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barcelot
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Bard/AA
Jun 26th, 2014 at 7:10pm
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I have been playing with this and will keep playing with it. But I am pretty sure some master builders here must already have some good versions.

I am chasing the handy cheap swashbuckler enhancements and the AA.  Specifically the double shot bumps, action boosts and the AA cap 20% and 5% double shots.  Can't decide if it is worth it. 

Disclosure, yes I realize that chuckers have skewed everything and tend to make all AAs look gimpy.
« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2014 at 7:11pm by »  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #1 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Sorry, but this is a waste of time, you will have a lv 28 gimp.

  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #2 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 5:15pm
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its not that chuckers are good, its more like bow user without monk is kinda.. you know.. Someone help me out, what is the word im looking for?
  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #3 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 7:58pm
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Lelouch wrote on Jun 27th, 2014 at 5:15pm:
its not that chuckers are good


this is why you aren't worth listening to
  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #4 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 9:35pm
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yeah, super glad I just gave you two another venue to bitch about whether chuckers are powerful or not, just what I was looking for.
  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #5 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 10:13pm
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1. swashbuckliing doesn't work with bows.
2. there is nothing in the swashbuckling tree that will outperform 10k stars.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Bardchers can work, but by the time you've hit your second manyshot on a bard, a monkcher has done 10k stars, manyshot, 10k stars, 10k stars, manyshot.

Non monk archers dps is gimped in comparison, there's no way round that.

Given you're taking bard levels atleast you atleast opened up the possibility of providing party buffs and CC, so you've got some utility going for you, meaning the more bard levels the better your utility.

Like a monk though, you're going to need 6ranger levels for the bonus feats, and deepwood sniper core abilities.

as a 14/6 you'll pick up 3*5th level spells and get a passive +2 to inspire courage.

if you were to drop to a 13/6/1 you'll keep all your level 1/2/3/4 spell slots, and only lose a level 5 spell slot and your inspire courage drops to a +1 boost

your 1level choice is kind of up to you.

rogue nets traps
fighter = feat + 3 actionboosts.
barb = movement speed (it is a big deal)
wiz = mental toughness and a feat (surprisingly useful)
fvs = divine might

None of those splits have evasion though, not a huge deal, but if you want evasion you're obviously locked into:

11bard/9ranger
or 12bard/6ranger/2rogue

with the 11/9 split, you get no extra useful feats from ranger, so effectively you're taking 3ranger levels for +3 mins on rams might and evasion, you will lose your level 5 bard spells, song of freedom and a level 4 bard spell slot, not the biggest loss in the world to be fair.

the 12/6/2 split loses level 5 spell slots (GH).

Imo if you want traps you may aswell do a 12/6/2 split. Your dex and your reflex scores will be potentially good enough to make evasion worth having in EE. 
If you can play without evasion though, and don't give a fuck about traps (like me) then barbs movement speed paired with warchanters sprint boost is amazing.
  

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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #6 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 10:48pm
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The double shot. dodge, max ac dex, all work while holding a bow with swashbuckling on.

Otherwise, the on your toes doge boost, the tavern shanties extra songs, the core 3 uncanny dodge, the fast movement, and the 30 % doubleshot boosts are what I take at post lev 24.

The elf tree and the elf arcane archer capstone combined with the swashbuckler give a walk around double shot of 31% lv 25-27, and becomes 41% at 28. it also allows 5 boosts to 71% double shot 5 times a day, 8 times with a twist, this is before the eventual 3 primal past live feats will  provide the final +10% doubleshot. Walk around will be 51% then, and boosting to 81% with Thunderforge Longbow. The damage is the dex bonus as well, from the tier 4 elf tree.

Maxed perform ranks, and UMD ranks, 10 songs of varying help plus lots of buffs, and a wicked coccoon.

Prior to lev 25 tier 5 was swashbuckler, the paralyzing arrows were followed with a coup de grace. Would also take the second skin, but threading the needle and exploit weakness of course don't work with bow. On the mark, elegant footwork, and resonant arms all were must takes before switching to the capped Elf AA for the doubleshot build. 

Had considered the pure bard elf AA but the feat cost makes it a untenable prospect, I went to lev 11 with ranger to get the free improved precise shot, and the extra +3 Bab as well.
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2014 at 10:53pm by »  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #7 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 11:37pm
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I can't tell if you're being obtuse listing non swashbuckling related enhancements or if you're simply trying to justify your case to yourself.

Anyway, If you're going to try compare a finesse based AA to an OC/wis based monkcher your dps is going to be considerably behind, especially during furyshot. Doubleshot is nice and all, but the simple fact is that you stated:

Quote:
I am chasing the handy cheap swashbuckler enhancements and the AA.  Specifically the double shot bumps, action boosts and the AA cap 20% and 5% double shots.  Can't decide if it is worth it. 


