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Hot Topic (More than 35 Replies) Another terrible design decision? (Read 24010 times)
Digimonk
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #25 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 2:31pm
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Bushin wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:27am:
And as to the whole reaper is way more challenging for melee than ranged/caster. The retarded thing is 1 skulling might (especially with the current champion bug) be easier for casters in most circumstances, the lost souls can keep you topped up for quite a while. The weird part is that the slavers end fight was (at least in it's first draft) designed very specifically to also hamper ranged toons. It didn't really work in practice and SSG seems to be completely out of ideads as to how to challenge ranged toons so they might just have said fuck it and not invested any more time. Side effect of this is that I find my current repeater rogue life boring as fuck but hey, rockstars and all.

You know, I keep seeing people say Reaper is easier for ranged and casters than melee and that dumb BS is getting old.   I expect that level of stupid on the mobos, but not here.  The issue is that reaper has changed what qualifies as a meta melee build whereas it did not change the qualifications for ranged and casters as much.

Why do people not realize that high skull reaper is "meta builds only" mode?  It was intentionally designed that way by the devs and they mostly got that part of it right.  Whether that is a healthy long-term design decision remains to be seen but is a topic for a different discussion.

The only thing reaper really changed for melee (but really all build types) is that glass-cannon is no longer viable.  A melee build that balances DPS, CC options, and defense is the new meta for melee in reaper. 

People keep crying about ranged and casters having it easier but they fail to realize is that the current generation of ranged and caster builds were already utilizing top-notch defensive options in addition to the DPS goodies.  For example, shuricannon builds were already running around in water stance for the ki regen and 10ks bonuses.  They had 40% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 120+ AC, etc .  Ditto for the shiradi builds. 

Prior to reaper, most of the popular melee builds mostly dumped defense in favor of DPS options because the baseline/default defensive stuff they had just by virtue of being melee were good enough.  That's not true in reaper and people need to learn to adjust.

You can't roll some full-retard glass-cannon melee build that dumped defenses for "MOAR DPS!" in high skull reaper because that's not meta build in Reaper.  It's the reasoning we all (except Fran) understand applies to why you can't  faceroll at-level EEs solo with a full-retard turn undead cleric build.

There are melee builds that work in Reaper.  I've personally seen some do very well in high-skull reaper missions.  The ones I've seen do plenty of DPS and die less than I do as a ranged because they don't get 1-shotted by anything that sneezes in their direction.

« Last Edit: Mar 22nd, 2017 at 2:34pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #26 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:52pm
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You can play a melee just fine if theres cc.

Most mobs even champs are not a big problem if not red named or immune to stun.

The problems are the reapers if they look weird at you, you are a soulstone.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #27 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:34pm
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 2:31pm:
You know, I keep seeing people say Reaper is easier for ranged and casters than melee and that dumb BS is getting old.   I expect that level of stupid on the mobos, but not here.  The issue is that reaper has changed what qualifies as a meta melee build whereas it did not change the qualifications for ranged and casters as much.

Why do people not realize that high skull reaper is "meta builds only" mode?

This is true for the mid levels of reaper, but not the high levels.  And the low levels of reaper are just the new EEblack.

Snipped for brevity:
Digimonk wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 2:31pm:
The only thing reaper really changed for melee (but really all build types) is that glass-cannon is no longer viable.  A melee build that balances DPS, CC options, and defense is the new meta for melee in reaper. 

Prior to reaper, most of the popular melee builds mostly dumped defense in favor of DPS options because the baseline/default defensive stuff they had just by virtue of being melee were good enough.

You can't roll some full-retard glass-cannon melee build that dumped defenses for "MOAR DPS!" in high skull reaper because that's not meta build in Reaper.

There are melee builds that work in Reaper.  they don't get 1-shotted by anything that sneezes in their direction.


Tell all of that to the tank here:

Prior to reaper a good tank could turtle up and let a healer keep them alive while doing his job of keeping Z and the pups on him instead of roaming around killing the party.  You know, that team play that reaper was supposed to enhance.

Now?  All he could do was hop around like a grasshopper and if Z landed a single hit on him he would die.  That qualifies as 'sneezes in his direction,' yes?  And then he'd blame lag, which I thought was funny.  All the while eating a pile of festivult cookies which if they aren't duped are a limited resource you can't even buy with TP.

That's not 'team play,' he didn't need any support except for a rez when he died, and that's exactly the same for any other character.

