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Hot Topic (More than 35 Replies) Another terrible design decision? (Read 24095 times)
Bushin
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Another terrible design decision?
Mar 20th, 2017 at 1:54pm
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So this has been bugging me for a while but I'm curious what other people think of this. We got reaper mode last update. Some people like it, some people hate it. What I really don't get though is ghost touch... or more specifically the implementation of incorporeal reapers with the current random loot.

So as most of you know we had the great ghostbaning of loot a while back. Instead of the trusty old ghost touch we got tons of ghost touch items that also had bane damage against undead on 'em. Pretty neat stuff for newer players wanting to, for example, run necro 2.

Since the newest lootgen overhaul a bunch of effects just aren't on random loot anymore. One of these is ghost touch (or the newer ghost bane for that matter). The only way to obtain ghost touch in the current game is:
1) Crafting a ghost touch shard.... the fucking highest bound shard in the game at level 225 (also requiring stone fetishes which are one of the worst farmable collectibles)
2) Buying them off the auction house/shard exchange. Good luck finding them though.
3) Getting certain named items with an incorporeal bypass effect on them. This gets relatively easy starting at level 15 with the planar compass trinket
4) Slotting a ruby of ghostbane that can only be gotten from an event that ended roughly a month before we got reaper and is quite a while away.

Now why is the absense of ghost touch items a problem for (primarily low level) reaper mode? Because people that don't have access to any of the above options will roll a 50% (i do feel it's more like 75%) miss chance against the only real threat in reaper mode.

This makes it sort of a gear check/luck based thing wether your low level character can kill that 2-3 shotting reaper or if you miss 8 attacks in a row.

Are other people also bothered by the design decision to give reapers incorporeality or am i alone in this?

TL:DR Giving reapers incorporeality is retarded with the current random lootgen.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #1 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 2:04pm
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Challenge is only for melees.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #2 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 2:39pm
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I think it's fine.  They took an existing mechanic and gave it to a tougher mob to make them even more challenging.  That is good design. 

If they take away incorporeality, they will quintuple the HP...
  
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Bushin
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #3 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 2:55pm
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no. wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 2:39pm:
I think it's fine.  They took an existing mechanic and gave it to a tougher mob to make them even more challenging.  That is good design. 

If they take away incorporeality, they will quintuple the HP...


I don't have a problem with incorporeality per se. I like a game that expects you to be prepared for different situations. That is (in my opinion) good game design. What I do have a problem with is a game that expects you to be prepared for a situation for which it has not supplied you the tools. The fact that this applies only to melees (and to a lesser extent ranged chars i suppose) makes this an even weirder design choice as not every class even has to use these tools.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #4 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:14pm
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Bushin wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 2:55pm:
I don't have a problem with incorporeality per se. I like a game that expects you to be prepared for different situations. That is (in my opinion) good game design. What I do have a problem with is a game that expects you to be prepared for a situation for which it has not supplied you the tools. The fact that this applies only to melees (and to a lesser extent ranged chars i suppose) makes this an even weirder design choice as not every class even has to use these tools.


I disagree. The game  does offer solutions, you listed several in the OP.  This is Reaper - a difficulty above Elite.  I don't think it's the devs job to prepare a new player for Reaper on their first life.  Anyone with a 20+ toon can get weaponry to circumvent this mechanic.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #5 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:21pm
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Ghostbane augments have been duped a plenty.

Find someone willing to sell/trade, the end.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:28pm
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no. wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:14pm:
I disagree. The game  does offer solutions, you listed several in the OP.  This is Reaper - a difficulty above Elite.  I don't think it's the devs job to prepare a new player for Reaper on their first life.  Anyone with a 20+ toon can get weaponry to circumvent this mechanic.


I agree. The game does make it somewhat difficult for lower-level chars at this point(even with a dozen past lives you MIGHT have a little trouble scraping together an appropriate ghost-touching weapon in the lvl 4-5 range).

But, then, those levels go by so fast, why are you even doing reaper on them?

I feel like its a solid design choice, brand new players aren't going to be running reaper, experienced vets are going to be crafting specialty answers to rise to the challenge.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #7 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:56pm
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There is a definite lack of low level ghost touch, which is bad for new players.  Catacombs offers the possibility of one on end reward, but is P2P and has a couple wraiths in the chain (I feel like this is similar to using a word in that word's definition. Ghost Touch should be available from a place before you get to Catacombs. Though I can see from a lore standpoint why they may not want that.)