The simple answer is that compared to a monkcher, no it's not. The less levels you take in bard, the less compelling the reason is to go bard over monk. I'm not going to get into the math again on how much doublestrike it takes to beat 10k stars overall, but given the ability to use adrenaline during 10k stars doubleshot simply isn't as good.
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2014 at 11:40pm by Munkenmo »  

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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:30am
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Munkenmo wrote on Jun 27th, 2014 at 11:37pm:
I can't tell if you're being obtuse listing non swashbuckling related enhancements or if you're simply trying to justify your case to yourself.

Anyway, If you're going to try compare a finesse based AA to an OC/wis based monkcher your dps is going to be considerably behind, especially during furyshot. Doubleshot is nice and all, but the simple fact is that you stated:


The simple answer is that compared to a monkcher, no it's not. The less levels you take in bard, the less compelling the reason is to go bard over monk. I'm not going to get into the math again on how much doublestrike it takes to beat 10k stars overall, but given the ability to use adrenaline during 10k stars doubleshot simply isn't as good.


No I am not being obtuse I am listing the abilities that work with this build from the swashbuckler. Are you being obtuse when you suggest I am being obtuse?

It is not a finesse based AA, it is a Elf tree AA/bard the tier 4 ability gives the dex for damage on longbows, rapiers, longswords. And access to the elf AA which can be capstoned in a multiclass toon. Providing the needed double shot.

It is silly to dismiss a walking 50% doubleshot with 80% 8 times a day, as negligible. If I wanted a moncher I would make a moncher just like every other player. But in this case  I don't want a moncher I want something different then a moncher.

« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:31am by »  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:34am
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Whether or not it is worth the effort I am still examining.
  
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Munkenmo
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #10 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:34am
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Quote:
If I wanted a moncher I would make a moncher just like every other player. But in this case  I don't want a moncher I want something different then a moncher.


This is an entirely different line of reasoning compared to your op.

I'm not going to continue posting here, you're well on your way to building a sub par archer and it's fine because that's what you want to have.
  

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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #11 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:43am
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all right, thanks for your input, If I want to make a cookie-cutter moncher I will make sure to reread all your posts about them. 

On the way out, please notice that this was listed as Bard/aa build not moncher, also try to remember that you cant have a bard/monk combo so it was pretty clear I wasn't going for moncher, so don't bust my ass about my Orig post dickhead, instead read what the thread is about before jumping in with fucking "I know! I know here is how monchers are great" bullshit.

Now go subpar yourself in the ass.
« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2014 at 12:58am by »  
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Rubbinns
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #12 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 1:10pm
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all right, thanks for your input, If I want to make a cookie-cutter moncher I will make sure to reread all your posts about them. 

On the way out, please notice that this was listed as Bard/aa build not moncher, also try to remember that you cant have a bard/monk combo so it was pretty clear I wasn't going for moncher, so don't bust my ass about my Orig post dickhead, instead read what the thread is about before jumping in with fucking "I know! I know here is how monchers are great" bullshit.

Now go subpar yourself in the ass.

He was actually being helpful. The best archers in the game are Monkchers, and star chuckers. A Swashbuckling Bard AA is something done for flavor.

Seems you're upset that those builds are laughably better. That and you don't like the perceived stereotype that anything else is gimped. As some sort of socially awkward rebellion, your goals are to change the cultural view to be less skewed towards efficiency and more on the verge of Gimped, but full of fun and flavor.



« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2014 at 1:21pm by Rubbinns »  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #13 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 3:42pm
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Nah, I know that it will be less powerful, made it clear in the beginning. Thanks for this post.

He just pissed me off, because he wasnt' helping, he was just dumping conclusions and agendas that he has put up on other threads. Like I needed someone to tell me Monchers and chuckers were more powerful? and his assumption that swashbuckling doesn't work with longbow showed that he really hadn't experimented or investigated at all. So, no help, just someone talking down to the thread content.

I think their are some interesting tweaks available in the Bard /aa and your right they are flavor, but many FOTM builds start with people poking and investigating new abilities and extrapolating from there, that is what I am attempting and the cost/return analysis I am trying to make. 

I will post the current build later this weekend, hope you will continue to contribute.
  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #14 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 6:29pm
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So biggest problem with preconceived build ideas? they become unconceived.

I went to a lot of cost in AP to get to backdoor the capstone AA.  21 in elf 41 in AA, and was able to get what I wanted.

