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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid) (Read 70411 times)
Dr Faustus
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #50 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:20pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:09pm:
This is an interesting 3rd path, and is arguably the most conservative (least damage but most consistently applied).


Not a 3rd path... we were explicitly talking about scion feats. There is no scion feat which does force damage. He is talking about imbues.

Between this and your bad math in the earlier post, I'm convinced you have no idea what you are talking about.
  
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harharharhar
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #51 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:20pm
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Dr Faustus wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:18pm:
Math is wrong.

180 RP * 1.5 = 270 effective ranged power = 3.7 multiplier -> 50 * 3.7 = 185

500 spellpower -> 6 multiplier -> 20*6 = 120

500 spellpower is VERY generous....requires deep gear investment as well.

Sneak attack damage is better by miles - energy resistance / immunity on nearly every key mob in endgame.


No it isnt because you never get it full time.

Also, 500 Spell power is not particularly hard to achieve at all.

Good math catches I'm at work.
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:21pm by harharharhar »  
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harharharhar
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #52 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:24pm
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Dr Faustus wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:20pm:
Not a 3rd path... we were explicitly talking about scion feats. There is no scion feat which does force damage. He is talking about imbues.

Between this and your bad math in the earlier post, I'm convinced you have no idea what you are talking about.


I know you're new here but that doesn't make your shitty rip off build special. Do a little homework.

I know he is talking about imbues, when I say third path I mean not taking an imbue to match your legendary feat to double up on Spell power maximization. Like Scion of Air + Electric Imbue.

Just go slow, and try to follow along.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #53 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:26pm
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By the way you're super uber at copying builds tho and rehashing old ideas like they're yours.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #54 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:31pm
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The most important point of course I'll just remind our readers of:

The original point of this entire build concept is that utilizing manyshot/10k with adrenaline in Fury allows you to do HUGE burst damage a la the monkcher, but with Shuriken proc speed regen of adrenalines.

Your bonus proc damage of SA vs a Scion spell type damage is....drum roll please
NOT FUCKING RELEVANT.


15-25K adrenaline/sniper shot animations are relevant. Your occasionally larger SA damage number versus a smaller but more consistent lightning damage number outside of mega giant crit burst damage just doesn't matter.

You and everyone else would know that if they actually played these builds at end game all the time and tried different variations. Or like, tried to solo LE tempest spine or LH shroud like I used to.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #55 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:31pm
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Digimonk wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:57pm:
Personally, I prefer using Force Imbues and Epic Spellpower: Force for the lvl 26 feat.  20 Force spellpower is roughly 7 extra damage per hit with T2-T5 Elemental damage.

Holy Strike averages out to something like 1-2 damage per hit with a 5% Vorpal rate and only works on Evil mobs so more realistically, it's probably worth 1 damage per hit. 

Lots of stuff is resistant, immune, or even healed by Acid and Electricity.  Golems are about the only mobs resistant or immune to Force damage.  I think Force is far more reliable and consistent damage over the long haul.

Use the Search & Rescue cloak for Force spell power and +4 quality Wis bonus.


Might be worth checking out - I've got some testing I need to do in regards before I'm sold. At the moment, any mob that's straight up immune to electric, I swap to a different imbue (paralyzing, smiting, or terror). This really only happens once in shroud, smiting for the portals which depending on what party debuffs you have - you'll probably need anyways.

If i can get a nice kinetic lore ring or if new gear lets me craft spell lore - I'll probably swap (4 quality wis is nice).

As for using spellpower feat in lvl 26 slot, definitely something to consider. 7 damage a star is attractive. I'll probably swap to this - thanks.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #56 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:35pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:26pm:
By the way you're super uber at copying builds tho and rehashing old ideas like they're yours.


Got to say this is hilarious, I explicitly stated that this wasn't my build nor my build idea.... Read the very first line of the original post.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #57 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:41pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:31pm:
The most important point of course I'll
Your bonus proc damage of SA vs a Scion spell type damage is....drum roll please
NOT FUCKING RELEVANT.


15-25K adrenaline/sniper shot animations are relevant. Your occasionally larger SA damage number versus a smaller but more consistent lightning damage number outside of mega giant crit burst damage just doesn't matter.


You were the one to originally bring up the difference, asserting that scion of air/earth (matching your imbue) was better...?

Also, you should keep in mind that adrenaline amps up sneak attack damage - > adding to those nice adrenaline/sniper shot combos. In total, I've seen quite a few [30,40)k combos when you factor in sneak attack damage though the average does tend to be in the 20ks.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #58 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:43pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:26pm:
Yes.


