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Bigjunk
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Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Jul 16th, 2021 at 1:46pm
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I don't play as much as I used to and I've mostly been playing my two melees, my caster has been a wizard probably for a year.

My DPS isn't that fucked in U50.   My shitty tempest is only losing a few seconds on the kobolds, can still solo the same shit I can on live, etc . . . did test my barbarian.

DC caster is fine, DCs are actually going up relative to the saves.

So . . . I keep seeing shit on the motherboard about nukers being fucked.   But I don't have one and am completely ignorant as to their current state.

How fucked are they?
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #1 - Jul 16th, 2021 at 2:38pm
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Bigjunk wrote on Jul 16th, 2021 at 1:46pm:
I keep seeing shit on the motherboard.


Yes.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #2 - Jul 16th, 2021 at 3:41pm
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Bigjunk wrote on Jul 16th, 2021 at 1:46pm:
I don't play as much as I used to and I've mostly been playing my two melees, my caster has been a wizard probably for a year.

My DPS isn't that fucked in U50.   My shitty tempest is only losing a few seconds on the kobolds, can still solo the same shit I can on live, etc . . . did test my barbarian.

DC caster is fine, DCs are actually going up relative to the saves.

So . . . I keep seeing shit on the motherboard about nukers being fucked.   But I don't have one and am completely ignorant as to their current state.

How fucked are they?


Already this year nukers have lost spellpower and had nerfs on key DPS spells
(Alchemist got fucked hard).  Meteor Swarm had its cooldown increased and
its MCL reduced.

U50 will deliver a further 33% reduction in spellpower and spell critical chance
from equipment bonuses.  The effect of this is multiplicative.  Reasonable
calcs I've seen on Discord put optimized melee down 20 - 25% DPS and
optimized nukers down ~40%.  They are supposedly nerfing mob HP down
25% in Legendary content (T2 only I think though plans seem to change
every 5 minutes).
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #3 - Jul 22nd, 2021 at 10:56pm
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There are three major sources of melee / ranged power.

1. Epic Destiny cores
2. Filagrees
3. Enhancement Trees

None of these are being touched in any significant way by the stat squish.  You're losing a little bit of doublestrike/doubleshot, and some melee/ranged power from set bonuses.

There is one primary source of spellpower, items.  Items are what are being nerfed in the stat squish.

Melee/Ranged crit is primarily controlled by the weapon itself, feats, and enhancement trees.  Again, none are touched in the item revamp.

Spell crit chance primarily comes from....items.  Impacted by the stat squish.

The gap between single target melee / ranged DPS and spell DPS is about to get much wider.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2021 at 12:21am
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Bigjunk wrote on Jul 16th, 2021 at 1:46pm:
I don't play as much as I used to and I've mostly been playing my two melees, my caster has been a wizard probably for a year.

My DPS isn't that fucked in U50.   My shitty tempest is only losing a few seconds on the kobolds, can still solo the same shit I can on live, etc . . . did test my barbarian.

DC caster is fine, DCs are actually going up relative to the saves.

So . . . I keep seeing shit on the motherboard about nukers being fucked.   But I don't have one and am completely ignorant as to their current state.

How fucked are they?


I went from 100% sonic spell crit on my meme feylock build down to 67% crit.

Essentially; everyone that isn't a Fire Savant (Particularly a tiefling at that) or any sort of Bombadier is about to get their shit slapped into oblivion.

The double dip nerf of losing about 33% of our spell crit chance and 33% of our spellpower means that every other nuker's getting a swift kick to the johnson.

While Fire Savants will continue to swing their dick around because while spell power and crit definitely help their DPS. They've still got great base die and multiple projectiles per spell cast. So meteor and vial will continue to play relatively unaffected.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2021 at 12:23pm
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Like others said, it's the double dip between spell crit and spell damage, while you still need to minmax stats to maintain DCs.

Fire will still be king when it comes to DPS.  DC/CC casters are also better than ever.

The ED Revamps state at release will dictate the future when it comes to casters.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #6 - Oct 4th, 2021 at 10:37pm
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Linker wrote on Sep 23rd, 2021 at 12:23pm:
Like others said, it's the double dip between spell crit and spell damage, while you still need to minmax stats to maintain DCs.

Fire will still be king when it comes to DPS.  DC/CC casters are also better than ever.

