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Data Collection Proposal (Read 11444 times)

Grace Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 5851 Joined: Aug 4^th, 2011 Gender:	Data Collection Proposal Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:04am	Print Post
	I keep asking for evidence in the beta forums that death spells are so incredibly OP, knowing that I will get none. So I'm wondering if we should gather our own. I propose getting together a mixed static group of six players, including a PM. Let's choose three epics - maybe tide, last stand, and another one? - that are fairly varied from each other and hit them multiple times together. Then we collate the data on kills, deaths, etc. I'd say a total of 10 times would be sufficient, though we can post preliminary data after 5. The intent is to play as we normally would - no holding back. I'm tired of people's unfounded perceptions determining game mechanics. I'm happy to bring my rogue to this group, she's done the most epics, can hold her own, and I'm comfortable with her. (I'm on Khyber, if anyone didn't know.) Anyone else want to join in? You'd need to be willing to run these epics several times over the next couple weeks. I don't want to change up the group composition during it, because that will skew the data.

	JDollar wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 5:25pm: she's Kmack's property Quote: You're obviously important to the community.� And not just because your skin is so supple and soft and smells like honeysuckle and friendship. JDollar wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 2:15am: To put in DnD terms Grace is a CR 60 EE Ball Busting Bitch
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Munkenmo Epic Poster Offline Posts: 4363 Location: A land under down under Joined: Nov 10^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #1 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:50am	Print Post
	run von 3, last stand and sentinals tower. the difference in the way the pale master plays with and without having to overcome mob spell resistance after just the one run through is all you should need to see. The devs have a mechanic that only effects spells, they're releasing an expansion with epic drow who should have innate spell resistance, and yet here they are, being fucking retarded worrying about old shit with crap loot, that no body is going to run anymore anyway. Give epic drow spell resistance, leave epics as is alone. See how it pans out between now and the enhancement revamp. It's not rocket science, i've no idea why they're making life so hard on themselves.

	So you want to know about an exploit? PM Epoch For Details. Or, in case you don't already know, OnePercenter controls the Exploits Board. Lastly, if you're truly desperate, Vendui Tells Everyone
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Blank Ex Member	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #2 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:36am	Print Post
	Depending on times, I could bring Smrti as a DPS/tank type. I'd say the quests run should have a bit more variation, such as: Sentinels Tower (no SR) Offering of Blood (Stupid high SR + Urgency of mission) VoN3 (Stupid high SR without the extra Urgency) Last Stand (More Stupid SR, this time needing to move with coordination and some tactics) Any epic that requires a sense or urgency or time limit, but without the drow from OOB. Epic Devil Assault (for funsies) We'd need a maxed out PM, another Wizzy, AM with either a Necro focus or w/e, a good DC rogue, a maxed out FvS, and then I guess me, or maybe a high WIS monk to test out QP. This could show us a lot.


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Grace Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 5851 Joined: Aug 4^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #3 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:41am	Print Post
	I'm keeping it to three max. People have lives and don't want to commit to running an epic train almost every night. Tide is good because of the drow, Last Stand is a good mob blowout. VoN3 is kinda long, maybe? I've only run it once on epic because I don't really need stuff out of there. I'd rather grab another shorter epic that will be decently representative, just out of respect for people's time. I also want to keep it to ONE necro-focused PM. Other casters are fine too, but if there is more than one necro-focused toon, it dilutes the data.
	« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:42am by Grace »
	JDollar wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 5:25pm: she's Kmack's property Quote: You're obviously important to the community.� And not just because your skin is so supple and soft and smells like honeysuckle and friendship. JDollar wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 2:15am: To put in DnD terms Grace is a CR 60 EE Ball Busting Bitch
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Epoch Alaskan Ice Hole Offline Epochalypse Posts: 10377 Location: Frozen Tundra Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #4 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:49am	Print Post
	You could just say, it doesn't really matter. Turbine doesn't care what information you come up with. They suck at playing their own game, why the fuck would they be any good at making changes to it?

