Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Effective HP Calclulation (Read 7320 times)
Sailias
Dragon Raider
***
Offline



Posts: 251
Joined: Nov 16th, 2015
Effective HP Calclulation
May 14th, 2017 at 11:28am
Print Post  
Hello all

If I wanted to calculate a character's effective HP such that the formula were useful for 99.99999% of builds, what would that be?

Here is what I have so far:

HP value * (100 + PRR reduction % / 100) *  (100 + dodge chance / 100) * (100 + incorp chance / 100) * (100 + concealment chance / 100) = rough effective HP

So for a character with 100 HP, PRR of 60 (which is 37.50% reduction), dodge of 20%, incorp chance of 10%, and blurry (20% concealment), the effective HP would be 100 * (100 + 37.50) * (100 + 22) * (100 + 10) * (100 + 20) = 100 * 1.375 * 1.22 * 1.10 * 1.20 = 221.43

Can you guys think of a better way of doing this? This is for 99.999999% of builds, I recognize there are outliers.
  

monk changes 2016 for president
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #1 - May 14th, 2017 at 3:06pm
Print Post  
Right on.

~

HP value * (100 + PRR reduction % / 100)

is an important number on its own. I generally refer to this as effective physical HP.

Back when LE shroud came out getting to the point where you were 2, rather than 1, shotted was important.

Hits to die is also very important.

Miss chances are fine assuming you can take 3-4 hits but once you're in 2 shotting territory the odd double strike or dropped heal means death.

~

Average swing to die is also useful. Its VERY hard to calculate ACs value though since it is dependent on the CR of the mob, its mob type, and whether or not it is receiving flanking. You can assume the mob misses you when it rolls a 1.

In reaper, I believe there is ALSO a behind the scenes nerf of concealment.
~
Useful stuff:

HP, Hit points
HP*(1/PRR reduction), Hits till Death
HP*(1/PRR reduction)*(1/dodge)*(1/Incorp)*(1/(Concealment))*(1/20), Average Swings till Death
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2017 at 3:07pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sailias
Dragon Raider
***
Offline



Posts: 251
Joined: Nov 16th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #2 - May 14th, 2017 at 3:11pm
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 3:06pm:
Right on.
~
Useful stuff:

HP, Hit points
HP*(1/PRR reduction), Hits till Death
HP*(1/PRR reduction)*(1/dodge)*(1/Incorp)*(1/(Concealment))*(1/20), Average Swings till Death


Awesome, thanks.
  

monk changes 2016 for president
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #3 - May 14th, 2017 at 3:13pm
Print Post  
Typo lol, this should read:
HP*(1/PRR reduction)*(1/dodge)*(1/Incorp)*(1/(Concealment))*(19/20)
  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harharharhar
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


Girthless Trolllicker

Posts: 3421
Joined: Aug 31st, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #4 - May 14th, 2017 at 10:36pm
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
Typo lol, this should read:
HP*(1/PRR reduction)*(1/dodge)*(1/Incorp)*(1/(Concealment))*(19/20)


Basically this but why isn't anyone adding in AC (*1/Miss chance of a given CR mob at a given AC)? It requires you to consider mob CR but you can just calculate the average weighted miss chance for a range of CR mobs for your AC and come up with a number for this that is easily expressed like Dodge or Concealment as a percentage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harharharhar
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


Girthless Trolllicker

Posts: 3421
Joined: Aug 31st, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #5 - May 14th, 2017 at 10:38pm
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 3:06pm:
Average swing to die is also useful. Its VERY hard to calculate ACs value though since it is dependent on the CR of the mob, its mob type, and whether or not it is receiving flanking. You can assume the mob misses you when it rolls a 1.


I think the difference between most mobs in most quests is small enough to use a wegihted average for the range of mobs. You'll always have to do a somewhat custom analysis for champs or named mobs because they have their own stats. But for trash this is fine.
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2017 at 10:38pm by harharharhar »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
hydra
Waterworks Kobold
**
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 145
Joined: Jan 28th, 2017
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #6 - May 15th, 2017 at 2:43am
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 3:06pm:
Right on.
In reaper, I believe there is ALSO a behind the scenes nerf of concealment.

I don't know what it is exactly but it definitely feels like concealment and/or dodge aren't giving their full bonuses even against non-champ, trash mobs. I'd like to do testing but this would be a serious undertaking to figure out how it scales with skulls (it also might be conditional).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SpaceGoat
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 597
Joined: Oct 14th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #7 - May 15th, 2017 at 8:10am
Print Post  
If you create a build with a few temp 100 percent dodge chances you should be able to test.

What's hard to tell is it a nerf to dodge or a boost to the mobs, or something like true strike?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SpaceGoat
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 597
Joined: Oct 14th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #8 - May 15th, 2017 at 8:11am
Print Post  
I forget the link, but there was a very good, albeit heated discussion on the main forums about prr vs hp.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #9 - May 15th, 2017 at 8:54am
Print Post  
harharharhar wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 10:38pm:
I think the difference between most mobs in most quests is small enough to use a wegihted average for the range of mobs. You'll always have to do a somewhat custom analysis for champs or named mobs because they have their own stats. But for trash this is fine.


