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U38 Balance Changes
Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:06pm
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https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/494595-U38-Balance-Changes

Hey, SteelStar here. I'm here today to talk about a few upcoming changes you'll see in Update 38's first Lamannia, currently targeted for next week.


We've put quite a bit of time lately into gathering DPS data. This is in part to evaluate where builds are when on an even footing, to find outliers (both high and low), evaluate why they're outliers, and bring those in as necessary. This, in turn allows us to better balance groups - We can better make overall Melee buffs if we don't have 1-2 builds doing triple the damage of the other 98% of Melee builds. We'll talk a little about our tests, then outline the changes coming.


Testing an extensive number of builds (over 40) in terms of DPS: A pure 20 Monk, using Handwraps, with most of its points in Shintao and the rest in Henshin, did significantly, unquestionably more damage than any other build we tested. It was not close. More than 30% above anyone else. Far below that, the #2 build had most of its levels in Monk, the #3 was another pure Monk, and #4 had a significant number of Monk levels as well. The #7 build in terms of raw DPS was 20 Monk Henshin Mystic using a Quarterstaff. No Monk builds we tried ranked below that.


In addition, the process of this balance check helped us identify a bug where characters who were Two Weapon Fighting (as well as those using Handwraps) were receiving Doublestrikes, Offhand Attacks, and Offhand Doublestrikes at a far lower rate than intended while moving. We've now fixed that internally. For comparison, most fighting styles deal similar damage numbers while moving vs. standing still; TWF on Live deals about 40% less damage while moving because of this bug. With Update 38, Two Weapon Fighting damage will be roughly the same when standing or moving, as it is for other styles.


Based on the above, we're confident that an adjustment is needed. We understand that Melees are not in the strongest place in the top-end meta right now; we aren't trying to kick Melee when it's down. Rather, we're trying to bring the Melee outliers in, so we can better balance Melee as a group. Consider this some first steps that will allow us to better make other ones down the road (such as improving Melee Defense).

Handwraps
You've likely seen some threads by now about Duality, the Raid Handwraps from Ravenloft. We'd initially given Ravenloft handwraps damage dice akin to two-handed weapons in the pack. We'd had some reasons for it at the time, but we missed the mark on this one (especially with Handwraps benefitting disproportionately well from the increases in internal damage dice) . We're planning on dropping their dice from [1d6+6] to [1d6+3]. (In addition, the Legendary Morninglord and Nightmother handwraps will drop from [1d6+4] to [1d6+2].) Duality will still be the strongest handwraps, and likely stronger than most other weapons out there - But not by as much.


Henshin Mystic
Second, Henshin Mystic currently gets 75 Melee Power in its tree. This is a lot more than other trees get, and it's pretty evenly distributed through its cores. We're of the opinion that this makes both Pure Monks and Monk splashes disproportionately strong (especially given the other benefits of being a Monk), and are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15). The net effect on Henshin Mystic builds is that their DPS falls in line with most other Two Handed Fighting builds. (We're hoping to do a little further analysis of Two Handed Fighting in general after U38.)


Vistani Weapon Versatility
During our DPS testing we took a look at how this ability impacts builds. We've come to the conclusion that, ultimately, this ability is detrimental to game balance and our ability to make adjustments differently among Melee and Ranged builds. We're planning to make it apply only to Daggers and Throwing Daggers, as it was in our earliest drafts of that ability.

Epic Destiny Boosts
With the above changes, we're planning on making the following changes to Epic Destiny Cores. This is not meant to solve the inherent issues in a lot of these Destinies; only to make them slightly more appealing, and to introduce a minor Melee buff into Epic.



    Fatesinger :
        Current: +4 MP per core
        New: +10 MP per core

    Grandmaster of Flowers :
        Current: +4 MP per core
        New: +10 MP per core

    Legendary Dreadnought :
        Current: +3 MP per core
        New: Unchanged . Another spike in our DPS testing showed that, with few exceptions, most Melee builds are best served by being in Legendary Dreadnought. It does not need the help; it should remain competitive, even with these changes.

