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aDifferentHandle
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TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Nov 18th, 2013 at 8:38am
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I want to TR my pure rogue into something with a bit more raw damage, and I'm not entirely sure what's the best option for that.

She has some CitW weapons (Mornh, 2xAgony, 2xBalizarde, 1xPinion) and a bunch of other named stuff.

I don't like Barb, and I don't want to go Unarmed. Any suggestions?

I was thinking of 13 Rog/6Ran/1 Fgt Elf Tempest with OC, PBS and IC:Ranged using Balizarde and for Manyshot goodness Pinion, but I'm quite open to suggestions.
  
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Munkenmo
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 1:02pm
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do you need the feat?

If not 1 fvs for rejuv cucoon may be a better split.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 1:30pm
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I'm planning to take the OC line (PA, Cleave, GCleave, OC) as well as some feats to increase ranged damage (PBS, maybe IC:Ranged, Combat Archery), as well as ISA. In addition to GTWF and IC:Pierce, which I plan to take on heroic levels as well, which makes the feats pretty tight. A blue bar is obtainable with items and I won't have the feat for EmpHeal, and I guess that the devotion from DWS will be suffient.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #3 - Nov 18th, 2013 at 7:14pm
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This is my TWF DPS guy with twin Nightmares. Also rocks with a fully upgraded Pinion. The PRR is a bit low but he's still awesome. Thinking about TRing him into an actual Bladeforged though for the Reconstruct.
  
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Reply #4 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 12:48am
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I'm currently running a 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 monk. 100% offhand proc, 42% doublestrike. He's a lot of fun in shadowdancer. Centered dex build in grandmaster wind stance using dual upgraded celestias, dual neg level slotted epic midnights and i have some sweet ES challenge shortswords with neg level on them also. Fully upgraded pinion for manyshot, and the zen archery to stay centered.

He spits out pretty decent DPS. He could use a bit more survivability, and his assassinate DC sucks (missing 7 levels of rogue), but I'm pretty happy with him. Just juggling gear at the moment, and finishing capping all his destines (100k left in DI and all of magister to go).

Strongly considering 3x past lives for 9% more doublestrike. Not quite sure if it's worth 18 million xp though.

If you wanted to do balizarde instead of celestia, it's still a great template. And you'll be able to afford OC instead of monk stances. Go str though. Dex is alright for me because the feats were too tight to get OC since I wanted to go grandmaster of forms. If I didn't do that, str all the way with OC.

But I'm terrible at builds, so take my build advice with a very large grain of salt.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #5 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 1:39am
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rest wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 12:48am:
I'm currently running a 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 monk. 100% offhand proc, 42% doublestrike. He's a lot of fun in shadowdancer. Centered dex build in grandmaster wind stance using dual upgraded celestias, dual neg level slotted epic midnights and i have some sweet ES challenge shortswords with neg level on them also. Fully upgraded pinion for manyshot, and the zen archery to stay centered.

He spits out pretty decent DPS. He could use a bit more survivability, and his assassinate DC sucks (missing 7 levels of rogue), but I'm pretty happy with him. Just juggling gear at the moment, and finishing capping all his destines (100k left in DI and all of magister to go).

Strongly considering 3x past lives for 9% more doublestrike. Not quite sure if it's worth 18 million xp though.

If you wanted to do balizarde instead of celestia, it's still a great template. And you'll be able to afford OC instead of monk stances. Go str though. Dex is alright for me because the feats were too tight to get OC since I wanted to go grandmaster of forms. If I didn't do that, str all the way with OC.

But I'm terrible at builds, so take my build advice with a very large grain of salt.


I just switched my main twf over to balizardes tonight.  8/6/6 like Arkat's but a human.  Honestly, I was not impressed.  I went that way so that I could take better advantage of Celestia's I have as boss beaters/dr breakers.

Pretty sure I'm going back to twin nightmares tomorrow, dropping khopesh for IC piece to use with the Celestia's.

My gf runs a similar build to what rest mentioned.  Celestia's are pretty impressive.  I'm pretty sure I'd run them over the dual balizardes, just not over the dual nightmares.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #6 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 2:01am
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Celestia is pretty shitty weapon on toon without significant sneak attack.
For a long time I tried dual Mornhs, dual Celestias and Balizardes on stalwart, later kensei.
It's just flashy regular shortsword, can't compete with better crit profile weapons on whatever "classic" high str build.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #7 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:00am
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LordPiglet wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 1:39am:
I just switched my main twf over to balizardes tonight.  8/6/6 like Arkat's but a human.  Honestly, I was not impressed.  I went that way so that I could take better advantage of Celestia's I have as boss beaters/dr breakers.