I disagree the to-hit of a Storm horns gnoll vs assassin vs giant has a large variety.
  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SpaceGoat
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 597
Joined: Oct 14th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #10 - May 15th, 2017 at 11:21am
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 8:54am:
I disagree the to-hit of a Storm horns gnoll vs assassin vs giant has a large variety.


Percentage wise or value wise? As you get higher and higher, a 30 point to hit difference is not overly significant
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harharharhar
Epic Poster
*****
Offline


Girthless Trolllicker

Posts: 3421
Joined: Aug 31st, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #11 - May 15th, 2017 at 3:24pm
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 8:54am:
I disagree the to-hit of a Storm horns gnoll vs assassin vs giant has a large variety.


How big and at what AC?

That's the rub(bins)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #12 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:16am
Print Post  
This vaultie is naked. He has no data. Just hunches.
  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mokune
Shroud Slacker
***
Offline


Gimped Hairless Ape

Posts: 1114
Joined: Nov 16th, 2011
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #13 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:24am
Print Post  
Why the fuck is this even worth consideration?

Seems pointless.  HP are HP and when your bar is @ negative whatever you are dead.

Whether the numbers are big or small there is no way this is at all helpful in ANY fight.

Are people seriously going to like check themselves before engaging a mob and calculate how many effective HP they have?


Pffft.
  

Welcome to your sexually transmitted death sentence served in a shit-machine meat suit.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SpaceGoat
Stormreaver Piker
*
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 597
Joined: Oct 14th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #14 - May 16th, 2017 at 8:08am
Print Post  
Mokune wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 7:24am:
Why the fuck is this even worth consideration?

Seems pointless.  HP are HP and when your bar is @ negative whatever you are dead.

Whether the numbers are big or small there is no way this is at all helpful in ANY fight.

Are people seriously going to like check themselves before engaging a mob and calculate how many effective HP they have?


Pffft. 


You're smarter then that. The calculation is important because there is a limited amount of gear slots. If you could add either 20 hp or 2 prr, which is better?

Now make the question harder, 20 hp or 3 prr or 2 AC or 1 dodge?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sailias
Dragon Raider
***
Offline



Posts: 251
Joined: Nov 16th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #15 - May 16th, 2017 at 9:33am
Print Post  
Mokune wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 7:24am:
Why the fuck is this even worth consideration?

Seems pointless.  HP are HP and when your bar is @ negative whatever you are dead.

Whether the numbers are big or small there is no way this is at all helpful in ANY fight.

Are people seriously going to like check themselves before engaging a mob and calculate how many effective HP they have?


Pffft. 


I just wanted to make sure my math is right. I'm not that great at it and it's better to be absolutely sure than to be confident and not realize you're making a mistake.
  

monk changes 2016 for president
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mokune
Shroud Slacker
***
Offline


Gimped Hairless Ape

Posts: 1114
Joined: Nov 16th, 2011
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #16 - May 16th, 2017 at 1:48pm
Print Post  
SpaceGoat wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 8:08am:
You're smarter then that. The calculation is important because there is a limited amount of gear slots. If you could add either 20 hp or 2 prr, which is better?

Now make the question harder, 20 hp or 3 prr or 2 AC or 1 dodge?


'Oly effing crap that's a lot of meta nit-picking.  I can't think of any quests, chains or raids that last long enough to see any appreciable difference in time or game play or any difference at all between any of these things.

You can do vaccuum math on paper and get some numbers.  I love math.  I think it's awesome.  I really do. 

But...DDO is a not a white board of perfect balanced equations where quantified results can be qualified by real time in game observations.

Over the coarse of an EE Slaver's Chain (for instance) any benefit of any of those things you listed will be a wash.


  

Welcome to your sexually transmitted death sentence served in a shit-machine meat suit.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #17 - May 16th, 2017 at 2:17pm
Print Post  
Lets say you're farming reaper slavers base items.
They drop occasionally.

On reaper 3 you may get hit for 900 points of damage before PRR, per hit.
You step in and die in a pug and say to yourself: FUCKING I WILL SKULLFUCK MYSELF FUCK

You look and see that you were hit for 350 points four times from archers.
You want to know the parity point where you'll be able to take 6 hits on skull 3 without getting raped.

You calculate how much more defense you'd need, then see if you could fit it in.
Then jerk off in your guildies eye about your awesome effective health point pool into a pool of his tears as he gets arrow raped, cleave raped, and rat raped in the slave pits of the undercity.


  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #18 - May 16th, 2017 at 2:18pm
Print Post  
Or something.

I remember when MoD was endgame we found the amount of PRR and HP you needed to not die like a bitch.