They should change the end rewards on Necromancer's Doom on Korthos to a small list of Ghost Touch weapons.  Kind of like the Collaborator end reward.  Undead themed, low level, new friendly, not needed in the quest in which you earn the reward.  Win/win.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #8 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 4:19pm
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Meh.  Run Catacombes.  Get a Blade of Inquisition.  ML 2.  You are set.  Be prepared, otherwise, try a lower difficulty.  Reaper is SUPPOSED TO BE A CHALLENGE.  It doesn't need to be accessible to all.  Nuff said.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #9 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 4:22pm
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I think everbright is fucked up now too.. it was pretty low lvl to craft and cheap in mats to make it.

Now... expensive as fuck. Pretty High lvl to make it bound. And fucked to lvl unbound at lvl 400.

Why the fuck they do that? Those weapons used to be pretty common. Now youll never see them in the ah.  It would be nice to either see them back in the loot tables instead of some other garbage they have and/or they should lower the levels to make them by at least half. And use a small amount of old mats to make them instead of the shit way they have it now.

Oh and on the subject.. why is making true seeing so expensive?
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #10 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 5:48pm
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I don't GAF aboiut the "challenge". Reapers are now the most common, and therefore the most boring mob in the game.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #11 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 5:48pm
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Skrilla wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 4:22pm:
Oh and on the subject.. why is making true seeing so expensive?


Once you make it, you'll see that it really wasn't all that expensive...
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #12 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 9:07pm
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Bushin wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 1:54pm:
1) Crafting a ghost touch shard.... the fucking highest bound shard in the game at level 225 (also requiring stone fetishes which are one of the worst farmable collectibles)

Oh really?



Have you tried a lower difficulty?

From the Wiki even:
Quote:
Bypassing the incorporeal miss chance
Ghost Touch and Ghostbane weapons bypass the Incorporeal penalty.
Paladins can take the Slayer of Evil II enhancement, which provides Ghost Touch for all weapons.
Wizards can take the Shroud of the Wraith enhancement, which provides Ghost Touch for all weapons.
Players can wear an Ethereal or Ghostly item to have any of their weapons defeat Incorporeal.
Ethereal items
Ghostly items
Piercing Clarity - tier 4 ability of Grandmaster of Flowers
Named augment: Ruby of Ghostbane


I mean holy hell, how much easier do you want it to be?  I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy until the devs show up in-game with god-mode on and kill the mobs for you.
« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2017 at 9:15pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #13 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 4:05am
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 9:07pm:
Oh really?

http://i.imgur.com/bL9JERi.png

Have you tried a lower difficulty?

From the Wiki even:

I mean holy hell, how much easier do you want it to be?  I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy until the devs show up in-game with god-mode on and kill the mobs for you.


First off, I'm not saying incoorporality cannot be overcome or even that I have trouble overcoming it. I just said that the lack of incoorporality bypass in LOW LEVEL content bothers me FROM A DESIGN STANDPOINT since they've made another difficulty mode specific mob that uses incoorporality. The items with ghostly or ethereal on them are mid level at best.

But I guess my main problem with this system is, again, that it tries to impose an element of difficulty specifically to certain classes that only really causes problems to people that haven't played too long.

Personally I have plenty of +1 ghost touch of pure good old CC melee items, i don't even notice. Anything not swinging a weapon, ditto. So the only people really impacted by this are what? I'd say newer players. And as some people have stated that might be by design because reaper is supposed to be the toughest of the toughest (that worked out well....) but then those same players that difficulty is aimed at can just roll up a caster/lock and even they won't notice the "challenge".

I might be alone in having this gripe with the design of reaper mode and that's perfectly okay. I didn't come here to have my own opinion validated I came here to hear yours (which apparantly is only "lol git gud scrub") very insightfull.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #14 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:07am
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I agree with you, toons doing physical damage are at a disadvantage in low level quests. 
all they would need to do to level the playing field would be to drop more random items bypassing incorp or have a new vendor selling ghostbane augments. 
it was my reason for running as a warlock again.  just keeps it simple and have less inventory management.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #15 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:51am
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Agreed. You should have done this thread on mobos.

But just imagine the number of SSG paladins there, if even on the Vault you are getting a number of them...

Also it's fucking retarded that the reapers slow attack seed and have PRR but don't have anything to fuck casters and don't have MRR.

Ghost touch being required as a go to weapon is just fucking retarded game desing.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #16 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 9:18am
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Vaultaccount wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:51am:
Agreed. You should have done this thread on mobos.

But just imagine the number of SSG paladins there, if even on the Vault you are getting a number of them...

Also it's fucking retarded that the reapers slow attack seed and have PRR but don't have anything to fuck casters and don't have MRR.

Ghost touch being required as a go to weapon is just fucking retarded game desing.