Tell me this guy isn't running a meta-build.  Tell me he sacrificed defenses for DPS.  I've watched a couple other vids from this guys pov, he does a lot of shield blocking and clearly has a great tank build.  He isn't killing anything.  He isn't a glass canon build, but that doesn't matter.

The meta is that at high reaper levels one hit is a kill, and any melee dps build must by their very nature deliver their dps within the danger zone of 360 cleaves and many other mechanics that ranged/casters do not have to deal with in most cases to deliver their dps.  Claiming that melee builds are bitching without justification is overlooking the actual meta.

As an aside, the meta actually pushes a lot of ranged/casters away from the build strategies you cite where they had "40% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 120+ AC, etc ." in favor of more dps.  Not entirely, but I've seen it many times and their justification for low HP and low PRR (and AC, lol) was that it simply did not matter at the levels they played.  One hit = dead.
  

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Digimonk wrote on Dec 8th, 2016 at 12:39pm:
I've had multiple RoSS rot just from doing the explorer points in Sands across multiple lives since it is exclusive.


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Digimonk wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:58pm:
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I did what I did intentionally and while my primary purpose was not to annoy the other Vaulties, I acknowledge that it was a side effect.


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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #28 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 6:48pm
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Asheras wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:22pm:
Chainging from a wraith to a scorpion doesn't change the fact that the reaper has PRR and no MRR and hits like a triuck.

Failed sarcasm check. Turning reapers into scorpions would just emphasize how fucking stupid scorpion burrowing is. Up next, reaper phase spiders.

Asheras wrote on Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:22pm:
and reduce their damage similar to melee damage reduction that already exists

Strong no. Reaper damage reduction is fucktarded. Adding more of it is just doubling-down on boredom.


(Reaper beholders is a good idea, though. Unless Turbined into phasing and/or burrowing and/or weird automatic miss chance that bats have for ranged.
Beholders that jump backwards into the landscape, I think would be absurd enough that it would become amusing again. The same way a bad movie starts to become entertaining as a train wreck.)



Bushin wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:27am:
SSG seems to be completely out of ideads as to how to challenge ranged toons

How to Challenge Ranged Toons
Step One: Small featureless rooms.
Finished.
No profit.

For challenging those who know how to kite in a small circle, litter the ground. This is tricky for SSG though, because they don't play, and consequently don't know which landscape obstacles mobs tend to get stuck on/think they're in melee range when they're not.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #29 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:01am
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Frank wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:34pm:
This is true for the mid levels of reaper, but not the high levels.  And the low levels of reaper are just the new EEblack.

Not denying that 10-skull reaper is no joke, but it's pretty disingenuous to cherry pick video from one of the more current end-game raids with some of the hardest hitting mobs and say "see!?!   it doesn't work".  Sure, for that one example.  God forbid you have to use a different strategy than "turtle up while shield blocking and intimidating while the healer spams you" on certain encounters.  Additionally, tanks are a specific subset of melee builds.  Not all melee builds are tanks.

Yes, melee may get one-shotted from time to time even when they're not tanking but casters and ranged get wrecked by archers and the enemy casters so it's not like they don't get one-shotted, too.   Do people really expect melee builds to not ever get one-shotted in R10?  That's pretty much 100% opposite of the point of R10.

A guildie runs a twf melee that solos R4s in a reasonable time and does really well on R5-R10 missions in a group.  He's not a heavy tank build by any means.  He has about 2k hps.   Consistently has less deaths and more kills than the ranged and casters in the group though.  Before the "KC isn't the same as DPS" thing gets brought up for the umpteenth time, I'll go ahead and remind you that he solos R4s in a reasonably quicktime which he obviously could not do if he had crap damage output.

For years, people have been crying that end-game content was a snoozefest that could be steamrolled on gimp flavor builds.  The devs finally give in and give us something that can't be steamrolled and people lose their minds spamming that it's too hard and asking for it to be dumbed before it's even been out more than month. 

I think it's a good thing to have content that we can't beat on the highest difficulty two weeks after it's released.  It's a pleasant change from the day-1 EE/LE completions of new raids.
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:08am by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #30 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:39am
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Frank wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:34pm:
Skull 10 hox


Having been in that run, he can actually take a hit sometimes, and that is probably one of the hardest hitting mobs in the game.

I play a melee monk in Skull 10s and its not that bad honestly.