Pretty sure I'm going back to twin nightmares tomorrow, dropping khopesh for IC piece to use with the Celestia's.

My gf runs a similar build to what rest mentioned.  Celestia's are pretty impressive.  I'm pretty sure I'd run them over the dual balizardes, just not over the dual nightmares. 


This is an interesting input. I am currently Tring so can't test myself, but on paper dual balizardes on a centered kensei with 13-20 / x3 crit profile totally trump nightmares as far as raw dps is concerned. Is the lifestealing effect that significant even after the nerf?

I have 2x Nightmares, Balizardes, Celestias. (thanks to raidboxes). I was considering dual nights for my final life, but then U20 happened and I decided to go for dual Balizardes. Maybe I should reconsider... [Build will be 8/6/6 centered kensei w/ ranged component]
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #8 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:43am
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Thanks for your input, everyone. The toon in question doesn't have Celestias or Nightmares, so it's going to be a dual Balizarde build. Instead of writing non-monk, I should have written non-handwraps, as a 8fgt/6ran/6monk-build would be perfectly fine for me. I will have to check out if the feats and APs are fine for going Elf, as the Aerenal weapons line enhances Pinion and Celestia.

Do you feel that you are missing Improved Evasion on these 8/6/6 builds? Did you take the Epic Reflexes feat?

What's a sensible leveling progression for the 8/6/6 build?
1monk
2-7ranger
8 monk
9-17 fighter
18-20 monk?

I looks like you want to take 8 fgt as soon as possible to be centered, monk 6 asap to get shadow veil, and ran 6 asap to get Manyshot and ITWF. This looks pretty hard to do at the same time. One option is, of course, put ranger behind (eg at 13-18), take the TWF feats manually, and do a LR at cap to get GTWF at 18, and take Cleave and Great Cleave in the appropriate feat slots. This sounds like some hassle, though.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #9 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 5:05am
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He're a template, re-adjust for your preferred feats accordingly.

Lvl      Class      Feats            
1      Monk      Point Blank shot      Stunning Fist      
2      Monk      Zen Archery            
3      Ranger      Power Attack      Bow Strenght      
4      Ranger      Two Weapon Fighting      Rapid Shot      
5      Ranger      Diehard            
6      Ranger      Cleave      Precise Shot      
8      Ranger      Improved TWF      Manyshot      
9      Monk      Improved Critical (Ranged)            
10      Monk      Fists of Light            
12      Monk      Adept of Forms      Master of Forms      10k Stars
13      Fighter      Improved Precise Shot            
14      Fighter      Greater TWF            
15      Fighter      Improved Critical (Bludgeoning)            
16      Fighter      Precision            
18      Fighter      Grandmaster of Forms      Great Cleave      
20      Fighter      Dodge            
21      Epic      Combat Archery            
24      Epic      Overwhelming Critical            
26      ED      Perfect TWF            
27      Epic      Blinding Speed            
28      ED      Tactician      
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #10 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:23am
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NOTdarth wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 5:05am:
He're a template, re-adjust for your preferred feats accordingly.
.....
......


Note that this template is missing weapon Focus, Gr. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. A non-handwrap build would need all 3 to remain centered
« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:24am by Razaghan »  
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Reply #11 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:56am
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Not if they're using celestias.
  
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Reply #12 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:00am
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Munkenmo wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:56am:
Not if they're using celestias.


indeed Smiley but what is the point of going fighter 8 then, if you are already centered? I thought we were talking 8/6/6 builds centered with a normally non-monk weapon
  
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Reply #13 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 7:27am
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Also, why take stunning fist on a non-handwrap build. Sure power attack is a better fit in the monk level 1 slot?
  
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Reply #14 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:53am
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aDifferentHandle wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 4:43am:
What's a sensible leveling progression for the 8/6/6 build?


Now Razaghan and totallynotanyoneyouknow, read this slowly and out loud.
Here is a template, re-adjust for your preferred feats accordingly.

Now lets break down that sentence: Here is a template
Template may mean: a stencil, pattern or overlay used.

2nd part of the sentence:
re-adjust for your preferred feats accordingly.
re-adjust: To adjust or arrange again
for your preferred feats: for the feats you're actually going to use.
accordingly: in a way that is appropriate to the particular circumstances.

Allrighty then, go read your remarks. Did I suggest anything other than the leveling TEMPLATE to be used? Did I suggest the feats to be used?
  
