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popejubal
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first Rogue thoughts
Jun 14th, 2011 at 11:35am
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I'm thinking about making my first real Rogue ever.  I've already made a Wizard 18/Rogue 2, so I should be fine with all of the traps/locks/etc.  I'm just trying to figure out what I can do with the class in general.

Since so much of a Rogue's damage comes from sneak attacks that don't scale with Strength, I figured that the best way to increase my DPS is by increasing the number of attacks per minute.  That made me think of Monks.

Halfling
Monk 2/Rogue Assassin 18
I lose the capstone, but I pick up the monk fast unarmed attack speed.

Str: 15
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

I don't plan on doing anything special with the Monk levels other than getting the free feats and the increased attack speed.  I'd stick with just 1 monk level, but if I'm already going to lose the capstone, then I figured I might as well grab the second level too.

Is this wildly impractical?  Will I have enough AP to make use of the Halfling sneak attack bonuses or are Rogues sufficiently AP starved that I'll be better off with Human or Half Orc?

Suggestions?
  

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Eladiun
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #1 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 12:25pm
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Not a math guy but I don't think the two monk levels increase DPS more than the rogue capstone.

Deadly Shadow
Cost: 2 AP
Benefits:
· + 2 Intelligence
· 4 additional sneak attack dice (+4d6)
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011 at 12:25pm by Eladiun »  

Nevynn wrote on Nov 18th, 2010 at 11:38pm:
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Calvet wrote on Oct 20th, 2011 at 12:18pm:
I just got that impression after you spent 13 pages calling out eladiun for being an interwebs bully when anyone who's been posting on here already knew that.  I mean, he's proud of it and hardly tries to hide that at all.


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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #2 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 1:43pm
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what kind of rogue are you making?

a ass./mech./acro?


my (very) limited knowledge is about acrobats.
could not help you with much else.
  


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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #3 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:12pm
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My $0.02:

- Dex builds are a lot harder to mess up.
- Halflings are awesome for DPS.  They can be hard to level because rogues fight with managing aggro through the mid levels.  Halflings will have a tough time avoiding aggro because they are little death machines.
- Elves/drow are a better way to go if you are new to the class imo.
- Rogues are very gear dependent at low levels when doing traps.  Make sure you have the best items for your level.  Maybe consider mechanic for a while, then spec out of it.
- Assassin at end game.  Even if you never use the assassinate ability (I don't).
- The deadly shadow capstone is worth 20.

My 32-point elven rogue Inkdrop was made after the human versatility nerf.  I built him right around when the desert came out.  Despite his age and being a balanced build (not min/max), he is still my best overall character.

If I was rebuilding Inkdrop, I'd start with these stats:
S - 14
D - 16
C - 12
I - 12/14 (forget which you can get to, but I think it's 12)
W - 12
Ch - 12

Ink
  
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #4 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:47pm
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Speaking from a halfling rogue player perspective. Prepare to die at mid levels, it will happen. I have built a few that even using the maximum subtle backstab enhancement for my level I have generated enough hate to get a mobs attention solidly. Even having put a few build points into cha (think I start at 12 or 14) I couldn't shake some baddies when I smashed diplomacy with max ranks in it. This all stems from my love of adding the halfling cunning and guile enhancements on top of enhancing rogue backstabs.

You will be a machine. The issue is getting things to forget you are there before go you splat. Invisibility clickies and potions can help here along with wands if you can UMD them. At higher levels items with threat reduction can make it easier for you to disappear along with Invisibility.

As for the monk splash I say ditch it and go 20 rogue assassin with deadly shadow capstone and just learn to deal with any hate you generate either through attacking style or items. Follow the way of the uber race and let the hate flow just remember too much hate flowing out leads to hate flowing in which can lead to SPLAT!
  
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #5 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 6:14pm
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Wis isn't as important once you know the trap locations, and +0 vs -1 just doesn't make that much of a difference even when you don't, unless you're planning on cranking out AC gear and pumping levelups into dex, for those times when you draw agro, loose sneak attack, and switch targets to one you don't have agroed. (Been there, done that, and still play it form time to time, but dear god does it show when you're having an off day.)

Depending on your personal reflexes, I'd say drop that over the side alongside a small amount of str to up that con if possible. At least while you're getting used to being on the south end of the agro magnet.

Alot of that "Dear god squishy-rogue" bit crops up due to a new-to-the-class player trying to maximize their non-SA damage by favoring str over con, which is fine, once you've got the system down, but for learning management, you probably want to make it easy as possible for you to keep swinging while your partymembers pull them off you for more SA.

If you've got a pair of str/dex tomes handy:
11/15/16/14/8/14
gets you minimums for twf and power attack, with a pretty easy to gear up UMD score for self healing during those ohshit moments.

12/16/16/14/8/12, you'll want two +1s and a +2 cha. possibly cheaper, if you're a broke bastard like I usually am.

If you really must live up to the "herp derp ima ass-ass-in I does DPS and nothin else", fucking morons I keep running into, by all means, go 16/16/16/8/8/8  Cheesy
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011 at 6:16pm by »  
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popejubal
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #6 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 6:57pm
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Quote:
If you really must live up to the "herp derp ima ass-ass-in I does DPS and nothin else", fucking morons I keep running into, by all means, go 16/16/16/8/8/8  Cheesy


I want that level of DPS.  I just plan on taking care of traps and locks and all that as well.  Smiley

I figure that any Rogue who can't find and disarm traps and fight is just as fail as a "Hjealer" who can't fight and heal at the same time.


Also, thanks for the suggestions so far.  It sounds like my Monk/Rogue isn't a bad idea, but it's less good than just straight out Rogue 20.
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2011 at 6:59pm by popejubal »  

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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #7 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:01pm
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This is approximately what you describe, and has a better dps breakdown than I can provide.  http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292529

Summary: 19/1 has better dps against 50% fort than any other build on the chart. 