	OnePercenter wrote on May 15^th, 2014 at 9:41am: I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.� #epochsfamiliarFTW Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:09am: It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity. Even against donuts.
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Grace Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 5851 Joined: Aug 4^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #5 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:54am	Print Post
	Point is, I don't think they need to make the changes they are proposing. The assumption and claims are that PMs are so incredibly and horribly OP just by virtue of owning instadeath spells that those spells need to be nerfed, and nerfed hard. I don't thik that's actually the case. Did you see what the proposals were?

	JDollar wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 5:25pm: she's Kmack's property Quote: You're obviously important to the community.� And not just because your skin is so supple and soft and smells like honeysuckle and friendship. JDollar wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 2:15am: To put in DnD terms Grace is a CR 60 EE Ball Busting Bitch
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AtomicMew Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 2073 Joined: Jan 12^th, 2011	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #6 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:16am	Print Post
	There was a thread posted a while ago with a screenshot of EDA where a mid-geared PM wizard outkilled 5 other non-caster members from revenants/ER or some other such high end guilds. That's how it is. I have a PM who is only moderately geared and only 2nd life, and I guarantee that in EDA at least, as long as I don't have to provide CC, I'll out-kill every other non-caster in the group. Casters are definitely overpowered and I don't understand how people can come to any other conclusion, unless it's just out of inexperience.


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aDifferentHandle Abbot Raider Offline omg, that's the funky shit Posts: 996 Joined: Aug 30^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #7 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:39am	Print Post
	I don't know how often eCoF is run on your server, but at mine, 4 PM, 1 Rogue (for the traps, because most wizzies dont like to splash), 1 FVS is a pretty common party composition. When running epics, there are usually two fundamental questions: Will another melee be able to outkill the rogue? Will the rogue be able to outkill the wizard?
	« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:41am by aDifferentHandle »
	That's not opinion, that's science. And science is one cold hearted bitch with a 14 inch strap on.
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Blank Ex Member	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #8 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 7:21am	Print Post
	Grace wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 3:41am: I'm keeping it to three max. People have lives and don't want to commit to running an epic train almost every night. Tide is good because of the drow, Last Stand is a good mob blowout. VoN3 is kinda long, maybe? I've only run it once on epic because I don't really need stuff out of there. I'd rather grab another shorter epic that will be decently representative, just out of respect for people's time. I also want to keep it to ONE necro-focused PM. Other casters are fine too, but if there is more than one necro-focused toon, it dilutes the data. I understand not wanting a long, drawn-out thing, but that's kinda the kicker. It's hard to get a good amount of data without doing it all the way drawn out. If you were limit it to 3, I'd suggest doing 4 instead right off the bat. eOOB for the fast pace AND Drow mobs. eDA for the Mid-SR devils and decent pacing. eLast Stand for the non-SR Sahagin and decent pacing. eVon3 for the slow pace and Hihg-SR mobs.


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Epoch Alaskan Ice Hole Offline Epochalypse Posts: 10377 Location: Frozen Tundra Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #9 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 7:45am	Print Post
	Fact of the matter is, a good caster will always outkill a good melee. A great caster will always outkill a great melee. Take a great caster and stick it with noobs, and will have all the kills. The thing is, casters are supposed to be that way. It is how D&D is designed. Those who have access to powers not of this world are more powerful then people who have to rely on the world in a more physical sense. Which, if you really think about it, makes perfect fucking sense. Casters are supposed to be the endgame, melee are just for looks.

	OnePercenter wrote on May 15^th, 2014 at 9:41am: I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.� #epochsfamiliarFTW Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:09am: It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity. Even against donuts.
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sweez Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 764 Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #10 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:01am	Print Post
	Quote: Sentinels Tower (no SR) Last Stand (More Stupid SR, this time needing to move with coordination and some tactics) And you wonder why people don't take you seriously Plenty of drow in sentinels tower, and if anything in stand has SR it's completely gimp


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sweez Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 764 Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #11 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:03am	Print Post
	AtomicMew wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:16am: There was a thread posted a while ago with a screenshot of EDA where a mid-geared PM wizard outkilled 5 other non-caster members from revenants/ER or some other such high end guilds. If you wanted to specifically design a quest in a way to let instakill casters absolutely dominate the killcount, you'd pretty much design it like DA Thing is, a lot of them are almost completely useless while the orange devils are spawning hehe


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sweez Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 764 Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #12 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:05am	Print Post
	aDifferentHandle wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:39am: I don't know how often eCoF is run on your server, but at mine, 4 PM, 1 Rogue (for the traps, because most wizzies dont like to splash), 1 FVS is a pretty common party composition. Why the fuck do they need a rogue? Do PMs on your server dump insightful reflexes?


