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5 Foot Step
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Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Mar 28th, 2017 at 1:50pm
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Alignment: Neutral Good
Class: 20 Fighter


Stats: (28 pt build)

Strength...........17 (+ level ups)
Dexterity...........13
Constitution.......16
Intelligence........8
Wisdom.............8
Charisma...........8

Stats: (32 pt build)

Strength...........18 (+ level ups)
Dexterity...........14
Constitution.......16
Intelligence........8
Wisdom.............8
Charisma...........8

Feat Progression:

Level 1     : Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword (Swap for Dwarf)
Level 1     : Power Attack
Level 2     : Cleave
Level 3     : Two Handed Fighting
Level 4     : Great Cleave
Level 6     : Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 6     : Improved Shield Bash
Level 8     : Improved Critical Slashing
Level 9     : Improved Shield Mastery
Level 10   : Dodge
Level 12   : Greater Two Handed Fighting
Level 12   : Mobility
Level 14   : Heavy Armor Champion
Level 15   : Weapon Focus Slashing
Level 16   : Heavy Armor Mastery
Level 18   : Heavy Armor Combatant
Level 18   : Weapon Specialization Slashing
Level 20   : Greater Weapon Focus Slashing
Level 21   : Overwhelming Critical
Level 24   : Bulwark of Defense
Level 26   : Perfect Two Handed Fighting
Level 27   : Epic DR
Level 28   : Elusive Target
Level 29   : Dire Charge
Level 30   : Greater Weapon Specialization Slashing
Level 30   : Scion of Celestia


if human add
if Dwarf swap EWP for

Skills:
Intimidate

if human/drow add Jump
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2017 at 1:58pm by 5 Foot Step »  

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Asheras
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #1 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:12am
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I dunno.  Dodge and Mobility on a heavy armor build vs. taking tactics?  Points in dex instead of con?  Still not finding that compelling. 

We are talking about +2 or +3 AC and 5% dodge?  Feels really meh for two feats. 

Iron Will?  Seriously?  I had to look that feat up.  Why so opposed to Tactical Supremacy, Stunning Blow, Improved Trip, or Improved Sunder?  Or Weapon Specialization?  We prefer +2 to will save vs. +2 damage per swing and +2 MP?  Hard pass.  You want a better will save, move those dex points to wisdom and use the 3 feats you are wasting on something that makes sense.
« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:15am by Asheras »  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #2 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:32am
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Asheras wrote on Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:12am:
I dunno.  Dodge and Mobility on a heavy armor build vs. taking tactics?  Points in dex instead of con?  Still not finding that compelling. 

We are talking about +2 or +3 AC and 5% dodge?  Feels really meh for two feats. 

Iron Will?  Seriously?  I had to look that feat up.  Why so opposed to Tactical Supremacy, Stunning Blow, Improved Trip, or Improved Sunder?  Or Weapon Specialization?  We prefer +2 to will save vs. +2 damage per swing and +2 MP?  Hard pass.  You want a better will save, move those dex points to wisdom and use the 3 feats you are wasting on something that makes sense.



Excellent points, is it possible the op is just posting this as bait? Sorry if that sounds cynical, it just seems pretty wonky.
  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #3 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:32am
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Asheras wrote on Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:12am:
I dunno.  Dodge and Mobility on a heavy armor build vs. taking tactics?  Points in dex instead of con?  Still not finding that compelling. 

We are talking about +2 or +3 AC and 5% dodge?  Feels really meh for two feats. 

Iron Will?  Seriously?  I had to look that feat up.  Why so opposed to Tactical Supremacy, Stunning Blow, Improved Trip, or Improved Sunder?  Or Weapon Specialization?  We prefer +2 to will save vs. +2 damage per swing and +2 MP?  Hard pass.  You want a better will save, move those dex points to wisdom and use the 3 feats you are wasting on something that makes sense.



Excellent points, is it possible the op is just posting this as bait? Sorry if that sounds cynical, it just seems pretty wonky.
  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #4 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:33am
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Asheras wrote on Mar 29th, 2017 at 11:12am:
I dunno.  Dodge and Mobility on a heavy armor build vs. taking tactics?  Points in dex instead of con?  Still not finding that compelling. 

We are talking about +2 or +3 AC and 5% dodge?  Feels really meh for two feats. 

Iron Will?  Seriously?  I had to look that feat up.  Why so opposed to Tactical Supremacy, Stunning Blow, Improved Trip, or Improved Sunder?  Or Weapon Specialization?  We prefer +2 to will save vs. +2 damage per swing and +2 MP?  Hard pass.  You want a better will save, move those dex points to wisdom and use the 3 feats you are wasting on something that makes sense.



Excellent points, is it possible the op is just posting this as bait? Sorry if that sounds cynical, it just seems pretty wonky.
  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #5 - Mar 29th, 2017 at 6:38pm
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I'm with Ash on this. Don't troll beginners into thinking Lightning Reflexes or Iron Will can change the results of their saving throws at all. Moar Con &/or Str.

Likewise, toss Dodge, Mobility, & Toughness.

Those are 5 feats easily spent on Wpn. Spec.
  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #6 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 1:55pm
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If they pick Stalwart Defender, they are signing up to play a tank. There's really nothing we can do to the build to make them not suck at this, but I figured to at least pay lip service so they can make a go of it on normal.

You guys are right though, Toughness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes are shit we should avoid, I can change those.

I don't get the hate on Dodge though, when the new most important defensive ability is not getting hit in the first place.

Edited OP.
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2017 at 1:58pm by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #7 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 2:45pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 1:55pm:
If they pick Stalwart Defender, they are signing up to play a tank. There's really nothing we can do to the build to make them not suck at this, but I figured to at least pay lip service so they can make a go of it on normal.

You guys are right though, Toughness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes are shit we should avoid, I can change those.

I don't get the hate on Dodge though, when the new most important defensive ability is not getting hit in the first place.

Edited OP.


Tanking on a fighter is about AC and PRR.  Heavy armor has a base MDB of 0 or 1 for the armor a newb will be using.  That's your dodge cap.  IF you spend AP on the T1 enhancement you can get a +3 and Mobility gives you a +2.  But, even so, you are looking at a very small amount of dodge.  5%, best case scenario.  For a two feat investment.  That is 1 miss in 20. 

If you are going defense, where is the combat expertise?  +10% AC vs. 5% dodge?  Not even a question.  The difference between a 60 AC and a 72 is a 10% miss chance on CR 25-30 mob.  Much better use of a feat for a first lifer who wants to not die. 

For the other feat, heavy armor training is better for the +3 MRR and +3 PRR.  It helps both types of damage.  Per hit.  Vs. a very small binary.   Or go with toughness.  With a decent PRR or MRR, an extra 15 HP can effectively be 30. 




  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #8 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:02pm
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Having tactics package over mobility will probably be better. New players are going to die, a lot. Stunning blow lets them mitigate more than dodging a small chance. They'll have higher rate of survival against champions if they can stun/trip. Defender inherently has less dps than the other 2 fighter trees and the tactics would win out for me.
  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #9 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:17pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:02pm:
Having tactics package over mobility will probably be better. New players are going to die, a lot. Stunning blow lets them mitigate more than dodging a small chance. They'll have higher rate of survival against champions if they can stun/trip. Defender inherently has less dps than the other 2 fighter trees and the tactics would win out for me. 


Agreed.  Another better direction for two feats than dodge + mobility. 

  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #10 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 6:28pm
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Asheras wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 2:45pm:
Heavy armor has a base MDB of 0 or 1 for the armor a newb will be using.  That's your dodge cap.


Code
Select All
FULL PLATE	Armor +8, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%
Battle		Armor +12, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 6
Magecraft	Armor +16, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 10
Mountain        Armor +20, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 16


HALF PLATE	Armor +7, Max Dex 0, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%
Battle		Armor +10, Max Dex 3, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 4
Magecraft	Armor +13, Max Dex 4, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 10
Mountain        Armor +17, Max Dex 5, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 16 



Dodge is taken at level 10. Half Plate is 4 MDB at that level and scales up. Named items are often higher.

Asheras wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 2:45pm:
combat expertise


It thought about CE, but requires 13 int, so I couldn't do it and dodge, and isn't that sexy until you are twinked out, and it turns off PA, and unlike Sacred Defender this one can't pick up cleave without PA.
  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 2:04pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 6:28pm:
Code
Select All
FULL PLATE	Armor +8, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%
Battle		Armor +12, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 6
Magecraft	Armor +16, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 10
Mountain        Armor +20, Max Dex 1, Armor Check -5, ASL 35%, AML 16


HALF PLATE	Armor +7, Max Dex 0, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%
Battle		Armor +10, Max Dex 3, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 4
Magecraft	Armor +13, Max Dex 4, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 10
Mountain        Armor +17, Max Dex 5, Armor Check -4, ASL 30%, AML 16 



Dodge is taken at level 10. Half Plate is 4 MDB at that level and scales up. Named items are often higher.


It thought about CE, but requires 13 int, so I couldn't do it and dodge, and isn't that sexy until you are twinked out, and it turns off PA, and unlike Sacred Defender this one can't pick up cleave without PA.


And you think new players are figuring that chart out.  Or have named armor at level.  Lol.  Look, you like dodge and mobility on a heavy armor fighter over PRR/MRR, AC, or tactics.  I disagree.  I think it leads to a crappy build long term.

A much better choice would be stunning blow, improved trip and the top two tactics feats.  It is a tank.  lets see some CC, since DPS is shit.

Teach them right.  Not low hanging fruit that is really a dead end trap.
  
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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 3:22pm
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Kill Dodge & Mobility. Seriously.
  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 9:47am
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If they can't figure out how to do armor and dodge, then how are they going to figure out how to do tactics?
  

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Re: Stalwart Defender path for beginners
Reply #14 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 11:46am
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5 Foot Step wrote on Apr 2nd, 2017 at 9:47am:
If they can't figure out how to do armor and dodge, then how are they going to figure out how to do tactics?

Tactics has a button to push. Armor gets worn and mostly forgotten. Maybe dodge & mobility can combine to secretly keep them from getting hit 1 time out of 20, but that isn't the kind of thing that will keep butts in seats, is it? "Look at my super knockout punch!" is.
  

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