(warning: long post because I was bored and had time to "research" lol)

I read some of what was discussed in the Lynnabel thread (http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1619416519/50). (Not posting this on the other thread bc I don't want to derail discussion, and I think this probably deserves its own post anyway) There was talk about a "downward trend" in quest design and that got me thinking, so I went looking through all the modules/updates throughout DDO's history to test the hypothesis.  Was there actually a decline in quality?

TL;DR: Yes, definitely, but read further if you want a comprehensive overview on every update I could find

From where I'm standing, Turdbine/SSG has only developed four great quests (Precious Cargo, Invitation to Dinner, Price of Freedom, Sunrise) in the past eight years. Everything else since then runs the gamut from "okay" to "atrocious." DDO quest design largely hasn't been good since U19 (early 2013). It's been a downward spiral since then, with the occasional stopped clock moment. Not saying quest design was ever perfect, but I'd summarize it thusly: content prior to 2014 was mostly good with a few flaws; content post 2013 is mostly terrible with a few redeeming facets.

Present day thru 2013
I don't have Feywild or the latest pack so I can't speak on them. Feel free to chime in though, idk what others think of these quests

U47 - Promise of Fire. Meh, I can take it or leave it
U46 - Gatekeepers quests are boring and forgettable. At least it gives us more Cerulean Hills content I guess
U45 - Epic Delera's and Catacombs. I don't count these as new quests.
U44 - Borderlands. Forgettable
U43 - Soulsplitter. Forgettable
U42 - Shart (that's not a typo btw) Expansion. Played these back in 2020 when everything was free. Was not impressed by a single quest. Worst expansion by far
U41 - Lost at Sea. Meh. Into the Deep was better, and that was released years and years ago
U40 - KT. Never run this since I personally reincarnate and don't stick around endgame, so idk if it's any fun
U39 - WPM. Okay in fairness, Price of Freedom is a pretty fun and well-designed quest. Everything else in this pack is garbage though. They're all super linear and/or recycle uninspired ideas that have been done dozens of times already
U38 - Disciples of Rage. Forgettable. Nobody runs them in heroic because the difficulty curve is terribly designed. I've run these, but I can't remember a single thing about them.
U37 - Ravenloft, as others have discussed here, is actually a good expansion. Design-wise though, only Invitation to Dinner and Sunrise really stand out. Most of the other quests are just ok
U36 - Tethyamar. Forgettable. Nobody runs them in heroic because the difficulty curve is terrible. I don't see any epic LFMs pop up either
U35 - Dragonblood Prophecy. Terrible difficulty curve. Badly designed, uber-linear quests
U34 - Tower of Frost. lol
U32 - Slave Lords. Horrendously grindy, horrendously balanced difficulty curve (for heroic), ultra-linear quests that are somewhat fun the first time around, but suck your soul by the time you're finished farming any of it. Awful
U31 - Search & Rescue, Illusionary Larcener, Good Intentions. Bleh
U29 - Legendary Vale and Tempest. Only new quests were Curse the Sky and Creeping Death, two quests I dislike
U28 - Devil's Gambit. Blech
U27 - Trials of Archons. Yuck
U25 - Temple of Elemental Fail. Abominable. Garbage. Trash. The worst adventure pack that Turdbine ever shat out. A steaming shitheap of bad difficulty curve, monotonous grind, lack of faithfulness to PNP, and just general halfassery that we've come to expect from Turdbine.
U24 - Heart of Madness. AKA the retarded younger brother of the actually good madness packs (Reign, Harbinger.) Actually had a few interesting ideas like the mirror fight, but the difficulty curve kills it. I think this is the starting point of the downward spiral. The previous four updates weren't great, but they weren't particularly shitty either. U24 was the first genuinely irredeemable pack.
U23 - Epic Orchard. This is not new content
U22 - Epic TBC. This is not new content, but at least we got Precious Cargo (a great, original quest) and the epics here actually change up the content somewhat - new monsters, different quest layout, etc. Compare this to something like epic carnival, which is just "lol same monsters but they have more hp now, have fun"
U21 - Haunted Halls and Thunderholme. Meh. I can take em or leave em
U20 - Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge. Meh. Sable is alright I guess

Your mileage may vary, but again, I haven't been impressed by a single adventure pack in the past 8 years. Ravenloft was almost the sole exception, and even then... it was largely just "decent," not outstanding. One thing that just kills all the post-U23 packs in heroics (e.g. Tethyamar, WPM, Dragonblood, Disciples, ToEE, Slavers) is that they're vastly more difficult than the prior ones. Enemies with 2/3x more hp than normal, and several times as many enemies as in prior quests. It's as if Turdbine decided on a completely new difficulty curve for no apparent reason. The game feels schizophrenic because of this.

