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I guess it really was the players who fucked it up (Read 6929 times)

karavek Titan Demolisher Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 362 Joined: Jul 15^th, 2016	I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:42am	Print Post
	So in a thread on the official forum about why not to run a quest the answers tell exactly why the devs had no choice but do shitty content design. Through out the thread so many of the complaints reek of xp/min don't do anything that slows me down zerg mentality. People don't want Mobs in groups with varying types of DR Mobs of mixed types like ooze pets to hurt weapons Dungeons that force jumping competency. Dungeons where mobs like casters use tactical concepts like holding the high ground. Dungeons that encourage stealth Dungeons that discourage stealth Mobs who can CC or slow you down Complex large multi layer dungeons meant to make using the map unreliable Traps. Yes one guy says any trap is bad design and a quest killer meant to force buying a gold seal rogue. Long quests with a sucker punch end mechanic. I.e. if its easy all the way through don't want a tough boss at the end. NPC civilians to protect Ticking clocks that can trip up even the best survivor builds Monsters that can endlessly regenerate Mobs with install kill spells or abilities Dungeons that make you retrace your steps I.e I just want to go one way non stop zerg. The list is actually endless the fact is DDO tried to cater to too many types early on so there is nothing g but a divided community forever in conflict.


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platfarmchink Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 866 Joined: Feb 28^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #1 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:51am	Print Post
	So they prefer all quests to just be a UI that appears when you enter the dungeon:


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Gringo Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 881 Location: Prague, Europe Joined: Nov 22^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #2 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:53am	Print Post
	heh, first two clearly points at threnal quests:) where really the monsters are mixed with no other intent than to ruin any weapon u re using. Or maybe there is some reason why every fiend there is accompanied by oozes:) Threnal West is imho by far the worst designed chain but yeah any other objections than lazy design, and bad rewards are pretty stupid


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crunch Stormreaver Piker Offline Posts: 745 Location: Europe Joined: Mar 20^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #3 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:01am	Print Post
	Gringo wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:53am: heh, first two clearly points at threnal quests:) where really the monsters are mixed with no other intent than to ruin any weapon u re using. Or maybe there is some reason why every fiend there is accompanied by oozes:) my go-to weapon there: flametouched iron maul of everbright


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karavek Titan Demolisher Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 362 Joined: Jul 15^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #4 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:03am	Print Post
	Gringo wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:53am: heh, first two clearly points at threnal quests:) where really the monsters are mixed with no other intent than to ruin any weapon u re using. Or maybe there is some reason why every fiend there is accompanied by oozes:) Threnal West is imho by far the worst designed chain but yeah any other objections than lazy design, and bad rewards are pretty stupid Actually oozes as pets is a long held tradition in PNP for powerful creatures immune to acid. An ooze is kind of like a dog feed it regular its fairly loyal and they are smart enough to tame. There is an old article in a second ed era of dragon magazine about oozes and their ecology.


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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #5 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:13am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:03am: Actually oozes as pets is a long held tradition in PNP for powerful creatures immune to acid. An ooze is kind of like a dog feed it regular its fairly loyal and they are smart enough to tame.� There is an old article in a second ed era of dragon magazine about oozes and their ecology. They are medieval vacuum cleaners.


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somenewnoob Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 751 Joined: Mar 10^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #6 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:35am	Print Post
	I'd say on that list I agree with the protect the NPC.....it just annoys me. Though most have the "Stay here, I'll be back" option which makes it much more bearable. And also the ticking clock, just because I am an extreme flower sniffer the first time I do a quest.

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nowAvaultie Waterworks Kobold Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 178 Joined: May 20^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #7 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:40am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:03am: An ooze is ... smart enough to tame. No they are not. They have no brain, which by its very definition means there is no intelligence. In the case of oozes, they're going to eat whatever is the closest edible thing. If that means eating a creature that has brought it other stuff to eat in the past, that's what they're going to do.

