Schmoe wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:28pm:


They really need at least one specific person whose only job is to communicate with the players on the forums and bridge the communication between the players and the staff. I mentioned this too in the conversation I had with them, but obviously they don't really have the option to hire someone like that, that power comes from above. But it really is a necessary part of doing business, and the increase in player satisfaction and retention would likely pay for the person's salary.

Eladiun wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:


See it's all about point of view (thanks Obi-Wan). 

I hated that Rangers were the top of the DPS/Melee tree in 2008.   Dwarven Rangers at that.  No way a Ranger or Exploiter should have been better than a Kensai Fighter or a Barb.  Sure, they should be solid, but not better.  TWF Rangers were redonc.  Of course that is a bad example because it was just a nerf.  There was nothing good being added.

AC is a better example.  They changed AC, added PRR, added Dodge.  There were additions along with the change.  ANd I like the AC changes.  AC is meaningful at lower numbers and the addition of PRR brought back the value in heavy armor.  Your best tank is no longer a 2 monk/rogue splash in robes/light armor.  The addition of dodge is cool.  I think it sucks that we had to get away from d20 to make it work, but everyone knows that d20 breaks at high levels, even in PnP.  A good Dungeon Master just accommodates for it and you also don't have the loot and meta-gaming issues in PnP campaigns at high level.

The spell power thing was really much ado about nothing.  A perfect example of crying for no reason.  Neither my Sorc nor my Wiz give two shits.  Sure, I don't use my ear-dweller anymore and I use more clickies, but other than that, it was a non-issue.  And it is nice to be able to be able to see the stats on my character sheet like I can.  I also like that we got rid of the x% up through level y spells.  That was annoying.  I like the straight up x% boost.  Spell level is irrelevant.  I don't see anyone saying their caster is underpowered.  If they do, they are stupid.  Casters, especially PM or WF ones, are still the most powerful class in the game at cap.

As to the new enhancements:
If this lowers diversity, then I agree it will be a huge negative.  But most of the wailing and crying I'm hearing is "This will break my Kensai III/AA build" or "My cleric is not going to be as fun".  It is more about "I can't duplicate exactly what I have today with this new system".  It's not about "What can I do that I couldn't before"?  What fun options exist now?  How can I make something new that never existed before.  The conversation is 100% about what is being taken off the table and nothing about what is being added.  From that perspective, of course it looks like shit. 

I think the most on target concerns are the ones about requiring points spent in a tree to unlock enhancements.  Very few enhancements required other enhancements as a pre-req.  They required a certain class level or a certain total AP spend.  And that makes sense.  But requiring too much "in tree" spending will reduce flexibility too much.

But that's just it ash, with what I have personally worked with on Lama so far the only option my caster cleric is being given is to stop playing the way I used to which keeps me playing my cleric, or turn her into the follow the hp bars of others no fun that will make me more than likely not want to break her out anymore.

I have been trying to find the wiggle room, but about the only way to make her effective at battle casting again is to spend a ton of points for an ability that only can be cast 4 times per rest for extra energy drain capabilities, even her aura is weaker than it is live due to the switch around in feats I had to rearranged to see if I could salvage her casting abilities.

I have tried hard to refrain from doom posts about this trying hard to gather ideas to put forward but its hard to get the desire for this especially with the given track record. I will be the first one to let you say "told you so" if they really do listen to feedback but my instincts say they just want to gauge the ire of the community and this system is almost guaranteed to be put out with only a few tweaks

Kalari wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:27pm:


The only options available in the Cleric tree maybe.  But what about the Wizard tree or sorc tree?  Is it possible that an offensive casting cleric is now 18/2 cleric/wiz?  And the 2 wiz opens some DC bumps or spell pen bumps or spell power bumps?  Or maybe 1 or 2 bard and you get some enhancement benes for your command/greater command. 

I'm not saying there will be an option like this.  I am not saying there will not.  I have no idea.  They haven't released the other trees yet.  What I am saying is that what you have after the pass might not be the same.  That doesn't make it better or worse.  Yet. 

There is also the very small possibility that they will listen to customer feedback.  Although this is unlikely.

Asheras wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:39pm:


If you think the listening to feedback is unlikely how can this not be d0000m!!? 

pape wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:54pm:

You're winning!!!!!

Oh, wait. You are not. Sorry about the confusion.

Grace wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 1:55pm:


I think Vargouille or whomever was there mentioned during the L-Space Dev Talk last week that things were pretty much set in stones, and that the only changes were going to be mostly cosmetic and in Cost... Not in the trees themselves, and especially no in the tree content, nor in the number of trees available to a given class.

I don't call that discussing an early alpha, I call that forcing down our throat something we don't want to drink. That's sounds especially true when you look at the track record of things that came to pass on L-Space and where bashed by players there.

Asheras wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:


Agreed.  This is the main place where they are going to blow it.  Once you make "trees" the desire to make "branches" becomes overwhelming.  Branches mean prereqs, prereqs mean spending points on a bunch of crap you don't want, to get to the stuff you do want.  That means not enough AP's left over to "have fun with".

What I'm really confused about here is the "why?".  We asked for finished PrE's (for years), and yes, I suppose the interface sucks and could use a re-work.  As Flav has pointed out though, why does delivering either of those require an "enhancement pass"?  Why re-work everything when it's not really what was asked for?  Why build a new house when we just need an addition?

Even if turns out "OK" it seems like a huge waste of resources.

QuantumFX wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:



Good call!  I like that kind of thinking.  I have over 100 taps on one of my bank toons.

Tangent: Actual discussion about enhancements.

Whoever designed the Cleric trees needs to find another passion.  It's obvious that they don't play the class and don't understand what players want/demand from it.  Players waited 4 years for this crap?

The Ranger trees may not be perfect, but they're the most baked so far.  A couple of tweaks and 6 Ranger is going to be extremely popular. 

Artificer trees are a mixed bag.  Battle Engineer is decent but Arcanotech is a pile of shit.  Removal of Repair spell power is a kick in the nuts for Juggernaut builds.

It's lulzworthy that Haste Boost was 'forgotten' in the Fighter tree.  This doesn't provide any confidence that old v. new trees were compared all that much before alpha, and no requirements doc was created.  The way the Kensei tree is presented is ugly/too complex.  Stalwart Defender requiring S&B is completely laughable.

Speaking of which, Sacred Defender doesn't require S&B, and it's inherent bonuses are damned excellent (+1 HP/+1 Positive Spell Power per AP spent).  The new Divine Might in KotC is amazeballs and has no casting time/animation (Sacred STR bonus = CHA bonus for 30/60/120 seconds).  Turns refresh quicker than the 120 sec Divine Might, so it's effectively permanent.

Henshin Mystic is interesting, and will probably see synergy with Acrobatic builds.  Ninja Spy / Tempest will give birth to short sword builds.  Players are going to go apeshit when they find out that Monk healing amp is limited to Shintao, but Shintao is now the tanking tree and reduces offhand attacks by 40%.  Developers are going to get absolutely eviscerated for replacing Ten Thousand Stars with the pile of crap Knock on the Sky.

They replaced 10k stars?

Dammit mouser, if Turbine was hiring old CoH management, they should have brought on positron, not states.

LordPiglet wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 6:58pm:

Vargouille just posted that it hasn't been removed from the game, but it's not present in any of the monk trees they don't want tested this week.  Apparently disabling prestige trees is haaaaaarrrrddd.

Asheras wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:31pm:

GFY.