2013 to the beginning
U19 - Shadowfell. An actually good expansion, though by no means perfect. Mirror is an amazing quest, objectively speaking, though all of Wheloon is pretty good. What Goes Up is one of my favorite DDO quests due to how varied it is. I love the Stormhorns. Lines of Supply and Breaking the Ranks stand out IMO
U18 - Disciples of Shadow and Escape Plan. Meh, they're alright
U17 - Epic Gianthold. Lazy, this isn't new content
U16 - High Road. I might be in the minority here, but I like these quests. Stay at the Inn and Rest Stop are highlights. End of the Road is a nice way to finish the pack.
U15 - Druid's Deep. Thorn and Paw is the standout here, but if I'm being fair, this isn't a great pack. It's not bad; just alright
U14 - MOTU. Needs to explanation. Terrific assortment of quests here. Probably DDO's best expansion in terms of quests.
U13 - Lords of Dust chain. I like these quests, even after farming LoD for many an epic token. Spinner of Shadows is a well-designed boss fight that showed creativity on Turbine's part.
U12 - House C Challenges. I loved these when they came out. Still do. Only problem is no one else runs them. But I quite enjoy the kobold challenges for the same reason I like Crystal Cove - they're satisfying and reward teamwork. Rushmore challenges are exhilarating and fantastic.
U11 - Secrets of the Artificers. S+ tier, phenomenal adventure pack. Lord of Blades was my favorite raid in the game when it came out. House C represents everything awesome about the Eberron setting. Fortunately, this pack lives up to the hype.
U10 - Reign of Madness. Very strong pack. Acute Delirium, Sane Asylum, and Lord of Eyes are solid. Lord of Stone is more straightforward but I can tolerate this when the other 3 quests are so well designed.
U9 - Harbinger of Madness. Always loved these quests. The Yaulthoon fight is still one of the most enjoyable boss fights that DDO's heroic game has to offer.
U8 - Attack on Stormreach. Solid. Blockade Buster and Undermine in particular offer you multiple ways to complete them.
U7 - Diplomatic Impunity chain + Chronoscope. Again, solid. Again, Diplo + Framework offer you multiple ways of completing them. Chronoscope is still pretty fun.
U6 - Red Fens. I don't love this pack, but I can recognize it's well designed. Claw of Vulkoor awards stealth, while Into the Deep was creative with its underwater idea. Somewhat lacking in its execution, but still overall great quests.
U5 - Phiarlan Carnival. Fantastic. Small Problem does platforming right and feels very "open." Partycrashers rewards teamwork and has a lot of different objectives. Snitch is the most underwhelming of the bunch, but the pack comes back strongly with Big Top.
U4 - Sentinels. Not the greatest of DDO's early packs, but Storm the Beaches stands out.
U3 - Demon's Den and Acid Wit are meh. Delirium and Mired in Kobolds are good. That Dragon endfight was hella fun back in the day.
U2 - Dreaming Dark. It's okay. I think the ending quest is the best part of it, but the pack overall doesn't really stand out
U1 - Path of Inspiration. Decent overall, with Jeets being the standout
Module 9 - Amrath and the OG Sharn. Amrath boasts an impressive collection of well-designed, varied quests. Sharn is still a decently enjoyable earlygame pack, all these years later.
Module 8 - Reaver's Reach. One of my favorite oldschool packs. Prey on the Hunter had you race against time; Monastery had some fun puzzles; ETK had one of the most challenging boss fights back in the day. Stealer of Souls was quite challenging back in the day too. Oh yeah, Module 8 also gave us Korthos lol
Module 7 - Prove your worth, Ghost of a Chance, Tobias. Love em.
Module 6 - Vale of Twilight. Does this really need any explanation? Everyone loves the Vale. Ritual Sacrifice might be the most straightforward of the bunch, but the others such as Rainbow and Sleeping Dust had some interesting gimmicks. Also, I like Coalescence Chamber. It's very zen.
Module 5 - Necro 3 and 4. I am a shameless Necro 3 apologist. Tomb of the Tormented (rat maze) is actually original and innovative in its approach. Blighted also had a cool idea with the blight rot. Necro 4 similarly has some good quests, like GoP or Inferno.
Module 4.3 - Ataraxia's Haven. I like these quests. Not great, but still enjoyable
Module 4 - Gianthold. I actually think most of Gianthold isn't exceptionally designed, but the flagging quests (Crucible, Madstone, PoP) were very satisfying and original.
Module 3.4 - Chamber of Insanity, Lair of Summoning, Ruined Halls, etc. Not great, but still enjoyable
Module 3.3 - Necro 2. Shadow Crypt exp aside, these are some great quests with neat layouts
Module 3.2 - Delera peripheral quests, Whisperdoom, Dreams of Insanity, Made to Order. Good quests
Module 3 - Sands. Lovely, lovely quests, despite them all being typical hack n slash. It's the dungeon designs that make Sands a good pack. Raiyum with his 3 separate towers, Chains of Flame with its massive sprawl, DQ with its different trials, etc.
Module 2.2 - Relic, Faithful Departed, Invaders, Pit. Pit is one of my favorite quests in the game. Relic is not too shabby either.
Module 2.1 - Necro 1. The weakest necro in terms of design. It's just alright
Module 2 - Restless Isles. People complain about this place all the time but honestly, if you look at the pack from a design standpoint, it's a very well-done pack. The isles themselves are original in their approach. The East Asian-inspired architecture imbue the isles, Ghola Fan in particular, with an original flavor. I like the isles. What they need is an EXP/Loot boost, that's all.
Module 1 - Vault of Night. EXP from Jungle aside, I shouldn't have to explain why Haywire, Prisoner, and the raid itself are so great.
Original release - everything else, including Waterworks, STK, Sorrowdusk, Tangleroot, Threnal, and the remaining TBC quests. As far as I can remember, good stuff... although the Protect Coyle quest is certainly a blot on the otherwise solid record.