No. The actual issue for a sneak attack focused build is sneak attack immunity. Which can only be bypassed by Assassin's Trick, Wrack Construct, or Shadow Mastery (core 6 Shadowdancer). That's why my chucker is currently in Shadowdancer.

Good point, that's a major thing I forgot. Thanks for not being a douche about pointing it out.

harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:01pm:
HOW DOES YOUR BUILD GET ASSASSINS TRICK? OR MARK OF THE HUNTED?

Caps locks is not cruise control for cool.
harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:18pm:
Did you forget the part where lvl 30 feats dont just provide elemental power but a separate scaling proc? You sort of leave that out when you mention Hide/3 * RP.

If your Hide is 150 Perma, that's 50dmg * (180RP*1.5) = 135dmg (very good, when it procs).  2d20 from Scion of Air * 500 Spell power is 100 avg damage, and you dont have a range or Sneak Attack requirement on it. The damage portion is basically a wash if youve slotted deception gear and have LOTS of Armor piercing, and extended SA range. Even then calling it a wash is being a little generous but whatever. And that's just on stuff that has fort, not SA attack immune.

You might be on crack. 

You might be getting your burns from the 90's.
harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:18pm:
I'm not advocating against SA. I made the original SA thrower build (Dark Stars) like 2 years ago. BEFORE scalling and RP. But SA never applied 100% of the time, and with range issue, ON A THROWER, its far less than 100% of the time. I know this from years of playing throwers. SA is awesome on thrower, but it should be your tertiary concern AFTER

1. Throw Speed (Easy to max since mostly feats + haste, but still number 1)
2. Missile Proc Rate (SE/ANT/Doubleshot)
3. Physical Damage
4. Elemental/Alignment proc dmg/missile
5. SA Damage

*If you dont want to be a piece of shit noob who can only kill trash.

Decent points. I disagree with parts of what you say, but it occurs to me that debating you is likely pointless as I'll just run up against the wall of your pretension (almost like a... firewall...). "I made the original!" do you even hear yourself? And your conviction that you are king of the throwers. Everybody knows you prefer catching anyway.

As always you can be counted on to be a douche, Sallysobsob.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #59 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:48pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:18pm:
Did you forget the part where lvl 30 feats dont just provide elemental power but a separate scaling proc? You sort of leave that out when you mention Hide/3 * RP.

If your Hide is 150 Perma, that's 50dmg * (180RP*1.5) = 135dmg (very good, when it procs).  2d20 from Scion of Air * 500 Spell power is 100 avg damage, and you dont have a range or Sneak Attack requirement on it. The damage portion is basically a wash if youve slotted deception gear and have LOTS of Armor piercing, and extended SA range. Even then calling it a wash is being a little generous but whatever. And that's just on stuff that has fort, not SA attack immune.

You might be on crack.

I'm not advocating against SA. I made the original SA thrower build (Dark Stars) like 2 years ago. BEFORE scalling and RP. But SA never applied 100% of the time, and with range issue, ON A THROWER, its far less than 100% of the time. I know this from years of playing throwers. SA is awesome on thrower, but it should be your tertiary concern AFTER

1. Throw Speed (Easy to max since mostly feats + haste, but still number 1)
2. Missile Proc Rate (SE/ANT/Doubleshot)
3. Physical Damage
4. Elemental/Alignment proc dmg/missile
5. SA Damage

*If you dont want to be a piece of shit noob who can only kill trash.

Yet again you're insulting in a post that doesn't need to be.  There's a few things you're neglecting in your holier than thou post.

There are likely more electric/acid resistant/immune/healed mobs in current end-game content than there are SA immmune mobs.  Additionally, raid bosses are the only mobs where SA immunity will really matter and it is likely you will have a rogue with Assassin's Trick in the party in those scenarios.

Adrenaline/fury also affects SA damage.  It does not affect elemental imbues.  It's not uncommon to see 1.5k+ SA numbers on adrenaline shots.

Since your entire platform is "trash killing is for noobz, real builds are for red-named DPS!!11!!!", this seems like a pretty big contradiction on your part.
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:54pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #60 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:49pm
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In Jake's defense the OP did name it 'Furicannon' and that is the really obvious rip-off of 'shuricannon' which was Jakelala's.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #61 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:52pm
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[] wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:50am:
A tropical, Caribbean island is not "a fantasy world" as you so ineloquently put it.



