Sergod wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 1:21pm:


I have not tested this in over 2 years. When I last tested this, it WAS true, and thrown speed was faster with blinding speed than just Haste.

5FS seems to think this is either irrelevant, or has since been changed so BS matches Haste. I cannot confirm or deny that, and as I said take BS for the utility in most cases, so if it's faster at this point that's a bonus. I'd love to go back and test this soon, but not sure when I'd have time given how little I get to actually just play.

Have you personally tested this with any rigor recently? That would be awesome if you did and could share results.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 3:01pm:


Yes it was recently tested and confirmed. No I'm not bothering to type out facts for you, because you ignore facts, and substitute your own idiocy.

Digimonk wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 4:24pm:


Thank you for the unnecessary lesson on marginal versus absolute proportions. I also made it out of 5th grade level math.

The fact of it is, everytime someone makes a build and refers to a stated benefit, like the 12% Dodge in Grandmaster Ocean stance, we don't put a giant fucking asterisk disclaiming how if you have any other form of damage mitigation it is not (in nerd voice) "technically x% as stated, derp derp" because it's fucking stupid to do that. This thing gives you 5% chance to ignore physical damage at the time of the roll against that damage. Whether or not it has penetrated any other layered defense is completely irrelevant, this thing does actually give you a 5% chance to dodge THAT damage on THAT roll.

Incrementally versus all of layered defenses is calculated on a per build/equipment/PL/situational buff level, and not relevant to talking about general feat selection.

Moreover, please tell me what a better feat to take at that level is, since that's like, a useful comment.

You get 22% attack speed vs. 15% from other haste sources. From what I have seen though, you do not get 7% more speed with shuriken, because of animation. I am not even sure what sort of increase we really get with BS, WW, RS, etc. You can take any of them away and barely notice a difference. It is such a mysterious thing to understand how weapon speed even works with the feats. I have seen tests done, and the results are between inconclusive and barely any difference. Personally, I also just prefer to have blinding speed instead of worrying about clickies, pots etc. and hey it shows 22% instead of 15% in the character sheet (so it has to be better )

As for harbinger of chaos, it is worthless in R10, and barely worth the max of 30 damage it does even in non-reaper content. It claims to scale 100% with MP and RP, but does not seem to do much even with 350 MP.

I am not sure which feat is better to take instead. I actually took pierce adamantine for golems instead of +5 hide feat for lvl 26, and maybe cold iron would be a choice instead of harbinger of chaos (which I currently have). I am using the vampire slayer augment for silver. Since there is rarely an arti around to help me break DR, and I don't want to switch into lesser weapons, I don't think it is a terrible idea.

NOTE: You can do something like Aborea with 3 of the piercing types. They will carry over and stay on shuriken, but as soon as you unequip shuriken once for any reason, they go away.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 7:40pm:

Well, there's no an "anti whiny asshole" feat so you're out of luck and options.  For someone who claims to be "all about the maths",  you sure do turn into a little bitch when someone says something about math on your claims.

I know it's hard for you to understand, but everything isn't always about you and your precious, overly inflated ego.  Considering that even if you actually did consider the math before you posted your mathematically or grammatically incorrect statement, other people may not have and thus, the explanation would have benefited them if they read it.

So tell us mister math whiz, based on your statement "Whereas 5% overall more effective Dodge/Dodge Cap from Elusive Target", which part do you not get?  That the 5% from that feat is effectively just 1-2% (1% with level-effective AC) if it gets checked last or what overall means? 

Because if you understand the math, as you claimed after the fact, overall means the complete opposite of what you intended.  So even if you do get the math, you're still an idiot for using words when you don't understand their meanings.

Personally, I'd go with Dire Charge, Wind through the Trees, Guardian Angel, or even Dreamscape over 1% extra avoidance.  Any of those would be more useful.

Sergod wrote on Feb 14^th, 2018 at 9:06pm:


Huh? Did I once say your build was bad or demand vids from you? Our builds are nearly identical, if yours is bad then mine is bad too and vice versa.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 11:46am:


That is something worth considering.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 11:46am:


I'm going to disagree here. This is kind of similar to Digi's flawed argument against Elusive Target. It seems not worth it in relative terms, but in absolute terms, every point of PRR still provides +1% "effective HP", both the 1st and the 241st, and beyond.

PRR = 100/(100+rating) % mitigation, so every 100 points will double the base number of hits it takes to kill you.

Suppose you have 1000 hp and are getting hit for 100 damage.

0 PRR = 100/(100+0) = 1 = 10 hits to kill
100 PRR = 100/(100+100) = .5 = 20 hits to kill
200 PRR = 100/(100+200) = .33 = 30 hits to kill
300 PRR = 100/(100+300) = .25 = 40 hits to kill
400 PRR = 100/(100+400) = .2 = 50 hits to kill
and so on...

So the only time PRR could be a "waste" would be in conjunction with DR if incoming damage is reduced to zero, (obviously that isn't going to happen on reaper though.) It could still be "not worth it" if the damage were above zero but you don't take enough damage throughout a quest to ever need any healing, but that obviously isn't happening on reaper either.

Sergod wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 1:21pm:


No.

Digimonk wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 4:24pm:


No.

