdom is for Ranged Power during 10k, and Int is for Know the Angles.

Levels Progression:

Selected Feat/(Auto Granted Feat)
Level 1 Ranger: PBS (Heroic), Dodge (Human)
Level 2 Monk:Shuriken Expertise (Monk)
Level 3 Monk: Quick Draw (Heroic), Zen Archery (Monk)
Level 4 Monk:
Level 5 Monk:
Level 6 Monk: Precision (Heroic)
Level 7 Monk: 10 Thousand Stars (Monk)
Level 8 Ranger: (Rapid Shot)
Level 9 Ranger: Deflect Arrows (Heroic)
Level 10 Range: Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 11 Ranger
Level 12 Ranger: Master of Forms (Heroic), Manyshot (Ranger)
Level 13 Ranger
Level 14 Ranger
Level 15 Ranger: Empower Heal (Heroic)
Level 16 Ranger
Level 17 Ranger: Improved Precise Shot (Ranger)
Level 18 Ranger: Grand Master of Forms (Heroic)
Level 19 Fighter: Improved Critical: Thrown
Level 20 Fighter: Improved Critical: Ranged

Epic Feats:
21: Overwhelming Crit
24: Completionist (Or Combar Archery or Weapon Focus Thrown/Ranged)
26: Toughness/Holy Strike/Improved Mage Armor
27: Blinding Speed (only source of 22% Enhancement bonus to Thrown Speed), or Epic Reflxes if you have XV Speed in gear.
28: Doubleshot

Enhancements: These are flexible, but here are some guidelines:
Human: 3AP Damage boost, +1 Dex
Ninja Spy: 11AP for Advanced Ninja Training, and Shadow Fade (this is a defensive choice, feel free to just go 6 for ANT)
Harper: 25AP, KtA, 6 RP, Construct FE, 4 Dex
DWS: 41AP, including 4th core for +1 Crit threat, RP Boost, all 5 T5 abilites, with giant as FE (feel free to change).

There are other possible setups, but this is my favorite. You could do less in Ninja Spy, and pump up AA for some proc damage from Elemental arrows, or take Ki Regen in Henshin with less points in Harper. Kensei has extra action boosts, though I twist extra for 9 which is generally enough. Long fights I can regen them with Draconic Vitality swap in on offhand.

Epic Destinies:
Fury of the Wild. I take 2 Tiers of Primal Scream, 3/3 Fast Healing (this plus Empowered Cure Mod and Cure Light is plenty, no need for Cocoon), Acute Instincts 3/3, Ward Against Weird 1/3, Sense Weakness 3/3, Gird Against Demons 2/2, Fury Eternal, Unbridled Fury.

You could still go beast mode in other Destiny's, but Red Named damage is so much better on this build that it's just no contest.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:17pm by harharharhar »  
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Tilo
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #1 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:13am
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I think you have too much crit range. 16 Adrenaline + 1 base + 1 IC Feat + 1 Ranger +2 Sniper Shot = 21, but game engine can't crit on 2, so only 18 is necessary. You get 18 already just with adrenaline and sniper shot, with a 0 crit range weapon with nothing else needed.

I think it would be worthwhile to replace 6 ranger and 2 fighter with more monk. Swapping 8 levels out will increase shots from 3 to 3.4 during 10k, which increases adrenaline damage x amount of adrenaline recharge by x^2 = 28% during 10k.

Action surge: dex for fighter action boost route?
« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2015 at 3:17pm by »  
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Forest
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #2 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:08pm
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I would have to side with Harhar here, the monk levels don't create enough of a benefit versus the ranger and fighter levels. I mean, in that case just play a monk.

I do agree with Harhar's view on the T5 decision, with one caveat, that being that in some cases for raids taking T5 electric arrows for the 20% damage vulnerability can pay huge dividends by jacking up the DPS of the whole team.

But except in those special circumstances I'm over slayer as well.
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #3 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:20pm
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The build sucks, kill yourself.
  
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Forest
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #4 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:29pm
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Oh are we talking about Manyshot?

How insensitive of us! that must be upsetting for someone like you who doesn't know how manyshot or ranged combat works.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:29pm by »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #5 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:31pm
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Change that rat in your avatar; it looks disgusting.
  