The ED Revamps state at release will dictate the future when it comes to casters.


Looking at the second lama preview/first for U51; it feels like Fire is going to not only be the king of DPS, but also the king of utility.

Primal Avatar is a WTF decision balance wise as to giving Fire both extra nukes but baking AoE cocoon into the ability itself. Not to mention they gain other healing abilities later in the tree.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #7 - Nov 3rd, 2021 at 6:09pm
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So Fire Draconic / Exalted / Primal fire nuker is probably it.

Otherwise you can grab the old shiradi stuns and not give up much DPS.

Question is, does new ED flexibility allow you to change the base into something like Tiefling Warlock or Fvs.

Did anyone bother to test how good is minmaxed tiefling healing? Can you tank?
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2021 at 10:10pm by Linker »  
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Edrein
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #8 - Nov 14th, 2021 at 10:53pm
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Linker wrote on Nov 3rd, 2021 at 6:09pm:
So Fire Draconic / Exalted / Primal fire nuker is probably it.

Otherwise you can grab the old shiradi stuns and not give up much DPS.

Question is, does new ED flexibility allow you to change the base into something like Tiefling Warlock or Fvs.

Did anyone bother to test how good is minmaxed tiefling healing? Can you tank?



Ended up TRing into a tiefling fire aura-lock. I've been able to tank a few raids on LH without actually wearing tanky gear. My Light, Pos, and Fire are all sitting at 700+ each. Using EA angel mantle instead of the US mantles.

If I actually spent the time to min-max and grab tank gear. It'd likely be fine.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #9 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 1:13am
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Edrein wrote on Nov 14th, 2021 at 10:53pm:
Ended up TRing into a tiefling fire aura-lock. I've been able to tank a few raids on LH without actually wearing tanky gear. My Light, Pos, and Fire are all sitting at 700+ each. Using EA angel mantle instead of the US mantles.

If I actually spent the time to min-max and grab tank gear. It'd likely be fine.


I was just in an R1 group with a first life Dragonborn sorc. Not a new player. For a playstyle that is meant to be underneath the nerf hammer, this guy had no trouble zerging through just like in the old days.
  
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Edrein
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #10 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:13am
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Shinyshoes wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 1:13am:
I was just in an R1 group with a first life Dragonborn sorc. Not a new player. For a playstyle that is meant to be underneath the nerf hammer, this guy had no trouble zerging through just like in the old days.


The issue is Fire as a whole is over represented in the game as a whole. The EDs conflated that issue with the changes as Primal and Exalted Angel give fire casters all the self sustain.

That being said; I imagine you could pull off solid Carceri or GoO locks at the moment.

Abyss still can't stand on its own because of the refusal to let the Magus Mantle heal while undead sadly.

Feylock isn't bad but Fatesinger doesn't really boost them the way it used to. Celestial is ok, never really good or bad just a middling ground pact. Until we see the Arti destiny expect Celestial to remain a niche pick.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #11 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 12:01pm
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Edrein wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 3:13am:
The issue is Fire as a whole is over represented in the game as a whole. The EDs conflated that issue with the changes as Primal and Exalted Angel give fire casters all the self sustain.


The real grit is meteor swarm is just objectively the best spell. When you send a meteor swarm down the way, the first meteor strips the immunity, and the rest deal damage. You can also arc it, a process that's intuitive and extremely effective(how many times has your icebolt been stopped by a table? Yeah).

No other element has a spell with the same equivalent. They tried to address this by adding Ice Berg, Acid Well, and Thunderstroke... except these lack this very important immunity stripping element. So if they added some kind of Lightning Storm or Ice Barrage or something that was effectively just a different elemental version of Meteor Swarm I'd be all in.
  
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #12 - Nov 20th, 2021 at 12:53pm
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Edit: I should be more silent about this, every time we said how casters can be fun they got nerfed. Maybe PM me for more details
« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2021 at 6:58pm by Linker »  
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noamineo
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #13 - Nov 20th, 2021 at 4:52pm
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What are all the various sources for cool down reduction? Trying to make sure I've got them all -

-Arcane Alactrity
-Draconic filigree
  
I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Linker
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Re: Explain to me like I'm retarded why nukers are fucked
Reply #14 - Nov 20th, 2021 at 6:58pm
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There's some more - draconic ED, etc. Look at my last edit though.
  
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