It is true that 19/1 is a much stronger split than 18/2, unless you really, really need that last feat.  It's also likely that horc will be better for you than halfling (guile enhancements are expensive!), but both are good. 

Also, I'm sure you know this, but it's worth working out exactly what skills you want and figuring out how low of an int you can get away with (considering assassinate, also). 

Cheers,
Kernal
  

Asketes wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 11:41am:
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #8 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:08pm
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Eladiun wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 12:25pm:
Not a math guy but I don't think the two monk levels increase DPS more than the rogue capstone.

Deadly Shadow
Cost: 2 AP
Benefits:
· + 2 Intelligence
· 4 additional sneak attack dice (+4d6)

Yes.
Rogues have become kind of like Monks.  If you go past 13, you should probably stay pure.
It's more of a preference than anything else though, and those two monk levels will help out a lot while leveling.
But the slight increase to attack speed will only increase your DPS until you get a Rad2., and you can't craft those on wraps.  After that point, those two monk levels hurt you more than they help.
Inkblack wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:12pm:
My $0.02:

- Dex builds are a lot harder to mess up.
- Halflings are awesome for DPS.  They can be hard to level because rogues fight with managing aggro through the mid levels.  Halflings will have a tough time avoiding aggro because they are little death machines.

Yes and Yes, but the second point is easy to fix.  You just wait a moment before attacking.  Make sure someone else grabs aggro first.  And make sure you have the full Subtle line. And you might not want to turn PA on just yet.
Inkblack wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:12pm:
- Elves/drow are a better way to go if you are new to the class imo.

Not sure I agree with that one.
Inkblack wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:12pm:
- Rogues are very gear dependent at low levels when doing traps.  Make sure you have the best items for your level.  Maybe consider mechanic for a while, then spec out of it.
- Assassin at end game.  Even if you never use the assassinate ability (I don't).
- The deadly shadow capstone is worth 20.

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Flint wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 2:47pm:
Speaking from a halfling rogue player perspective. Prepare to die at mid levels, it will happen. I have built a few that even using the maximum subtle backstab enhancement for my level I have generated enough hate to get a mobs attention solidly. Even having put a few build points into cha (think I start at 12 or 14) I couldn't shake some baddies when I smashed diplomacy with max ranks in it. This all stems from my love of adding the halfling cunning and guile enhancements on top of enhancing rogue backstabs.

You will be a machine. The issue is getting things to forget you are there before go you splat. Invisibility clickies and potions can help here along with wands if you can UMD them. At higher levels items with threat reduction can make it easier for you to disappear along with Invisibility.

As for the monk splash I say ditch it and go 20 rogue assassin with deadly shadow capstone and just learn to deal with any hate you generate either through attacking style or items. Follow the way of the uber race and let the hate flow just remember too much hate flowing out leads to hate flowing in which can lead to SPLAT!

Yes, Yes and Yes.

popejubal wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 6:57pm:
Also, thanks for the suggestions so far.  It sounds like my Monk/Rogue isn't a bad idea, but it's less good than just straight out Rogue 20. 

Yes.
  

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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #9 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 1:14am
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Cale wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:08pm:
And you might not want to turn PA on just yet.


unless you have a divine power clickly   Tongue
  


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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #10 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 3:06am
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rev Jim wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 1:14am:
unless you have a divine power clickly   Tongue

I wasn't referring to the BAB hit you take, I was referring to the difficulty in managing aggro during the mid levels.  PA only makes it worse.  Especially for a new-to-rogue player who might not yet understand aggro management the way that typical rogue players do.
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2011 at 3:08am by Cale »  

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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #11 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 4:20pm
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Cale wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:08pm:
Not sure I agree with that one.


The reason to pick elf/drow is the search/spot bonuses.  Well, more the search bonuses.  It was more true when the cost was 1/2/3/4 for enhancements instead of 1/1/1/1 now, so I'll agree that the elf aspect might be a little dated, but they are nice when you are levelliing up.

But drow are very good.  The racial bonuses are to abilities that are nice in a rogue (Dex, Int, Cha), and SR helps tremendously with your will save.  Plus the bonuses to rapiers and short swords.  That crystal cover short sword is pretty nice.

Ink
  
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #12 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 5:01pm
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Kernal wrote on Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:01pm:
This is approximately what you describe, and has a better dps breakdown than I can provide.  http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292529

Summary: 19/1 has better dps against 50% fort than any other build on the chart. 

It is true that 19/1 is a much stronger split than 18/2, unless you really, really need that last feat.  It's also likely that horc will be better for you than halfling (guile enhancements are expensive!), but both are good. 

Also, I'm sure you know this, but it's worth working out exactly what skills you want and figuring out how low of an int you can get away with (considering assassinate, also). 

Cheers,
Kernal


I'm planning on a build similar to this one for my monk, but a might go halfling. Also looking between 18/2, 19/1, and 18/1/1(ranger/fighter) but haven't yet decided.
  
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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #13 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 12:55am
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Cale wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 3:06am:
I wasn't referring to the BAB hit you take, I was referring to the difficulty in managing aggro during the mid levels.  PA only makes it worse.  Especially for a new-to-rogue player who might not yet understand aggro management the way that typical rogue players do.


you still suk @ shourd nub
  


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Re: first Rogue thoughts
Reply #14 - Jun 22nd, 2017 at 9:11am
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Halfmaniac wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:16pm:
I'm pretty sure it is safe to say that KNN has brought a BUNCH of stupid from users on this forum out in the open

Halfmaniac wrote on Nov 26th, 2015 at 8:16pm:
Some of you got baited real bad in an attempt to troll him back.
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