But,

In epic content the coup de grace does more for me then the slaying arrow unless I switch to fury, and then I just may have well made a monkcher, which is not my goal.

So if I stay with non fury, the fatesinger is handy, I get about 28 sirens and drop about 23 of those with coup de grace. 

Going to level the shadow dancer today and see if that may roll better with stacked double shot.
  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #15 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 6:33pm
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Ho ho! dupe on! 

you get a meteoric star ruby! you get a meteoric star ruby! and you get a meteoric star ruby!  Everyone gets a meteoric star ruby!!


  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #16 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 8:13pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 27th, 2014 at 7:58pm:
this is why you aren't worth listening to


Cant you for once read the whole sentence or are you so fucking dumb and mentaly impaired and unable to read beyond first 3 words?
  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #17 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 8:21pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Jun 28th, 2014 at 1:10pm:
He was actually being helpful. The best archers in the game are Monkchers, and star chuckers. A Swashbuckling Bard AA is something done for flavor.

Seems you're upset that those builds are laughably better. That and you don't like the perceived stereotype that anything else is gimped. As some sort of socially awkward rebellion, your goals are to change the cultural view to be less skewed towards efficiency and more on the verge of Gimped, but full of fun and flavor.





Swf isnt working with ranged so i dont know why you would make something like that at all.
Currently in ddo its hard to pull off a ranged only build without monk, be it a shuri build or bow user.
I mean its just a flavor build in the end.
You could maybe make something with throwers and bard but doubt it can top ninjas core for extra shuris, didnt really look to much at thrower bard idea.

Op are you interested in thrower bards?
Maybe it could be fun, no idea tho, dont plan to make anything like that myself, currently super happy with broken swf druid, beyond happy since i really like to blitz with 0 issues in ee wyrn on that broken abomination.
Why im suggesting thrower is, if you go bow you need to stick to aa tree which as cross tree kinda locks you out of most bard things.
If you go throwerish route you could stick to swasch tree n such.
Maybe better if your goal is ranged and not bow.
IF its bow only, then really dont know what to say, you can try it, if its fun for you good.

« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2014 at 8:28pm by Lelouch »  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #18 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 10:49pm
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Not using the single weapon feat mate, just the bonuses that apply dodge, doubleshot, fastmove, crit, blowblow, second skin, coup de grace.

I do have a chucker bard as well, its good fun too.

What does suck is that while last week I would get coup de grace on enthrall or fascinated mobs about 50-70% of the time that bug has gotten worse, and I went 80 for 0 today, nothing dies if it is enthralled, fascinated, or sleeping, nothing.

now, all the others conditions still work great dance, para, stun, memezmerized, they all give solid insta death but not the others.

Now, that beyond being in the official know issues list is also a huge bite out of damage for this build in end game. The mobs almost never fail against para and the cool down on the siren song is to long.

While my other melee bard is getting coup left and right. 

And considering how long it took them to fix the songs of the dead, I don't see this getting fixed anytime soon, so probably back to the slaying arrow build with maxed doubleshot.
  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #19 - Jun 30th, 2014 at 11:40pm
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So if I stay with non fury, the fatesinger is handy, I get about 28 sirens and drop about 23 of those with coup de grace.

I wouldn't move out of Fury ever on a toon like this.
And be sure when to use that Furyshot or damn better provide something between Manyshots ( be it Fascinate, godly buffer - in a good way, Pin, Whistler, heal some maybe, keep hage up, you know bardy stuff ).

I think it's pretty cool flavour toon but really requires smart IPS play and active support, not just pathetic one-arrow-at-time between Manyshots like I seen many "bards" do.

Another question is if you can fit ranged feats at all.
  
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Factor
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #20 - Jul 1st, 2014 at 12:23am
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couldn't you just sing while playing a pure ranger?  Smiley
  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #21 - Jul 1st, 2014 at 5:56am
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yeah, sure, that will work. 

2/10
  
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barcelot
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #22 - Jul 7th, 2014 at 5:13am
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killed it,

Just cost to much for to little pay off, constant switching between trees depending on quest but with no high end effect.

Able to do a lot of things, but only at a ordinary level.
  
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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #23 - Jul 7th, 2014 at 6:29am
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Quote:
Able to do a lot of things, but only at a ordinary level.


It's a bard, what did you expect?
  

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Re: Bard/AA
Reply #24 - Jul 7th, 2014 at 8:56am
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Just cost to much for to little pay off, Able to do a lot of things, but only at a ordinary level.


I told you so.
  

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PM Epoch For Details. Or, in case you don't already know, OnePercenter controls the Exploits Board. Lastly, if you're truly desperate, Vendui Tells Everyone
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