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sweez Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 764 Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #13 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:08am	Print Post
	Epoch wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 7:45am: Fact of the matter is, a good caster will always outkill a good melee.� A great caster will always outkill a great melee.� Take a great caster and stick it with noobs, and will have all the kills. The thing is, casters are supposed to be that way.� It is how D&D is designed.� Those who have access to powers not of this world are more powerful then people who have to rely on the world in a more physical sense.� Which, if you really think about it, makes perfect fucking sense. Casters are supposed to be the endgame, melee are just for looks. What he said, plus, in the name of science, take 4 random puglet PMs, and then throw in Groan on his monk or barb, and compare the killcounts I haven't seen anyone claim that heavily TRed, immaculately geared, intelligently played casterss aren't insanely powerful (as they should be, as epoch said, unless they want to scratch off the last remaining semblance to d&d), but any of those 3 (ok maybe not the TR part, everyone's TRing these days) automatically disqualifies 99,99% of the playerbase


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Zhalian Dragon Raider Offline Drama is best served fresh. Posts: 280 Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2012 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #14 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:23am	Print Post
	That's great for a book or a movie or a pnp game where the DM can intelligently modify things to give everyone something to do.� For an MMO its shit, you can't have 1 class that's a god in a game with multiple people wanting to play multiple classes.� They need to increase the power of the other classes though, not nerf casters and that's where they are fucking up.
	« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:38am by Zhalian »
	Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die. - Mel Brooks
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popejubal Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline fnord Posts: 6364 Location: Argo Joined: Aug 6^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #15 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:35am	Print Post
	http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4510003#post4510003 This post makes me sad. It appears that Eladrin actually believes all of the nonsense about Pale Masters being able to walk into a room, gather all of the epic aggro (with no danger to themselves) and just hit one button to kill everything. Especially his insane belief that "Extremely well geared UberCasters can "play through" the debuff." How the fuck are even UberCasters going to "play through" a -20 to their necro DC's when the -20 only ticks down one point every 15 seconds? And I mention -20 thinking of even just eSnitch. Killing the trash in the first room and then the mephits and the oozes/rats. If you somehow manage to insta-kill all the trash in that quest (which you won't because of the DC debuf) You'll be at -20 before you even get to the first shrine even with the 1 point per 15 seconds recovery. And somehow Eladrin thinks that they'll just "play through".

	fnord
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popejubal Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline fnord Posts: 6364 Location: Argo Joined: Aug 6^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #16 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:44am	Print Post
	Holy fuck, it's worse than I thought. I went back and re-read it. -2 DC per kill. Looks like Wail can just come right off the hotbar entirely.

	fnord
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popejubal Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline fnord Posts: 6364 Location: Argo Joined: Aug 6^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #17 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:45am	Print Post
	sweez wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 8:05am: Why the fuck do they need a rogue? Do PMs on your server dump insightful reflexes? The rogue is there to disable traps for the FvS.

	fnord
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Epoch Alaskan Ice Hole Offline Epochalypse Posts: 10377 Location: Frozen Tundra Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #18 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:07pm	Print Post
	I think the decision is pretty easy, just fucking quit palemasters. I am going to tr mine back into a sorc. Fuck that. A negative hit to my dc on every successful cast? Turbine gets stupider, unsurprisingly. I can only imagine how fucking buggy that is going to be. They can't even make a damn ladder and they are trying to implement a "necro only" spell dc massive nerf? It is mazing they think they can actually pull it off.

	OnePercenter wrote on May 15^th, 2014 at 9:41am: I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.� #epochsfamiliarFTW Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:09am: It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity. Even against donuts.
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Grace Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 5851 Joined: Aug 4^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #19 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 1:22pm	Print Post
	Yes, a decently geared palemaster will usually outkill party members. Any caster will. The question is more by how much. Is it a normal amount or a gamebreaking amount? That's what I'm looking for.