Cleaving bosses are often avoided PURELY by standing at the max distance while the tank face-tanks.
Do I die sometimes? Yes.

But as a melee I do 1.3X as much damage as ranged due to envelopes, not counting the difference inherently.

When Ell posted that video on the mobos of him getting cleaved by a rogue boss I was laughing my ass off.

Totally unnecessary!
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #31 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 3:18am
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Revaulting wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 6:48pm:
Reaper beholders is a good idea, though. Unless Turbined into phasing and/or burrowing and/or weird automatic miss chance that bats have for ranged.


Granted they could've made the reapers (having their design inspiration clearly taken from wraiths) a lot worse. Imagine if they had the wraith/spectre phasing bullshit. Unhittable till they tap you on the shoulder. That would be fun* times.

*Fun in the way SSG wants you to have it.

Digimonk wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 2:31pm:
There are melee builds that work in Reaper.  I've personally seen some do very well in high-skull reaper missions.  The ones I've seen do plenty of DPS and die less than I do as a ranged because they don't get 1-shotted by anything that sneezes in their direction.


I agree that there's good melee builds (even with DPS) that can hold their own in reaper. But you can't deny that those builds have had to have their play styles adjusted to do well in reaper. As for casters and ranged toons, it's the same old run backwards and fling arrows/bolts/lightning/dildos untill thing dies (add a little zigzagging if you're feeling balsy) whereas melees (at least on higher skulls) now have to jump around like a grasshopper with ADD because you might be able to take 1-2 hits but you still can't go toe to toe with the mob.

Maybe It's just me finding the optimal ranged playstyle boring AF now that i think about it.

(Also to clarify, I actually like the concept of reaper mode and I love a challenge. I just feel that it could've just been so much better if it had been better thought out)
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2017 at 3:21am by Bushin »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #32 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 5:22am
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:01am:
but casters and ranged get wrecked by archers

If this is true, they are Fran. Or Cordo. Or ... do any of the devs play? Maybe it was a dev getting his shit ruined by archers.

For fuck's sake, archers are why Memoirs can be permadeath soloed at lvl 10.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #33 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 5:58am
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Lol reading the debates one would have to think that people do 10 skulls only.

10 skulls is absurd difficulty that needs absurd tactics.

For the rest of the game, melee shits on ranged or casters.
Especially with proper cc and hjealing.

Besides, I would think that if yo do higher skulls, it's a good thing to have good toon with you - whatever build it is.
Unless it's midget or tardlock. Then it needs to die in a fire.
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2017 at 6:01am by Wipe »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #34 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:44am
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Bushin wrote on Mar 20th, 2017 at 1:54pm:
TL:DR Giving reapers incorporeality is retarded with the current random lootgen.


Why is this thread 3 pages long when the answer is:

Reaper was designed for those who wanted an extreme challenge.  if you can't handle incorporeality on a low-level toon after 11 years, then perhaps you are like Fran and Reaper is not designed for you.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #35 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 10:19am
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bob the builder wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:44am:
Why is this thread 3 pages long when the answer is:

Reaper was designed for those who wanted an extreme challenge.  if you can't handle incorporeality on a low-level toon after 11 years, then perhaps you are like Fran and Reaper is not designed for you.


+1
  

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volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #36 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 2:30pm
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Revaulting wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 5:22am:
If this is true, they are Fran. Or Cordo. Or ... do any of the devs play? Maybe it was a dev getting his shit ruined by archers.

For fuck's sake, archers are why Memoirs can be permadeath soloed at lvl 10.

Sure, easy to say that.  Even easier to cherry pick a gimp mission where you have to kill what?  30 mobs total?   There's also a BIG difference between soloing an elite heroic mission a few levels under versus doing it on epic 10-skull.  Roll Eyes

I am well aware that standing still as a ranged or caster in high skull reaper is a deathwish and I do my damnedest to stay moving but occasionally, something will catch me.  Lag, spells, the stupid dragon breath in the Black and Blue mission where the it has a hitbox of 100 square miles, a reaper or devil warping, etc.  Sometimes you're stuck in a small room or a hallway without room to maneuver, etc.  When I do get caught, it's almost always a 1-shot death on 10-skull.