HA HA! remember the whole "I travel the Caribbean islands and I'm currently at my house in the Bahamas' spiel?  I love seeing Puerto Potty re-qualify himself like this, gives me the giggles.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #62 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:52pm
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Quote:
In Jake's defense the OP did name it 'Furicannon' and that is the really obvious rip-off of 'shuricannon' which was Jakelala's.   

Wasn't Firewall the one who coined the "shuricannon" title back in 2013?
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #63 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 4:23pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:24pm:
I know he is talking about imbues, when I say third path I mean not taking an imbue to match your legendary feat to double up on Spell power maximization. Like Scion of Air + Electric Imbue.

To clarify, after lots of in-game testing, I took Scion of Arborea for the following reasons:
  • 20 ranged power - boosts base and SA damage which in turns scales with adrenaline shots
  • 20 force power - boosts Force imbues (consistent +7 dmg per hit)
  • +2 weapon enhancement bonus - more base damage for adrenaline shots

Scion of Arborea is basically a stacking ToEE set bonus and has tons of synergy with a shuri build that utilitizes elemental imbues from the AA tree.

If you are not going to run with Force imbues pretty much full time, I think you'd be better off forgoing elemental imbues altogether.  Scion of the Ethereral Plane would likely be my 2nd place choice depending on actual hide skill.  Go all in on hide, ranged power and SA damage with Scion of the Ethereal and use the various non-elemental imbues (terror, paralyzing, banishing, and smiting) as content dictates.

Given the end-game mobs' resists, choosing electricity or acid imbues plus the corresponding epic spell power and Scion feats would be my third choice.


Edit:  http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Earthen_Mantle was a game changer for using Force imbues on a non-runearm build.  Prior to that, the best you could do for Force spellpower without gimping your gear in other areas was an augment or Cannoneer's Goggles.
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2016 at 4:59pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #64 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 5:13pm
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Dr Faustus wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:01pm:
25% precision
5% ship
15% grim
21% armor piercing
25% assassins trick
25% mark of the hunted
-------------------
106% fortification and sneak bypass w/ 1 ranger and 1 mechanic in party (add on 50% on constructs from wracking shot and smiting arrows)

Plenty of fort/sneak bypass when raiding


http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1464380712/37#37

harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:03pm:
yes, from the guy who always ran a 20 Monk in Shiradi,


Me? I did a 20 monk in shiradi for like a week maybe. Last night was pure rogue assassin, pure pally, pure tempest ranger, pure warlock, and 18/2 mech. I've never "always" run anything.

harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:03pm:
I'm guessing your red named DPS leaves a great deal to be desired.


Wrong again. I pull aggro off the guy that copied your build.

harharharhar wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 2:03pm:
Do you have any red name kobold or other red named DPS tests to show for it?


I'm working on other projects now. There are other ways to play you know.

gibbon wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
Good point, that's a major thing I forgot. Thanks for not being a douche about pointing it out.


No problem.
  

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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #65 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 5:26pm
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gibbon wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
Good point, that's a major thing I forgot. Thanks for not being a douche about pointing it out.

We need to give credit to NotHar before being a build douche, since it was his original build.
  

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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #66 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 8:31pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 5:13pm:
I'm working on other projects now. There are other ways to play you know.

people lie, numbers won't!
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #67 - Jun 29th, 2016 at 11:49pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 27th, 2016 at 1:55pm:
Epic Destiny is identical
Twists idenitcal
Feats are identical
AP's are identical (I've always given 2 paths: elf AA or DWS path, but AA previously was slower to kill red names as of update 29/30ish)
Haper+6AP in Ninja Spy all totally the same
Equipment is identical except I quit and you've added in some leg GS which wasn't out the last time I posted a build with excecption of Enchant focused Terror stars build using Terror arrow

Only other diff is updates, not any actual substantial changes or improvements.

Many lolz being had, youre welcome for all the of the years of effort. This is like when libertarians say they don't want to pay taxes but they made their fortunes on roads built by tax dollars, and protected by government funded security and a stable government organized financial system.


This is way off topic but are you playing Warhammer Online?
  

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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #68 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:02am
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Quote:
HA HA! remember the whole "I travel the Caribbean islands and I'm currently at my house in the Bahamas' spiel?  I love seeing Puerto Potty re-qualify himself like this, gives me the giggles.   


The only home I own, not a bank, is in Florida.  I may buy one here on the island; time will tell.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #69 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 11:24am
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Rubbinns wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 8:31pm:
people lie, numbers won't!


Last time I tried to test shit on Lamannia, transfer was broken and the gear I needed wasn't available.

The time before that, transfer was broken and the level up NPC was broken.