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Reply #15 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:59am
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NOTdarth wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:53am:
Allrighty then, go read your remarks. Did I suggest anything other than the leveling TEMPLATE to be used? Did I suggest the feats to be used?

Your template seems to be well-suited for a handwrap user. It doesn't, however, address my main issue to ask for a build progression: ITWF at Ran 6, One with the Blade at Fgt 8.
  
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Reply #16 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 9:08am
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Wait, Nightmares are still good?
  
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Reply #17 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 9:15am
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I don't think I understand what you're asking. Do you want to be centered in heroics ASAP?
  
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Reply #18 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:15am
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NOTdarth wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 9:15am:
I don't think I understand what you're asking. Do you want to be centered in heroics ASAP?

I want to, but I don't see a viable way to do this.

Taking Monk 6 later than 18 means that you're going to spend an Epic feat for the Master Stance.
Taking Ranger 6 later than 18 means that you're delaying GTWF a lot and need to spend an Epic feat for GTWF.
This means that the final two heroic levels should be Fighter levels, essentially delaying centered Rapiers to epic content. This makes me a bit sad.

Along similar lines is a 9Monk/8 Fighter/3Ranger build, which avoids gets Improved Evasion, and actually needs to take ITWF and Manyshot.
« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:19am by aDifferentHandle »  
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Reply #19 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:27am
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just skip the centered in heroics, not worth the effort in bending the build to fit it
  
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Reply #20 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:30am
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If you want an endgame build, who cares what you gotta do in heroic levels. Go QQ some more.
  
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Reply #21 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:39am
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Was at work so didn't have time to fuck around with it. But yeah, basicly if you want to optimize all the bonus feats you want 6 ranger asap and 6 monk when you hit 12 for Master. Which means fighter backloading. Which again won't matter much since you won't be centered in heroics anyway, but you won't have to LR, respec etc.

so:
01      Monk     Power Attack         Dodge    
02      Monk     Zen Archery            
03      Ranger   Point Blank Shot     Bow Strength      
04      Ranger   Two Weapon Fighting      Rapid Shot      
05      Ranger   Diehard            
06      Ranger   Cleave      Precise Shot      
08      Ranger   Improved TWF      Manyshot      
09      Monk     Improved Critical (w/e)            
10      Monk     Fists of Light            
12      Monk     Adept of Forms      Master of Forms      10k Stars
13      Fighter      Weapon Focus          
14      Fighter      Greater TWF            
15      Fighter      Improved Critical (Ranged)            
16      Fighter      Greater Weapon Focus            
18      Fighter      Improved Precise Shot      Great Cleave      
20      Fighter      Weapon Specialization            
21      Epic      Combat Archery            
24      Epic      Overwhelming Critical            
26      ED      Perfect TWF            
27      Epic      Blinding Speed            
28      ED      Tactician
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #22 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:45am
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Thanks, this looks nice. But do I really want 10kS on a build which spends 50% of its AP to increase the melee damage?

And fuck you, cdr. If you don't have anything to contribute, shut your cakehole.
« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:48am by aDifferentHandle »  
That's not opinion, that's science. And science is one cold hearted bitch with a 14 inch strap on.
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #23 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:58am
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It's your 3rd monk free feat. What the fuck do I care what you gonna do with it. 10k and Dodge you can swap for whatever else you like anyway.
  
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Re: TWF non-monk input appreciated.
Reply #24 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 11:05am
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Razaghan wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 3:00am:
This is an interesting input. I am currently Tring so can't test myself, but on paper dual balizardes on a centered kensei with 13-20 / x3 crit profile totally trump nightmares as far as raw dps is concerned. Is the lifestealing effect that significant even after the nerf?

I have 2x Nightmares, Balizardes, Celestias. (thanks to raidboxes). I was considering dual nights for my final life, but then U20 happened and I decided to go for dual Balizardes. Maybe I should reconsider... [Build will be 8/6/6 centered kensei w/ ranged component]


Honestly, in an off destiny, my crits seemed bigger with Nightmares (500+ range) where Balizardes were not quite 500 in the same destinies.  They might have been higher because of sneak attack in some situations, but even stunned mobs were lower.

Life Stealing is still pretty good, not as nice as before, but hitting a woo-woo on multiple mobs with a cleave still happens.  I still see occasional PK instakills with nightmares also.  Nightmares also have the untyped damage to help them.  I slotted a mabar neg level augment in the balizardes and will play with it a bit more tonight though.
  
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