Note that I didn't say archers and casters kill ranged builds constantly.  It's an occasional thing.  Maybe once or twice a mission.  What it boils down to is that no matter what you do, you will get hit from time to time.  And as a ranged or caster, when you get caught, you get wrecked.
« Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2017 at 2:33pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #37 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:35pm
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bob the builder wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:44am:
Reaper was designed

Let's just stop you there, for sanity's sake. Reaper was not designed for (or by), anyone. Reaper was kludged on top of a rickety patchwork of kludges. "Design" completely misses what makes it hard for anyone, devs included, to get what they want out of the game.


Digimonk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 2:30pm:
Lag, spells, the stupid dragon breath in the Black and Blue mission where the it has a hitbox of 100 square miles, a reaper or devil warping, etc.

And here we agree again.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #38 - Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:25pm
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Revaulting wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:35pm:
Let's just stop you there, for sanity's sake. Reaper was not designed for (or by), anyone. Reaper was kludged on top of a rickety patchwork of kludges. "Design" completely misses what makes it hard for anyone, devs included, to get what they want out of the game.


Given the massive volume of direct feedback I gave Sev (which he listened to---fucking amazing) over two months of lammania testing I'd say...

...Reaper was made for me.

The only thing I bitched about that he wouldn't adjust was the self-healing debuff. I asked for it to be slightly less severe.
  

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volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #39 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 1:08am
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:25pm:
...Reaper was made for me.

Do you enjoy it?
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #40 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 5:44am
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« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2017 at 5:47am by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #41 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 6:52am
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:01am:
Yes, melee may get one-shotted from time to time even when they're not tanking but casters and ranged get wrecked by archers and the enemy casters so it's not like they don't get one-shotted, too.   Do people really expect melee builds to not ever get one-shotted in R10?  That's pretty much 100% opposite of the point of R10.


LOL no. One shotting is dumb, no matter what. What we were looking too when all those threads about DDO being too easy appeared was not more one shotting.

Digimonk wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:01am:
For years, people have been crying that end-game content was a snoozefest that could be steamrolled on gimp flavor builds.  The devs finally give in and give us something that can't be steamrolled and people lose their minds spamming that it's too hard and asking for it to be dumbed before it's even been out more than month. 



But this is off topic. As to OP, I pretty much agree, the ghost touch is retarded and drives new players out. It should not be a mandatory to have, specially if it's something newbies don't have any acess to.

And too bad they can't play on other difficulties, because they can't find a party for non-reaper. And no, the fucking catacombs shit is not an option. The DPS of newbies is already 0, don't force them to do -1.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #42 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 12:00pm
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Vaultaccount wrote on Mar 24th, 2017 at 6:52am:
LOL no. One shotting is dumb, no matter what. What we were looking too when all those threads about DDO being too easy appeared was not more one shotting.

You misunderstand.  I'm not saying I think Reaper is done perfect or even mostly right.  In fact, I think that outside of end-game raids, the one-shot death and mountain of HP/massive DR design model is a lazy, stupid, and unimaginative cop out on the devs' part.  There are so many better ways to create challenge. 

Judgement of their design decisions aside though, the one-shot mechanic it is the reality we've been given.  High skull reaper mode does make at-level content difficult enough to render all but the very best builds and players ineffective, which is what the devs were going for.  To quote them, "The DM is trying to kill you."  From that perspective, it's mission accomplished.

Additionally, wtf is up with everyone thinking that because the devs roll out a new, selectable difficulty with options from 1 to 10 that they should all, automagically be able to roll through 10 on day one using the same shitty builds and subpar playing skills that were good enough in the "too easy" content?  That's some serious, juvenile entitlement right there.

If they can't beat 10-skull, they should dial the skulls back until they can beat it and use that to practice and improve until they can beat 10-skull.  Nobody's forcing them to run 10-skull and it's not like there's special loot available from 10-skull that they can't get from skulls 1-9.


On a side note, I think the devs mostly got the new raid right, especially after the recent adjustment to the dragon's HPs.  That raid is actually fun because it requires that you use teamwork, communicate with the group, and react properly to the various mechanics rather than just clearing 234342342 trash mobs and then going full retard DPS burn mode on a boss.

Hopefully they continue that trend going forward. 


« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2017 at 12:12pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #43 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 3:25pm
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 24th, 2017 at 12:00pm:
To quote them, "The DM is trying to kill you."  From that perspective, it's mission accomplished.

No. But if it had been "The DM is trying to bore you to death," then yes.
  