    Shadowdancer :
        Current: +4 MP per core
        New: +10 MP per core

    Fury of the Wild :
        Current: +3 MP per core
        New: +6 MP per core

    Primal Avatar :
        Current: +4 MP per core
        New: +10 MP per core . Bear in mind that this is targeted for the same release as the Druid pass, where Tree Form glitching is planned to be fixed.

    Divine Crusader :
        Current: +2 MP per core
        New: +3 MP per core

    Unyielding Sentinel :
        Current: +4 MP per core
        New: +5 MP per core




---
As said above, these changes are a step. They aren't meant to address issues with Melee Defenses, Ranged/Magic DPS (short of the Vistani change), or anything beyond trying to make a more balanced Melee ecosystem. We have the above changes completed internally, and have been running comparison tests. The essential impact so far seems to be:



    Standing Handwrap Monk DPS falls fairly dramatically, but they're still in the top end of Single-Target Melee DPS. Just not by as much - they're a LOT closer to other builds.
    Conversely, Moving Handwrap Monk DPS rises somewhat, as the bugfix to TWF outpaces the other DPS-reducing changes.
    Misc. Monk builds drop somewhat, depending on their level of previous investment into Henshin cores.
    Most TWF builds now deal about 40% more damage while moving due to the bugfix, but otherwise remain about where they are.
    Henshin Mystic's DPS falls fairly dramatically, to about where other Two Handed Fighting builds currently are. (Two Handed Fighting builds are, themselves, a little bit below most SWF/TWF builds in terms of Single Target DPS, but Glancing Blow damage should put them right in the mix with other builds in overall damage; as I said above, we're hoping to examine THF a little closer in the future.)
    Some Destinies are a little more competitive for Melees.
  
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Bigjunk
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #1 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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Merf nunks!
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #2 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Let the river flow...
  

Dear players,

The D&D rules you were familiar with were too simple to understand, so we're continuing our move away from them to needlessly confusing subsystems that will make your play experience less fun and invalidate old builds and loot. We hope you have fun working out what the fuck MRR, PRR, MP, SP, RP, CL, MCL and all the other bullshit we made up whilst drunk means.

Love,

People who don't know how to fix their own mistakes cleanly
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #3 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:28pm
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"Another spike in our DPS testing showed that, with few exceptions, most Melee builds are best served by being in Legendary Dreadnought".

Yeah it wasn't like that since ... Motu.


Noone will use other destinies, monk will still shit on melees defense and offense wise and Duality monk will still do two or three times more damage than every other melee.

Thank fuck for those tests. Lol.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #4 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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The changes in MP are intersting. Makes a curious choice for assassins. Could go LD for extra MP and overwhelming crit, but now it’s not as big of a difference. Only 28 MP on that front. And you gain more DC, dodge, incorp and fort bypass on SD, while still getting 60 MP from the cores and 5 SA die.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:45pm by acidpickachu »  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #5 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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Hoooooooly shit! The madmen actually did it!  Shocked
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #6 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:47pm
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They actually listened. Now I can finally TR into a kensei or vistani knowing shintao won't completely and utterly eclipse everything. There's a lot of shit I can do with my main now - ....oh, right.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #7 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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acidpickachu wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:43pm:
The changes in MP are intersting. Makes a curious choice for assassins. Could go LD for extra MP and overwhelming crit, but now it’s not as big of a difference. Only 28 MP on that front. And you gain more DC, dodge, incorp and fort bypass on SD, while still getting 60 MP from the cores and 5 SA die.

Yeah, when this goes live, Shadowdancer gets a lot more interesting.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #8 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:55pm
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Quote:
There's a lot of shit I can do with my main now - ....oh, right.


Hahaha. Same. Looking like I can actually use shadowdancer on my main; deleted assassin finally. Tongue
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:56pm by acidpickachu »  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #9 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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...is this good or bad? I can't tell.
  