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Forest
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #6 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 6:37pm
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P4P still can't figure out Manyshot or ranged combat,  Cry
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #7 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:09pm
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Ah, so no witty comeback, guess facts hurt.  Smiley
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #8 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:09pm
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I was the best, ever; by a mile.
  
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Forest
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #9 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 7:21pm
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You didn't understand Manyshot, so nope, not even close.

So sad.  Cry
  
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harharharhar
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #10 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 10:46pm
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Quote:
I think you have too much crit range. 16 Adrenaline + 1 base + 1 IC Feat + 1 Ranger +2 Sniper Shot = 21, but game engine can't crit on 2, so only 18 is necessary. You get 18 already just with adrenaline and sniper shot, with a 0 crit range weapon with nothing else needed.

I think it would be worthwhile to replace 6 ranger and 2 fighter with more monk. Swapping 8 levels out will increase shots from 3 to 3.4 during 10k, which increases adrenaline damage x amount of adrenaline recharge by x^2 = 28% during 10k.

Action surge: dex for fighter action boost route?


You can only get 3 dex during AB's from that, but its totally workable if it's something someone wants to try. Compared to the extra 3 RP from harper, it might be a wash. I haven't done the math, and I really wish Turbine would put red named Kobolds on Live.


Like I said, AP's are totally move aroundable. You could also drop just the 2 fighter and go 12/8, but feats are tighter and I like the defense this build has. I have Tempest available for solo'ing EE's like ToEE to get Defelct Arrows every 2 Seconds, I have like 160 AC with basic self buffs, 27 Dodge, 25% incorp with plenty of Ki regen, 80 PRR and 50 MRR (Triple Epic/Iconic Completionist), and all saves well over 65, with Reflex being like 78 or something. If you really wanted to go nutto on Defense, like say for Reaper when it drops and it if it's really hard, you could swap in 2 Pally for more 8 more saves.

Also, I don't have to twist Cocoon, my Cure Mods hit for like 300+, and cure light is ~200 with Claw Set and Mysterious Cloak for Hamp. That could get jacked up a bit too if nesc through Shintao and Human.

I guess what I'm saying is, you might be able able to squeeze out a little more offense by sacraficing some Defense with this build, but I really like the 12/6/2 as it's a very versatile platform based on how you want to play and what you want to do. I don't recommend going under 12 Ranger because even though the burst damage of this build centers around Sniper Shot and Adrenaline, you still throw a TON of stars without Adrenaline, and having crit threat is important. Likewise with Manyshot, on between Adren/Sniper, you are still rotating through your other activated attacks, and it's more DPS to have Crit threat on your bow than not.

  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #11 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 10:47pm
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Also would like to mention that when you run out of Adrenalines (which I do, all the time) you still need to be useful until you proc some more, hence my goal of having IC Crit for both bow and shuri, and +1 crit from DWS on top of that.
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #12 - Nov 14th, 2015 at 10:53pm
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harharharhar wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 10:47pm:
Also would like to mention that when you run out of Adrenalines (which I do, all the time) you still need to be useful until you proc some more, hence my goal of having IC Crit for both bow and shuri, and +1 crit from DWS on top of that.


There's isn't enough cock in the world to satisfy your gay cravings: kill yourself.
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #13 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 12:53am
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[] wrote on Nov 14th, 2015 at 10:53pm:
There's isn't enough cock in the world to satisfy your gay cravings: kill yourself.



So P4P still can't understand Manyshot and ranged combat, so sad.  Cry
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #14 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 1:11pm
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Edited math in OP: I made a mistake and thought that Wisdom was providing 2x RP, but it's actually stated and providing 1x RP, so I've dropped the RP in the math down accordingly. SLayer gets a little better with less RP, but Sniper is still ~94% better than Slayer. Instead of estimating RP, I just used my actual value for my live capped main (67 RP standing in Fury, 117 with 10k @50 Wisdom).
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:44pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #15 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm
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One of my buddys was running something similar to this last night seemed to enjoy it quite a bit.