Then they nerfed the raid.

1100 hp, 100 PRR, and silver flame pots
« Last Edit: May 16th, 2017 at 2:19pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Puppy Farmer
****
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 1429
Joined: Jan 14th, 2016
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #19 - May 16th, 2017 at 8:52pm
Print Post  
Mokune wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 1:48pm:
'Oly effing crap that's a lot of meta nit-picking.  I can't think of any quests, chains or raids that last long enough to see any appreciable difference in time or game play or any difference at all between any of these things.

You can do vaccuum math on paper and get some numbers.  I love math.  I think it's awesome.  I really do. 

But...DDO is a not a white board of perfect balanced equations where quantified results can be qualified by real time in game observations.

Over the coarse of an EE Slaver's Chain (for instance) any benefit of any of those things you listed will be a wash.




C'mon, man.  You have to know that this is the wrong approach.  Even with things that are far easier to understand DDO is an exercise in stacking advantages on advantages in order to be OP.

A player who does not understand the math behind their build could very easily make a gimp toon, and that is a truth which I believe has been present since the game was launched.  Instead of criticizing the peeps who have done the white board math you should be celebrating them.  Their work can make you suck less.  From the very simple "Is my weapon with a W critical profile and X threat range better than my weapon with a Y critical profile and Z threat range?" to the more complex questions this thread is covering.

Not that I'm saying that you suck, but a lack of knowledge about how things work is usually hand in hand with suckage.  I win a lot of board games because I play to the victory conditions instead of playing to some imagined and non-existent goal.  I have both designed games (not published, but fairly well received in my circle of gamers) and I have my name in the playtester credits of a few published and successful games.  Mostly because I can contribute exactly the kind of analysis you are denigrating here.  Math isn't hard, it is illuminating.

One could only wish that there were more Turbine/SSG employees who enjoyed working the numbers and could have headed off their various and storied missteps across the years by illuminating the ignorant masses with the cold, sharp light of math.
  

No, let me be Frank.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 8th, 2016 at 12:39pm:
I've had multiple RoSS rot just from doing the explorer points in Sands across multiple lives since it is exclusive.


Smart players know how to use buyback.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:58pm:
I will not chone.

I did what I did intentionally and while my primary purpose was not to annoy the other Vaulties, I acknowledge that it was a side effect.


Smart people don't elicit "side effects."  They understand in advance the consequences of their actions.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #20 - May 16th, 2017 at 10:39pm
Print Post  
Bonerific
  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sailias
Dragon Raider
***
Offline



Posts: 251
Joined: Nov 16th, 2015
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #21 - May 16th, 2017 at 11:52pm
Print Post  
Frank wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 8:52pm:
One could only wish that there were more Turbine/SSG employees who enjoyed working the numbers and could have headed off their various and storied missteps across the years by illuminating the ignorant masses with the cold, sharp light of math.


I can't even spell "calculation" so idk man
  

monk changes 2016 for president
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WonderfulFoppyBint
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Poooop

Posts: 5946
Location: stockholm victim of hag master
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2013
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #22 - May 17th, 2017 at 12:15am
Print Post  
Sailias wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 11:52pm:
I can't even spell "calculation" so idk man


I can spell your mom backwards.

  

OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q
Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

volt_ wrote on Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:43pm:
Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Puppy Farmer
****
Offline


I Love Drama!

Posts: 1429
Joined: Jan 14th, 2016
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #23 - May 17th, 2017 at 4:44am
Print Post  
Sailias wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 11:52pm:
I can't even spell "calculation" so idk man


C'mon!  Really?  God damnit all to the fucking Hell.

I thought that geeks were of a higher caliber these days.  But then you'd need to understand that caliber is an actual measurement system and we'd go down that rabbit hole if you were an actual geek instead of a geek who uses a GUI interface to pretend to be a geek.

Pro tip:  A geek would not just know how to use that GUI, she would know how to make it do things that it was never intended to do.  Well.

Aww, fuck...  Get off'a my lawn you fucking script kiddies!
« Last Edit: May 17th, 2017 at 4:45am by Frank »  

No, let me be Frank.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 8th, 2016 at 12:39pm:
I've had multiple RoSS rot just from doing the explorer points in Sands across multiple lives since it is exclusive.


Smart players know how to use buyback.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:58pm:
I will not chone.

I did what I did intentionally and while my primary purpose was not to annoy the other Vaulties, I acknowledge that it was a side effect.


Smart people don't elicit "side effects."  They understand in advance the consequences of their actions.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Starkjade
Completionist (i.t.p.)
******
Offline


Rogue Scholar

Posts: 7082
Location: Canadia
Joined: Aug 27th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Effective HP Calclulation
Reply #24 - May 17th, 2017 at 6:57am
Print Post  
WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:15am:
I can spell your mom backwards.


Noooo don't you'll summon her
  

Two sips from the cup of human kindness and I'm shitfaced
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint