So.

Back in the days my friends and I used to play pnp dnd 2nd ed, then 3rd ed and 3,5 ed.

Certain core rule questions always came up but among all of them there was one particular question I have been wanting to ask for some time now.



So here it is: In Forgotten Realms Campaign setting 3.0 (and 3.5 too) under dwarf / duergar descriptions it said: "duergar women do not grow beards [unlike shield/gold dwarves]".

So does it mean they shave their beards or that in general, facial hair does not grow on their (duergar women) faces? Which interpretation is correct? Is that statement really misunderstandable? An aussie friend of mine was also baffled by that sentence, now I am curious with all the american and british vaulties around which interpretation sounds more reasonable?

Meat prolly has better understanding of english, so curious about his interpretation as well.

no. wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 8:17am:


You know, it is a causation issue...or not, that is why I asked. Plus it would give me some relief to know that even tho bearded dorf women became an accepted idea in 2000~, it would be nice to know that at least duergar are left alone with this somewhat annoying addon. 

I kinda like duergar, they are like the githyanki, but without all the conquer-all mentality. They are basically tough, cynical survivalists.

m4lacka wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 8:31am:


Tough, cynical, survivalist women would grow beards if they were able to(it helps insulate the face in winter, plus it cuts down on time wasted shaving).

Ergo, the must not be capable of growing beards.

That's one interpretation, the sentence by itself is extremely ambiguous. When describing by humans, we generally say "women don't grow beards" as opposed to 'can't'. Not that that statement comes up very often, but if I had to describe it to, say, a young child or an alien, I'd probably say "don't"

Slick Stick wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 11:59am:

Nice summation of a thread with 5 posts. You are just a parrot aren't you?

Stop setting unrealistic body image standards for Duregar!

Or ask Ed.

Ah Pook wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 1:51pm:



Huh?

He basically stated that it could be either way, basically not answering the question. He simply restated the question in answer form without giving a definitive answer, just a guess with an out. His out was the original fucking question. It makes me want to pull my hair out.

Slick Stick wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 2:22pm:

Count the question marks in OP, genius.

His answer was "yes, it's ambiguous," which is correct.

Dwarven females having facial hair (beards especially) is officially Gay & Retarded™.

Grow the fuck up, dipshits.

FTL wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 3:53pm:


With cultural/ethnic subgroups of human males who chose to remain clean-shaven, we generally have to specify that they can but don't.

So, another question arises: are the duergar genetically distinct from races of dwarves where the females typically grow facial hair? As in, are they distinct enough to be considered a separate species(such as a sheep and goat), or are they more like "dwarves, but black" ?

If its the latter, then the correct answer is that they chose to shave. If its the former, then the sentence is still ambiguous.

harharharhar wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:16pm:


But one doesn't generally refer to shaving of the beard in this context. Let's take the original sentence from the OP:

"duergar women do not grow beards [unlike shield/gold dwarves]".

And change it slightly to refer to things on earth:

"many European men do not grow beards [unlike men in the middle east]".

Are we seeing beardless men choose to shave or that they physically can't grow beards?

The fact of the matter is: the sentence is ambiguous. Some men of European decent(particularly nordic) literally can't grow beards; they just don't get facial hair. Right alongside them, many other men can grow rich, full beards, and choose not to, instead shaving. The statement that they "do not grow beards" works both ways.

noamineo wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:43pm:


False dichotomy. How about this (i removed the spurious "many" that you added which completely changes the meaning of the sentence)

"Chinese women do not grow beards [unlike caucasian bearded ladies in the circus]"

I agree this can still come across as ambiguous, as in not 100% certain and clearly one way or the other, but I really find it a stretch to try and argue that is equally likely to suggest that these dwarf women shave everyday.

Revaulting wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 8:38pm:

If this isn't U37, I'm gonna be pissed.

It would depend on the precise wording.
"facial hair does not grow on their (duergar women) faces"
Means that hair literally doesn't grow. Not that they cut it.

But if said "Duergar women do not grow hair on their faces", that would be ambiguous. This statement leaves room for misunderstanding whether it's by choice or by nature.
But normally you would still assume it's by nature because it makes it sound like they all do it.
And if they could grow beards, there should be at least one of them that didn't want to.

Now to address more important matters. Like what's for breakfast....