The three times Lam was open before that, they were 2 day windows and I had to work 24 hours those weekends.

Before that, dojo kobolds did not exist.

Besides, it should be pretty obvious that I'm not a one toon, one playstyle kind of guy.
« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2016 at 11:27am by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #70 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 12:04pm
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What I've opted to do nowadays is (since you are right, lamm is hardly ever up):

run an LE shroud (less laggy conditions obviously better): record a video.

Sum damage on target, divide by time (high framerate recording).

Do this for all 15 portals (assuming you aren't on portal keeper duty) - average between them.

Do this for harry, kittykat, and book.

Real word dps numbers (unfortunately they will fluctuate a lot between runs depending on lag on ranged builds like this).

The next best alternative to this is bruntsmash (kobold is the least real world of the 3 - though still relevant).

Imo kobold dps numbers are only relevant for ordering builds not providing a numeric value to your dps. I'd be willing to bet that higher kobold dps numbers correlates well to higher real world dps....but there's still a scaling factor for real world issues (running out of adrenaline, running out of blitz, lag, healing, etc etc).
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #71 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:41pm
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Dr Faustus wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 12:04pm:
What I've opted to do nowadays is (since you are right, lamm is hardly ever up):

run an LE shroud (less laggy conditions obviously better): record a video.

Sum damage on target, divide by time (high framerate recording).

Do this for all 15 portals (assuming you aren't on portal keeper duty) - average between them.

Do this for harry, kittykat, and book.

Real word dps numbers (unfortunately they will fluctuate a lot between runs depending on lag on ranged builds like this).

The next best alternative to this is bruntsmash (kobold is the least real world of the 3 - though still relevant).

Imo kobold dps numbers are only relevant for ordering builds not providing a numeric value to your dps. I'd be willing to bet that higher kobold dps numbers correlates well to higher real world dps....but there's still a scaling factor for real world issues (running out of adrenaline, running out of blitz, lag, healing, etc etc).


You are right, this is true. Red named kobold tests largely eliminate the skill gap between players and give a pretty pure, raw DPS number. It's also why burst is immportant in my mind for real world game, because the longer you fight something, at least in some cases, the more time you have to get killed. 

If you suck at this game, your build doesn't matter that much. Your delta between a real world test like LE Tempest or Bruntsmash and your red named kobold test would be far greater. Kobold tests unfairly favor SA for instance, since you're always in range in that little room.

Conversely, if you're really good at this game, build can matter *less*. Though there seems to be a pretty tight correlation between being good at this game and running an optimized build so it's sort of moot.



  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #72 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:42pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 5:13pm:
Me? I did a 20 monk in shiradi for like a week maybe. Last night was pure rogue assassin, pure pally, pure tempest ranger, pure warlock, and 18/2 mech. I've never "always" run anything.



you posted multiple lvl 20 pure monk throwers and updated them for game updates. I was and still mostly am convinced that you are Firewall on the DDO servers.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #73 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:43pm
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Sailias wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 11:49pm:
This is way off topic but are you playing Warhammer Online?


No. I just picked up the starter set for Age of Sigmar though. I mostly prefer the painting part though if I ever finish my armies I will actually play table top with some friends.
  
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Re: Furicannon Build (Thrower/Bow hybrid)
Reply #74 - Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:44pm
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Digimonk wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 4:23pm:
To clarify, after lots of in-game testing, I took Scion of Arborea for the following reasons:
  • 20 ranged power - boosts base and SA damage which in turns scales with adrenaline shots
  • 20 force power - boosts Force imbues (consistent +7 dmg per hit)
  • +2 weapon enhancement bonus - more base damage for adrenaline shots

Scion of Arborea is basically a stacking ToEE set bonus and has tons of synergy with a shuri build that utilitizes elemental imbues from the AA tree.

If you are not going to run with Force imbues pretty much full time, I think you'd be better off forgoing elemental imbues altogether.  Scion of the Ethereral Plane would likely be my 2nd place choice depending on actual hide skill.  Go all in on hide, ranged power and SA damage with Scion of the Ethereal and use the various non-elemental imbues (terror, paralyzing, banishing, and smiting) as content dictates.

Given the end-game mobs' resists, choosing electricity or acid imbues plus the corresponding epic spell power and Scion feats would be my third choice.


Edit:  http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Earthen_Mantle was a game changer for using Force imbues on a non-runearm build.  Prior to that, the best you could do for Force spellpower without gimping your gear in other areas was an augment or Cannoneer's Goggles.


These are all good points, and with good Force Spellpower in an off slot now available since I quit playing, I agree with you.
  
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