So overall, I think DDO can be divided into three distinct eras:

• 2006 - 2012. The golden years for quest design.
• 2012 - 2014. The malaise. Not horrible, but not great either. Analogous to the Gerald Ford presidency
• 2014 - present. Utter garbage

If you actually managed to read all this though, congrats. Interested in seeing what others view as the "cutoff date" for when DDO started drastically declining. For me, it was 2013, after Shadowfell. That was the last great update, as far as I'm concerned. Although arguably, the downward spiral truly began after U24 (December 2014); that weird period between Shadowfell and Heart of Madness (2013-2014) mostly just gave us mediocre, not bad, content.

Quote:

Thank you and thank you for your effort.  Impressive.

Shadowfell is what brought me back to the game and it was worth it, but I soon lost interest (again) afterwards.

Addendum (quoting myself but I don't care)

Quote:


Is exactly the core behind quests such as

Quote:
and that is your quote

We agree on many thing and the fact that quests are lower quality now. The why and how is what I care though

Wrong.

Whoever the moron is that designed all the mind numbingly retarded tower stairs in Sharn doesn’t even have the spatial awareness of a garden slug.

OP: I like cannith challeneges

Me: strike one

OP: I like coalescence chamber

Me: And you are out.

I honestly dont see that much of a decline in quest design. If we look on stormhorns, there is the tracker trap or whatever quest (the one with red named giant that is just a sack of HP and a wizard with pseudodragon on the end), that is na epitomy of bad quest design to me. Kill stuff to unlock the only path forward. Boring imo.

There were always quests like that and there were always original quests. I have favorits from all time periods (havent played feywild yet, so dunno about that). On the contrary I like quests, that allow multiple paths or offer something extra to do, that you dont have to. And I see steady influx of both.

Btw agreed. I HATE Temple of elemental evil and enjoy the LoB cannith pack a lot

5 Foot Step wrote on May 22^nd, 2021 at 2:49pm:




…Or that in Ruinous Schemes, Makek - IN FUCKING GNOME FORM - is 8 fucking feet tall before he transforms into an 8 fucking foot tall Rakshasa.

Stop reading when I realize he doesn't run end game

Meh. Opinions. With you on some, but I’m not on others.

As my mom once told Gunga: “Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don’t.”

Artorias wrote on May 21^st, 2021 at 8:33pm:


Just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it's badly designed. Due to the nature of powergaming, people tend to minmax for exp/loot. Precious Cargo has neither, even if it's objectively a very creative quest. I'd also add that just because I dislike something doesn't make it a bad quest: e.g. Fens and MOTU, I don't like them but I recognize they're decently designed.

In terms of game design, I value creativity and originality. Hack and slash has its place, but as you mentioned, it gets boring and lazy when it's just "kill all enemies and unlock the next room." Bad balance is another huge factor of hack n slash - killing enemies is your bread and butter in such quests. So something like Heart of Madness, despite being quite creative, is still a trainwreck due to being harder in heroic than every epic quest in its level range.

I agree that the "why and how" is generally more important than subjective taste, and tried to explain where necessary, but didn't want to get super in depth, lest I run the risk of making the post even longer.

As an aside, props to vault for (mostly) having decent and substantial discussion. If this were reddit, I'd probably have everyone downvoting me for disagreeimg, and insulting me because disagreements hurt their feelings lol

Artorias wrote on May 23^rd, 2021 at 1:16pm:


As far as free speech goes, the Vault is like the US.  You can pretty much say what you want, and people can openly ridicule you for it.  The mobos are more like Belarus, where they arrest people for wearing the wrong color socks.  (Wearing red and white there is a big fashion -and fascist - no no).

noamineo wrote on May 23^rd, 2021 at 3:35pm:


Soul Splitter always gets a hard pass from me.

5 Foot Step wrote on May 23^rd, 2021 at 11:14am:


Every inch counts mofo!