	JDollar wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 5:25pm: she's Kmack's property Quote: You're obviously important to the community.� And not just because your skin is so supple and soft and smells like honeysuckle and friendship. JDollar wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 2:15am: To put in DnD terms Grace is a CR 60 EE Ball Busting Bitch
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Eladiun Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Two Time Loser Posts: 8398 Location: Rhode Island, USA Joined: Jun 17^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #20 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:02pm	Print Post
	popejubal wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:44am: Holy fuck, it's worse than I thought.� I went back and re-read it. -2 DC per kill.� Looks like Wail can just come right off the hotbar entirely. It would if there were actually more than 4 level 9 spells worth a shit.

	Nevynn wrote on Nov 18^th, 2010 at 11:38pm: Anybody coming to this board expecting anything more sophisticated than a dick joke had better get used to disappointment. Calvet wrote on Oct 20^th, 2011 at 12:18pm: I just got that impression after you spent 13 pages calling out eladiun for being an interwebs bully when anyone who's been posting on here already knew that.� I mean, he's proud of it and hardly tries to hide that at all. Quote: Eladiun is an awful person
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rest One Man Wolfpack Offline Posts: 7223 Joined: Aug 13^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #21 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 10:34pm	Print Post
	What blows my mind is how many times they've pushed back the enhancement pass because they're afraid of fucking everything up, and they drop this shit on us less than 3 weeks away from this massive change to everything? Wow. Just wow.


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Hordo High Rabbi Offline Le Douchebag Posts: 2405 Location: Cordova, Tennessee Joined: Jun 30^th, 2009 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #22 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 10:35pm	Print Post
	Eladiun wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:02pm: It would if there were actually more than 4 level 9 spells worth a shit. You know you want Summon Hot Potato IX, maximized and empowered it comes loaded, dump empowered and it loses the bacon bits...

	I am the Rabbi, goo goo g'Jew! Who doesn't <3 Gornn? GORNN II 4:3:17 - For Gornn sent not Hordo into the world to save the party; but that the party through him might be wiped. [QUOTE=404error;4155294]Hordo I don't want to steal you from these forums because your almost an icon here. ;p [/quote]
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popejubal Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline fnord Posts: 6364 Location: Argo Joined: Aug 6^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #23 - Jun 9^th, 2012 at 11:03pm	Print Post
	Eladiun wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 6:02pm: It would if there were actually more than 4 level 9 spells worth a shit. I'd probably leave it on my spell list and just take it off the hotbars entirely. There are other spells that I've done that to. I took one spell off (don't even remember which one) so that I could have a spot on my one "easy to reach" hotbar for Merfolks Blessing just because Merfolks is funny and I almost never cast that other spell.

	fnord
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Rastelin Titan Demolisher Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 305 Joined: Jan 3^rd, 2011	Re: Data Collection Proposal Reply #24 - Jun 10^th, 2012 at 3:06am	Print Post
	I think this is the image that was being referenced earlier in the thread. It's a bit different than what was originally said (my PM is near max gear), but you can clearly see a descent from Ayspam (with the highest DC's), to me (2nd lowest), to Clean on Warrwitch (3rd highest: he's splashed 2 monk). I stand by what I said before: Rastelin wrote on Nov 29^th, 2011 at 7:46pm: There's a huge difference between a well geared and well played pm and a bad one. A well geared and decently played PM will beat out much better players in the kill count easily. There's a reason that the 3 casters in this have the highest kill counts, and it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Larv/Groan are bad players (both are far superior to me). This was the first in a whole series of epics that nick/clean/I ran; in all of them, I came out 25%+ ahead of him in the kill counts. I guarantee you that any epic I run on my PM and you on a melee, you will be outkilled by a factor of at least 2-1. FVS and clerics can come close but the simple fact is that a wail/circle spam will outkill a melee any day. PMs are very much superior to melee right now, and I think huanting is a good idea, it just needs to be toned down. -1 every kill, max 10, ticks down 1 every 6 seconds. You can wail whenever it's off at no penalty, or you can suck up a DC drop and do more.
	« Last Edit: Jun 10^th, 2012 at 3:10am by Rastelin »

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