I'll never understand the propensity of people to brag about being good at a video game. Its a toy you play with for fun. The only person who should be proud of you is your mother. If you're 3.
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #10 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:34pm
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It's almost like they are playing their own game. Almost.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #11 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:36pm
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Translation: We want everyone to play casters. If you want to play anything else, we suggest Fury Ranger as this seems to be the only build we forgot to fuck up.

eta:
Actually, since the "top of the game" raid loot bow is currently broken I guess they did manage to fuck it up, even if unintentionally.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:38pm by GimpyPaw »  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #12 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:44pm
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Wipe wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:28pm:
Thank fuck for those tests. Lol.

theyre bads. you cant use bads to test anything. they cant build, gear, or play.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #13 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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People without Duality bitching on mobos: It's a barrel of crabs pulling others down that make it to the top.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #14 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:05pm
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fork wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:34pm:
It's almost like they are playing their own game. Almost.

Not even close.

It's more like, "OMGZ guys!  We had no clue how builds work and they called us out.  We copied some builds from people that know what they're doing and tested them.  They were right.  We were able to solo EH Lords of Dust without dying!  We screwed up.  Quick, let's change some stuff we still know nothing about and claim "testing" so it looks like we're bosses."

What's sad is that it took them however many hours of "testing" to figure out Duality was pretty stupidly overpowered out of the gate when any decent player took one look at it and thought "HOLY SHIT!  I've got to roll a monk and get those wraps!".
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:08pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #15 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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Carpone wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 1:59pm:
People without Duality bitching on mobos: It's a barrel of crabs pulling others down that make it to the top.

even people with duality. joeschmoe, xplas, and vish are terrible players. then there were people like chai complaining before the nerfs because he couldnt even understand how to parse dps.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #16 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
even people with duality. joeschmoe, xplas, and vish are terrible players. then there were people like chai complaining before the nerfs because he couldnt even understand how to parse dps. 


Such epeen, so strong.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #17 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:30pm
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Tspoon wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:26pm:
Such epeen, so strong.

you sound like you have a hard time playing mmos
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #18 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:30pm:
you sound like you have a hard time playing mmos


I play this game for fun.  I devote the amount of time to it as is it's due, relative to the rest of everything else I do.  If that makes me a shitter, then shitter I am.  RL, it's a thing.
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #19 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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symb and i succeeded holy shit
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #20 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:40pm
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Tspoon wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
I play this game for fun.  I devote the amount of time to it as is it's due, relative to the rest of everything else I do.  If that makes me a shitter, then shitter I am.  RL, it's a thing.

not for me , fam. im in my momma's basement, drinking mountain dews and grinding. im in ur base, killing your dudes
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #21 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:55pm
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assuming 17 [W] on a pure 20 monk, with +100 bonus to damage, from the duality nerf it's 261 base to 210. Loose 51 before MP.

If you were taking up to core 3 in henshing, now going loose 21 MP. Let's say on average you have 200 MP, because blitz and prowess flutuates a lot.

So from 261 * 3 = 783 to 210 * 2.79 = 585.5. You are doing now about 75% of old damage.

Shintao is probably still top melee in damage, for cc and defenses remain indiscutible. I'm glad I won't have to TR again to maybe a silvanus or vistani.

Would be nice if someone could post kolbold tests of vistani, fighter and monk next time lamma opens.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:56pm by Vaultaccount »  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #22 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:58pm
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Sergod wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
symb and i succeeded holy shit


And you should be burned at the stake for it you ugly motherfucker.  Angry
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #23 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:03pm
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Sergod wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
symb and i succeeded holy shit


Maybe I am a shitter, but it seems like the nerfs are a bit over done.  The beefing up of the other destinies, I assume, looks pretty good.  I'd rather keep my cookies, but I knew the duality nerf was coming.  I have no problem with that.  But reducing the easy MP in henshin from 30 to 9 seems a bit heavy handed.  It's not like pure monk was so dominant before duality dropped.  I guess it's a wait and see whether the boost to dps while moving is real.  This game... a fucking first life mechanic is easier to play and more survivable...
  
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Re: U38 Balance Changes
Reply #24 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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Sergod wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:37pm:
symb and i succeeded holy shit

Surely helped, but anyone that is not terribad and plays with okay people can clearly see how much better the monk is or how comically fast the bosses and trash drop.
It's not good for the game or character choices it offers.
Even the jokes from the monk/Duality players were not really that funny anymore.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2018 at 3:11pm by Wipe »  
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