.56*.5*.9*.95 = .95*.9*.5*.56

DragonCrotch wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 7:52pm:

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 8:17pm:


Yes. Alacrity/haste/blinding speed/armor of speed et al only affect the "throw" motion, not the "reload" motion. The confusion arises because the descriptions are inconsistent. Spells like Haste and armor of speed are "secretly" boosted to 22% on ranged to account for the fact that they do not apply to the reload. The new dev trend is to state the modified value though, so even though Blinding Speed does the same thing, it has the accurate description. Alacrity items (including Sapphire Sting, etc) follow Blinding Speed's model and give the listed value, but they only go up to 15%, so they suck for ranged. To add even more confusion, there was a short while when the Haste spell was nerfed to only give the stated amount, then they changed it back a few updates later.

For even more lulz, there is a new "haste" effect available on filigree, and no one is sure what it actually does or what it's supposed to do.

DragonCrotch wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 7:52pm:


I concur.

DragonCrotch wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 7:52pm:


Not sure what you're trying to say here. PM me?

Digimonk wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 8:39pm:


No.

DragonCrotch wrote on Feb 17^th, 2018 at 12:38pm:


I have it from Vistani.

No, the order does not matter it's .2394 whether you multiply it forwards, backwards, upside down, or sideways.

...

Avoidance actually has increasing returns though. Unlike PRR (which merely has linear returns), the last 5% avoidance is more valuable than the first 5% avoidance. Even though relatively it seems to be .252 vs .2394, each additional 1% avoidance is more than just 1% more "effective hp". To illustrate via the same paradigm as I did PRR, assume 1000 hp and 100 damage hits:

Nothing = 0% avoidance = 1 = 10 attacks to kill
5 dodge = 5% avoidance = .95 = 10.53 attacks to kill
Dusk = 10% avoidance = .9 = 11.1 attacks to kill
Blurry = 20% avoidance = .8 = 12.5 attacks to kill
Displacement = 50% avoidance = .5 = 20 attacks to kill
Displacement + 44 dodge = 72% avoidance = .28 = 35.7 attacks to kill
Displacement + 44 dodge + 10 ghostly = 74.8% avoidance = .252 = 39.7 attacks to kill
Displacement + 44 dodge + 10 ghostly + Elusive Target = 76.1 % avoidance = .2394 = 41.8 attacks to kill

As you can see, the last 5% is about 4x more valuable than the first 5%.

Digimonk wrote on Feb 17^th, 2018 at 8:56pm:


So first of all, I made a TYPO, and the feat description is every 12 SECONDS, which is why the feat is so fucking terrible. If it was every second, it would actually be a great feat.

None of the feats you listed are better than Elusive Target. They aren't even fucking close.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 6:41pm:

Awww... somebody's all spun up and spamming.  That's cute.

You were wrong either mathematically or grammatically and nothing 5FS has said changes that. 

The chance to be missed due to Elusive Targets is NOT 5% overall (which is what you said) unless you have 0 sources of other miss chances.

If you have 50% Concealment, the 5% from ET is 5% of the remaining 50% or in other words, 2.5% overall.  It gets worse the more sources and amounts of miss chance you have total.

Miss %      # of Checks      Misses      Possible Hits Remaining
50%              100             50             50
44%              50               22             28
25%              28               7               21
5%                21               1              20

1 out of 100 is 1% overall.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 8:10pm:

Nope.  It's so fun when people state 100% wrong things, and then die on the hill that the person who is right was wrong. I am just quoting this for posterity/emphasis/to embarrass you.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 11:46am:


Overall:  1.taking everything into account.

Taking everything (all miss chances) into account, it's an overall increase of 1%.  Even if you want to be literal and just consider dodge as you stated, with 44% dodge, adding a 5% check after dodge is an extra ~2-3% overall.

Digimonk wrote on Feb 19^th, 2018 at 7:27pm:


This is extremely bad math.

The only number that matters here for calculating the efficiency of Elusive Target is # of Checks 21, misses 1, probable hits remaining 20, which = 5%.

harharharhar wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:32am:

Sure, if you're a retard who doesn't know what the word overall means.   Congrats, retard.

The math is correct even if you don't like it.  Your grammar in the original statement is another matter entirely.

You're the dipshit who qualified your original statement with the word "overall", then went batshit butthurt when I pointed out that 5% overall was incorrect.  Sure, it's 5% of whatever hit chances are left after the other avoidance mechanisms are checked but that happens to be the opposite of "overall".

Adding Elusive Target to a build with 44% dodge, 50% concealment, and 25% incorporeal bonuses will let you avoid one extra attack out of every 100.  That's 1% overall.

While 5FS' HP equivalent value extrapolations are interesting and not what I would have expected, they also fail to take a in-game context into account, which is the problem with focusing on spreadsheet DDO.  First, as you point out, 10 hits to death is not realistic at end-game, high-difficulty LE/Reaper content.  It's more like 1-3 hits.  Second, it assumes no heals between hits.  Third, it ignores the fact that the main priority when actually playing the game is not getting one-shotted and living long enough between the hits for heals to land. 

It's number three in particular that lessens the relative value of another 1% overall avoidance versus PRR when your avoidance is already that high.