GxB Mechanic in FoTW still buried him and the rest of us in Kills. I Think this and several other builds are doing really well in trying to find the new ceiling with bow and throwers and push the envelope. But I think the fact is that the GxB ceiling is higher by Dev action (notice I didn't say Dev design).
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm by Grand »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #16 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:43pm
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Grand wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
One of my buddys


You don't have friends; casual gay sex parteners are NOT buddies, FYI.

Grand wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
was running something


Train on your ass; we know.

Grand wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
seemed to enjoy it quite a bit.


I bet, faggot!

  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #17 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:44pm
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Grand wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 2:28pm:
One of my buddys was running something similar to this last night seemed to enjoy it quite a bit.

GxB Mechanic in FoTW still buried him and the rest of us in Kills. I Think this and several other builds are doing really well in trying to find the new ceiling with bow and throwers and push the envelope. But I think the fact is that the GxB ceiling is higher by Dev action (notice I didn't say Dev design).


No one with a GXB on khyber can touch me, that I've come across. Open to all and any takers to try for science.

Not to be rude, but I think what you're experiencing is the difference between builds, and people playing builds. I've run against everyone person in every build (except Teth, haven't seen him in a long time) and no one is coming close. The only thing I haven't seen is a ddecent THF player recently to test against. But Warlocks, Xbows (great and repeating), pure Rangers, TWF Pallys/Rangers/Barbs etc.

Either I'm THAT MUCH better than everyone else, or this build is top DPS. Which it is, because no one with a great Xbow (That I know of) did a test on the red named Kobold in under 71 seconds, which a build very similar to this one did (12 Ranger/8 Monk). The very best melees weren't getting it done any faster than that either, again, to my knowledge.

This build is pushing the absolute upper limit of ranged DPS, again, to my knowledge. Until someone can show me a red named kobold test or similar that's at least 10-20% faster on average with a gxbow, I'm calling draw at best. The problem with Greatxbow builds is that they need 18-20 rogue levels, and then they can't have Sniper shot, which is GODLY with FoTW (which I'm taking back for Fury ED instead of flavor of the weak). Without Sniper or Slayer in FoTW, no ranged build will be better DPS than this one. If you put this build against an Xbow build and they're both in say DC or LD, then sure, it's possible the delta is much closer or even favoring a gxbow, though I doubt it.

I open to being wrong about this, but my play experience seems to confirm it, and no one has presented anything compelling to refute it.

I'm trying to figure out a Half Elf, dual boost, 6 Monk/12 Ranger/2x that would use AA through Helf for Capstone and Slayer, and still have enough AP to take Sniper shot. It leaves just enough AP for KtA in harper and  in Ninja Spy for ANT. This build is potentially higher damage than the one in the OP that is Human, just because slayer arrow gives that little tiny bump in DPS, and Elemental Arrows would be doing enough damage to maybe compete. But you lose Killer, Heavy Draw, Merciful Shot and Imp AF which I really don't like losing. As well as +1 Comp crit to all weapons from DWS core 4 (not enough AP), though you do gain a multiplier from AA which could make up for it since your slayer/manyshot/adren will be even bigger with the bow.

I guess that build would only need 6 ranger, which makes for some more interesting possibilities. Like maybe 8 Rogue levels, or fighter levels for RP feats, or more monk for Doubleshot during 10K. Similar to Tilo's idea above, but I just don't know if it's actually better in longer fights or when you're out of Adren's and waiting for regen to pop on a 20.

Hmmm
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:57pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #18 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:52pm
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harharharhar wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:44pm:
No one with a GXB on khyber can touch me, that I've come across. Open to all and any takers to try for science.


You're a joke, dude; settle down, skippy.
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #19 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 6:41pm
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harharharhar wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 5:44pm:
~stuff~


It may also reflect the more technical demands of your build, the need to time actions very closely and consistently for instance you can indeed get 3 sniper shots off in the time one slayer takes, but you have to be right on top of the timing and position to not begin the slide into 2 in twenty seconds, and so forth. 

So perhaps the people who I've played with have yet to master those intricacies.

I will say that the Mechanic we played with did it almost effortlessly, and he was the first to admit he built it purposefully as a easy button build. The really impressive part as a onlooker was that the build had his biggest hits always available  at the drop of the hat, there wasn't any timing issues just point and kill.