The correct fix would be to have the reapers also slow movement speed of the players while having very fast movement speeds themselves to limit the kiting ability as well as giving all of them MRR and one of the 4 a beholder style anti-magic effect.  Also, alter their AI/threat table to show a strong preference to ranged/spell damage over melee damage. 

The reaper feature set is more limiting on melees than ranged/casters.  The solution is to make them more limiting to ranged/casters.   Not less limiting to melees.  Even up the difficulty by raising the bar, not lowering it.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #17 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:45pm
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Asheras wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 9:18am:
The correct fix would be to have the reapers offer some goddamn variety.

They could switch from annoying mob design to annoying mob design. First reaper is a wraith, next is a scorpion, etc. ...

Slowing player movement speed and bloating reaper hp (via dmg reduction) is also boring as fuck. So of course yes, more of that  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #18 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 10:01pm
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Champion Reapers.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #19 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:22pm
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Revaulting wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:45pm:
They could switch from annoying mob design to annoying mob design. First reaper is a wraith, next is a scorpion, etc. ...


Chainging from a wraith to a scorpion doesn't change the fact that the reaper has PRR and no MRR and hits like a triuck.  Because casters can kite and don't do physical damage.  Unless you make the reapers limiting kiting (to put casters in some actual peril) and reduce their damage similar to melee damage reduction that already exists, then you haven't solved a damn thing by changing the mob from a wraith to a scorpion to a spider to a troll.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #20 - Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:32pm
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Bushin wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 4:05am:
I might be alone in having this gripe with the design of reaper mode and that's perfectly okay. I didn't come here to have my own opinion validated I came here to hear yours (which apparantly is only "lol git gud scrub") very insightfull.

While it may be a subtle difference, I didn't necessarily say you should get good.  I don't know you or how you play.  For all I know, you might be the top player on your server.

My point was more, "Of all the things to bitch about in DDO, you chose this?"  Seems kind of minor compared to all the truly retarded design decisions and bugs in the game.  There are plenty of work-arounds for this and as someone who has run multiple melee lives, incorporeal hasn't been a concern since my first life. 

The only reason it was a thing on my first life was just because I knew jack shit about DDO overall and had no idea what gear to look for or how to do a proper build.  So even on the first life, the problem wasn't really incorporeal bypass weapons, it was just a lack of game knowledge.

Personally, I think it's kind of cool that you have to gather and carry various scenario specific pieces of gear rather than just a one-size fits all set.
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017 at 12:02am by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #21 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:27am
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:32pm:
While it may be a subtle difference, I didn't necessarily say you should get good.  I don't know you or how you play.  For all I know, you might be the top player on your server.

My point was more, "Of all the things to bitch about in DDO, you chose this?"  Seems kind of minor compared to all the truly retarded design decisions and bugs in the game.  There are plenty of work-arounds for this and as someone who has run multiple melee lives, incorporeal hasn't been a concern since my first life. 

The only reason it was a thing on my first life was just because I knew jack shit about DDO overall and had no idea what gear to look for or how to do a proper build.  So even on the first life, the problem wasn't really incorporeal bypass weapons, it was just a lack of game knowledge.

Personally, I think it's kind of cool that you have to gather and carry various scenario specific pieces of gear rather than just a one-size fits all set.


I can see that there's plenty of other stuff to bitch about in DDO. And I totally agree, the gathering lots of different items for different situations is part of the charm of DDO. Hell IMO it's part of PnP to have the DM present an obstacle and having just that specific skill/item/idea that makes it way less  difficult.

Perhaps my problem with the design of reapers is in part that they're implementing a mechanic they themselves seem to both be moving away from and towards at the same time. In tower of frost for example there's a couple of orange/red named with very high DR. Cool you should just carry a DR beater. But epsecially in random loot those DR beaters don't appear very often. You can cannith craft them, but the price of admission in cannith crafting is quite high. Luckily we have stuff like GS and some older named items that make superb DR breakers but that's mostly from content that SSG hasn't touched in 3 - 5 years.

I feel like SSG is creating this weird combination of expecting us to be prepared for anything in combination with limiting our easy access to being prepared for this stuff. Everbright is another (less aggregious because crafting) example of this. It might just be me (and in reading the replies a lot of people are perfectly okay with this although it still smells of lazy design) but even recent named loot has been so either lackluster or must slot that I feel there's a whole well of niche item combinations they''re leaving untapped. Before the FoS loot overhaul you could have some truly interesting situational lootgen items. Now the truly amazing lootgen items are those that have a higher number of X.

Or maybe i'm just getting old.