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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #44 - Mar 25th, 2017 at 5:58pm
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 24th, 2017 at 12:00pm:
Additionally, wtf is up with everyone thinking that because the devs roll out a new, selectable difficulty with options from 1 to 10 that they should all, automagically be able to roll through 10 on day one using the same shitty builds and subpar playing skills that were good enough in the "too easy" content?  That's some serious, juvenile entitlement right there.

If they can't beat 10-skull, they should dial the skulls back until they can beat it and use that to practice and improve until they can beat 10-skull.  Nobody's forcing them to run 10-skull and it's not like there's special loot available from 10-skull that they can't get from skulls 1-9.


What are you talking about? Haven't seen anyone saying that.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #45 - Mar 25th, 2017 at 8:45pm
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Vaultaccount wrote on Mar 25th, 2017 at 5:58pm:
What are you talking about? Haven't seen anyone saying that.

The motherboards.  Bunches of threads of "it's too hard, I can't do 10-skull" type bs.
« Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2017 at 8:45pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #46 - Mar 26th, 2017 at 5:53am
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bob the builder wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:44am:
Why is this thread 3 pages long when the answer is:

Reaper was designed for those who wanted an extreme challenge.  if you can't handle incorporeality on a low-level toon after 11 years, then perhaps you are like Fran and Reaper is not designed for you.


But it's not really the case of being able to "handle" incorporeal is it? That's my main gripe. For low level characters (and yes specificall those) It's a case of do you have specific item x or y? If yes, congratulations. The challenge is severely lessened. If not and you are on a melee. Hope that the dice work out in your favor and you don't miss due to incorporeality 50 times.

Reading this thread there are definitely options and that lessens my gripe somewhat but i'm still of the opinion that shit like ghost touch should appear in the random loot tables, especially when you're building a mob around it.
  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #47 - Mar 27th, 2017 at 9:37am
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Digimonk wrote on Mar 25th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
The motherboards.  Bunches of threads of "it's too hard, I can't do 10-skull" type bs.


Missed those, haven't seen it. I have seen threads complaining about how X playstyle is affected by the meta.
« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2017 at 9:38am by Vaultaccount »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #48 - Mar 27th, 2017 at 9:41am
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Bushin wrote on Mar 26th, 2017 at 5:53am:
But it's not really the case of being able to "handle" incorporeal is it? That's my main gripe


Exactly, that's the whole point.

If you can circumvent the challenge, it's not a challenge. Choosing to not circumvent also isn't.

If that was the case, the whole reaper difficulty would not need to be added, as you could do the same without reaper creating difficulty by yourself playing underlv/crap build/naked, instead of circumventing the challenge by playing at cap, with top gear and on meta build.

This is why there is so many complaints about reaper implementation. It fails to add challenge to top meta builds/parties. If you have to create challenge for youself, than it's not any different than playing naking.
« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2017 at 9:49am by Vaultaccount »  
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Re: Another terrible design decision?
Reply #49 - Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:16am
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bob the builder wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 9:44am:
Why is this thread 3 pages long when the answer is:

Reaper was designed for those who wanted an extreme challenge.  if you can't handle incorporeality on a low-level toon after 11 years, then perhaps you are like Fran and Reaper is not designed for you.



FFS!

No Reaper was not designed for me!

But it seems it also wasn't designed to provide that "extreme challenge" so many people seemed to want!

If it had been there wouldn't be any R10 Completions yet!
There would barely be any R7 Completions and most players would still be happy to run Elite whereas I now can't get a group together for Elite BB Heroic Gianthold Walkups!

Now Elite BB GH Walkups I have no problems with on most of my characters but I do still have some characters that do need a little help there! {And a lot more help for Vale, RR, Shav etc.!}.

It's even worse in Epics where Dailies are now becoming R1 too because everyone needs their ludicrous grind RXP!


Currently we have a lot of players trying to get low and mid tier Reaper reduced in difficulty {R1 is already easier than Elite to Casters but yeah!} - I DON'T WANT THAT!

I'm on your side here - I want you to have an "Extreme Challenge" difficulty!
I just don't want you ONLY running that - It should be something you set up a weekly or monthly group for - Something you don't do all the time!
Because all the time = Eventually {with DDO that's usually sooner rather than later too} it just goes back to being a boring grind!


I would have ran THAT Reaper maybe once a month, maybe irregularly when friends logged on and wanted to run it - I won't run THIS Reaper, because it's just a Grind!
« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:16am by FranOhmsford »  

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