Bigjunk wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 12:03pm:


Of course I don't.  Does anyone here outside of about 2 people ever? 

What I meant, however was one shot blasts, not sustainable.  And I've seen wolves out DPS my ranger head to head on bosses on sustainable DPS.

DoRayEgon wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 12:23pm:


yeah, wolves are 11kish.

AtomicMew wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 7:51am:


I intentionally left out GS but forgot to count scion.

I'll concede that with everything stacked, wizard is doing more damage with ruins. The point where I disagree is still going to be the apparent lack of logic in counting MoK as a permanent buff for the purpose of calculations.

If MoK is fully stacked, a wizard split is doing more damage with ruins than a pure warlock. Without MoK, you have slightly lower spell power and 50% lower crit damage boost than a warlock, in which case warlock is dealing more damage.

I started doing the math to figure out exactly how many stacks a wizard needs to be doing more damage than a warlock, but it's complicated by a number of factors including the better crit chance of wiz and the better boss dps that warlock does in between ruins.

Under some conditions, a wizard will do more boss dps than a warlock. How much more depends on a variety of factors that are difficult to test because they're different in different quests and using different playstyles. However, with warlock dealing higher base DPS and being much better suited for wiping out the packs of mobs that make up the majority of new content, I remain convinced that warlock is the better choice if you're interested in playing a character that can rush through content.

i think warlock dps is on the low end of top tier.
if you think they're op then you're not playing building your shiradi well.
they excel at some of the lower lvl content where mobs have low hp....but you cant pop into le shroud and just drop a couple bursts and the mob dies. but just leading the kill count in the lod chain doesnt mean its op dps.
i enjoyed my warlock lives and if you want to say they're easy to make do solid dps or easy on sp then fine. but between other shiradi builds, trees, wolves, rangers, acrobats, mechanics, chuckers being such high dps i dont see how warlocks could be called op in end game at all.

in LE content any build that can keep max single target dps on multiple targets (chain shiradi, tree, ranger, wolf, ips mechanic or chucker) is better. with the caveat that a hurler in shroud is very useful.
in EE doj...see above.
in EE mod one mostly doesnt want to wipe the trash quickly.
thats the end game raid content for the last two years.

killing squishy low lvl trash slightly faster than some other builds doesnt = op to me and i cant imagine that being the consensus view of end game players.
last i looked none of the solo speed records were held by warlocks. im not arguing they are underpowered or awful dps. but when so many builds do more dps i cant imagine perceiving warlock as overpowered.

I was calculating out that a wolf would have to be 12-13 rogue/5 ranger/2 druid to hit 10-11k with DoD dual boosted in LD, with ~8k sustained.

Tree and Warlock are far above everything else in the game in terms of actual dungeon clearing. I think tree ends up on top of everything when all is said and done for most dungeon clear times.

Warlock or THF/TWF melee can be faster than tree if you are limited to one spawn at a time like in DA. Tree rules all if you are allowed to pull 20+ mobs at once. With this lag though, I'm not sure if tree is still as good as I remember.

I don't understand all this 'shiradi wizard' talk, like they are anywhere near top tier dps or more efficient clearing build....these days it would be tough to even consider them in a top 5 build list, however you want to slice it (trash clearing, single target red dps, whatever...)

The same applies to any build which relies on RNG or long cooldown abilities. Ruin/Greater Ruin does not a build make.

Brodhi wrote on Apr 10^th, 2016 at 3:54pm:


Casters and in particular shiradi gained by far the most in U29:

Large amount of spellpower (~200-300)
Large amount of crit multiplier (~60-110%)
Arcane pulse/greater ruin (arcane pulse alone is near 1K DPS fully stacked)
legendary vacuum - full vulnerability procs (other builds at least had thunderforged)


If it was competitive before level 30 cap, it's at least more competitive now.

you said warlocks are" unquestionably the most powerful class."
well im questioning the truth of that statement and the sanity of the person making it.

people are interested in different aspects of the game. your personality seems uniquely suited for soloing.

but soloing low lvl content at average speed doesnt seem to make a class overpowered to me. or are you saying that youre such a bad player that the class must be over powered for you to achieve an average time?

Did you misunderstand me when I said that the times I posted are more or less my average times?

They're MY average times. I'm sure people (including myself) can beat them, but they're significantly faster than the average players' average times.

AtomicMew wrote on Apr 10^th, 2016 at 7:23pm:


I think you're misunderstanding what my point was.

Some guy brought up the outdated "speed run" records and didn't believe me when I said that they were outdated and easily beatable, so I provided proof that he shouldn't have needed. Simple as that.

AtomicMew wrote on Apr 10^th, 2016 at 9:18pm:


Yes, which is why I've been referring to them as "outdated" almost every time I mention them. You're right, beating those records isn't at all indicative of how good a build is now, and the only reason they were being discussed at all was because he brought them up as "proof" that warlock isn't a good class for completing quests quickly.

AtomicMew wrote on Apr 10^th, 2016 at 11:10pm:


Warlocks' relative power increase came with U29, at which point it became more relatively powerful at cap than it had been even before the nerfs. The speed records are mostly old since a lot of folks never really knew or cared about the thread or the purported records it contained.

It's important to remember that speed runs, while impressive, don't necessarily reflect the power of a given class in any meaningful way. Realistically, people don't always get keys in the first room they go into, they don't get the super buff every time they drink tea, they don't always use buff pots, and they don't get lucky with crits every time they run every quest. The statistic that we would need to accurately measure relative speeds of classes at completing content would be the average solo completion times for each quest done by each class, and that's something that we obviously don't and can't have access to. Even if we had that statistic, it wouldn't tell us much because people have different styles of play and different levels of skill, and styles of play/skill levels are not evenly distributed across all the classes.

Everyone is going to have different experiences playing different classes, everyone is going to have a different favorite class/style of play, and everyone is going to disagree about which class is the overall best/worst.

Nobody is going to be able to conclusively prove anything other than their personal preferences, and given that fact, I think this discussion has run its course.