And as to the whole reaper is way more challenging for melee than ranged/caster. The retarded thing is 1 skulling might (especially with the current champion bug) be easier for casters in most circumstances, the lost souls can keep you topped up for quite a while. The weird part is that the slavers end fight was (at least in it's first draft) designed very specifically to also hamper ranged toons. It didn't really work in practice and SSG seems to be completely out of ideads as to how to challenge ranged toons so they might just have said fuck it and not invested any more time. Side effect of this is that I find my current repeater rogue life boring as fuck but hey, rockstars and all.
« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:31am by Bushin »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #22 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 7:27am
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Vaultaccount wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:51am:
But just imagine the number of SSG paladins there, if even on the Vault you are getting a number of them...

Meh.  For every 2 slurpers at the SSG cock who will rise in their wrath to counter any 'melee suck now' thread there is at least 1 player who is a frothing pool of hate over the melee situation as it stands and has stood for several updates now (probably from around the time of legendary and the nerf to mortal fear) and who will gladly jump on any thread in the 'melee suck now' bandwagon.  And they have a lot of solid points.

Here's a pre-level 10 cc weapon build for all the melees, so no expensive extra slot needed:
Select prefix:Non-scaling: Ghost Touch.
Select suffix:Bane: Evil Outsider Bane 1d10

Bound cost: Slime Mold = 15, Stone Fetish = 5, Blade of the Dark Six = 15, Soul Gem: Essence of the Dominator = 1

The essence cost will depend on the ML, but that is a trivial cost regardless.  The hardest thing in that list might be the soul gem, for those who have never run a wizard life or have never crafted a green steel tts weapon.  And even then it should only be as difficult as asking your guildmates, people on your friends list or that you group with, or hitting trade channels in a few zones across a few days maybe.

Find a silver weapon with a red augment, although metal drops with augment slots seem to be a whole lot more rare now than before the NRL rollout, and you can add your choice of a ruby eye, vamp slayer, endless night, whatever.

Low level items like just about every weapon that Garamol drops are a lot nicer now.  Sunblade, Luckblade, etc.

I'd still prefer to run a ranged or a caster, but there are options for the melees.

Bushin wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:27am:
The retarded thing is 1 skulling might (especially with the current champion bug) be easier for casters in most circumstances, the lost souls can keep you topped up for quite a while.

Yeah, most mobs will die in the same amount of spells anyway, so the extra mana to kill a few is more than made up for by the free mana from the lost souls.  That seems to be valid up to maybe r2-r3, for me and when running a character with a bunch of past lives.
  

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Digimonk wrote on Dec 8th, 2016 at 12:39pm:
I've had multiple RoSS rot just from doing the explorer points in Sands across multiple lives since it is exclusive.


Smart players know how to use buyback.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:58pm:
I will not chone.

I did what I did intentionally and while my primary purpose was not to annoy the other Vaulties, I acknowledge that it was a side effect.


Smart people don't elicit "side effects."  They understand in advance the consequences of their actions.
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #23 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 12:05pm
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Bushin wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 1:54pm:
TL:DR Giving reapers incorporeality is retarded with the current random lootgen.


The fact Reaper mode was necessary at all is a tribute to bad decision making.

Ditto Racial TR and Racial AP.

It's an admission they couldn't balance the game difficulty, the class balance, or the racial trees and so they had to incentivize it all.

As to the Ghost Touch thing... I believe the Rockstarz™ are scared shitless to touch the loot tables again for fear of another "Ghostbaning" incident.

I'll agree that setting the crafting levels so high for common utility items is a head scratcher, but then again, they're also trying to incentivize the new crafting, or rather the new collectables, to run the mass-duped old ingredients out of the game.

Which is another tacit admission of failure on their part, however they choose to frame it to get to sleep at night.

In any event, like Digimonk said, there's lots of options to overcome this particular hurdle.

Which isn't very high to begin with.

And this is coming from a guy that HATES "challenge".

YMMV.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #24 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 12:47pm
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Metal-Beast wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 12:05pm:
In any event, like Digimonk said, there's lots of options to overcome this particular hurdle.


Yeah I guess the hurdle's more easy to overcome than I first figured. Even though I still think it's less easy for lower levels. I still think it's weird to put ghost touch at so high a crafting requirement. Looking at it again everbright is on that level too. I guess the rockstarz figured ghost touch/everbright are as important as metaline/alligned.

The thread has highlighted quite a few other design flaws with reaper which I find interesting. Mainly the fact that the devs apparantly have no real counter for (or interest in countering) ranged/caster toons is quite sad. Most of the extra hurdle in reaper is felt more/solely by melee toons.
  
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