So two very different builds for sure. 
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2015 at 6:44pm by Grand »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #20 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 7:50pm
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Grand wrote on Nov 15th, 2015 at 6:41pm:
It may also reflect the more technical demands of your build


It's complete shit and he's acting like there's rocket surgery involved!?  LOL!
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #21 - Nov 15th, 2015 at 10:00pm
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Sniper shot is one of the easier abilities to manage IMO. 6 seconds is a pretty easy rhythm and if the mob you hit is still alive then the helpful bluff icon drops off at 4 seconds. Right as it drops off you have time for one other activated ability like leg shot or whatever and you know it's up.

I also passed up Merciful Shot for a long time because of the double restrictions, but that bluff icon can make it really easy to land.

SA is so fucking stupid I know pure ranger isn't going to keep up with a split, but damn, when I see SA start to roll from the Sniper Shot bluff I really start to wonder about Horizon Shot. Always being in ranged SA range is a dream for somebody as lazy as I am.
  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #22 - Nov 16th, 2015 at 6:36pm
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Oh, I see what is going on. In 1 minute of furyshot/all adrenaline burns, your build is optimal in 1 minute because you are using ~20 overloads in 1 minute, with a 4 minute remaining recharge on fury eternal and minute recharge for adrenalines.

That's why the crit is helping. Otherwise the doubleshot from more monk levels would easily overtake it due to squared nature of adrenaline recharge/damage.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2015 at 6:53pm by »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #23 - Nov 16th, 2015 at 8:20pm
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Oh, I see what is going on. In 1 minute of furyshot/all adrenaline burns, your build is optimal in 1 minute because you are using ~20 overloads in 1 minute, with a 4 minute remaining recharge on fury eternal and minute recharge for adrenalines.

That's why the crit is helping. Otherwise the doubleshot from more monk levels would easily overtake it due to squared nature of adrenaline recharge/damage.


huh?

If I understand you correctly then yes, real life playtesting both against the kobolds and long streaks of trash have made me a fan.

Again, I'm not saying a Slayer AA + Sniper Shot build isn't possible, or even a good build. But based on a sort of "total play" model I like to build with, the superior defensive trade-offs in many ways make this build more offensively powerful. I barely need to heal, and even in ToEE part 2 I take mobs in my face all the time and it's just not much of an issue (Dodged! Deflected! Dodged! Miss! Miss! Dodged!) means I spend less time healing from OP ranged mobs and more time button mashing active attacks.

This is sort of like my argument with perma tensers from way back in my early shuri build days that took T5 Arch Mage. This was before there were any ranged friendly trees besides AA. Tensers scrolls are short duration, and even with quickdraw equipped the scroll and going back to your weapons wastes a fair amount of DPS time in combat. Ranged trees have been improved so much however, you can't afford T5 AM for perma tensers with all the new and improved options (Mech, AA, DWS). So you have to scroll it, but you take a DPS hit from that because it's hard to always have it up. Mostly because if you zerg you're just always fighting mobs until a red named.

Although this thread just gave me the idea to maybe add Arty levels for longer buffs...might be better than Fighter.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2015 at 10:02pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: U28 Shuriken
Reply #24 - Nov 19th, 2015 at 9:50pm
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Hey Rebel scum,
My name is Bursk, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are rebellious, Luke Skywalker-following lawbreakers who spend every second of their day opposing the Galactic Empire. You are everything bad in the galaxy. Honestly, have any of you ever won a war? I mean, I guess it's fun blowing up the Death Star because of your own lack of power, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than jacking off to pictures of Aayla Secura.
Don't be a coward. Just hit me with your best blaster shot. I'm pretty much perfect. I was commander of leading snowtroopers into the caverns of Echo Base during the Battle of Hoth, and helped coordinate attacks with Darth Vader. What sports do you play, other than "losing to the Empire all the time"? I also get straight good evaluations, and I have a state-of-the-art blaster rifle (it just killed some Rebel scum, shit was SO blast). You are all rebels who should just give in to the Empire. Thanks for listening.
Pic Related: It's me and my blaster rifle
  
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