	OldCoaly wrote on May 27^th, 2016 at 11:27am: If one of those types of weapons isn't "wraps", then it's a non-starter for Fran.
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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #8 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:43am	Print Post
	On topic, All this really tells us is something we already knew: The player base is diverse and what one segment likes, another will dislike. Some players like quests with traps, some players like quests without traps. Some players like linear quests, some players like quests that are non-linear. Some players like a wide variety of mobs in quests, some want more homogenous and lore consistent mobs Some players like long quests, some players like shorter quests. Some players like stealth, some players dislike stealth. Some players like puzzles, some do not. Some players read dialogue and want a strong storyline, some players just next next next shut up through any dialogue even the first run. And on and on. The player base isn't fucking it up. The player base is asking for what they enjoy. Which isn't the same thing in all cases.


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Gringo Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 881 Location: Prague, Europe Joined: Nov 22^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #9 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:45am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:03am: Actually oozes as pets is a long held tradition in PNP for powerful creatures immune to acid. An ooze is kind of like a dog feed it regular its fairly loyal and they are smart enough to tame.� There is an old article in a second ed era of dragon magazine about oozes and their ecology. Heh, Dragon used to have lot of funny articles - one of my most favourite was "Legal aspects of resurrection" with sentence "In any world where resurrection is avaiable, threatening have no sense"


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karavek Titan Demolisher Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 362 Joined: Jul 15^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #10 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:57am	Print Post
	nowAvaultie wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:40am: No they are not. They have no brain, which by its very definition means there is no intelligence. In the case of oozes, they're going to eat whatever is the closest edible thing. If that means eating a creature that has brought it other stuff to eat in the past, that's what they're going to do. Oh I know that are listed as 0 into in the mm. However as per an issue of dragon that's clearly inaccurate and they have at least a 1. They react to food they react to danger they react to pain they mate and even have courtship ritual behavior as many animals do. Yes oozes actually mate in the dndverse they are not asexual amoeba. Ooze can also be controlled magically or be made a familiar. There is also an ooze diety. Yes there is a divine pile of slime out there in the planes of existence. My wizard vankman and his familiar slimer a green ooze I permafied fly on will always argue against ooze hate.


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Spoon Stormreaver Piker Offline Fuck yeah Drama! Posts: 504 Joined: Apr 29^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #11 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:23am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 8:42am: The list is actually endless the fact is DDO tried to cater to too many types early on so there is nothing g but a divided community forever in conflict. Ah yeah, any game developer is going to be confronted by a list of conflicting and often impossible requests from the gamer base. The basic problem you've described is design by committee. A good developer/project manager still takes the lead and makes a quality product that satisfies a good number of players along a reasonable number of game elements. A bad developer blames the player base for the inevitable confusing and lackluster mess that results when designing by committee.

	The USA is having so many disasters and tragedies you'd almost think it was built on thousands of ancient Indian burial grounds.
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nowAvaultie Waterworks Kobold Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 178 Joined: May 20^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #12 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:38am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:57am: Oh I know that are listed as 0 into in the mm. However as per an issue of dragon that's clearly inaccurate and they have at least a 1. They react to food they react to danger they react to pain they mate and even have courtship ritual behavior as many animals do. Yes oozes actually mate in the dndverse they are not asexual amoeba. Ooze can also be controlled magically or be made a familiar. There is also an ooze diety. Yes there is a divine pile of slime out there in the planes of existence. My wizard vankman and his familiar slimer a green ooze I permafied fly on will always argue against ooze hate. Fair enough.

	OldCoaly wrote on May 27^th, 2016 at 11:27am: If one of those types of weapons isn't "wraps", then it's a non-starter for Fran.
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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #13 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:56am	Print Post
	Spoon wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:23am: Ah yeah, any game developer is going to be confronted by a list of conflicting and often impossible requests from the gamer base.� The basic problem you've described is design by committee.� A good developer/project manager still takes the lead and makes a quality product that satisfies a good number of players along a reasonable number of game elements.� A bad developer blames the player base for the inevitable confusing and lackluster mess that results when designing by committee. If you watch the TV show westworld, you see the game in that Show is a theme park that has a Lead Story Designer.� His job is to craft the content that people interact with.� And that world is basically a MMLARP.� DDO should, theoretically, have the same thing.� Someone who is selecting story elements and making design decisions that the content team executes.� Hopefully, they are making diverse content that satisfies a large, diverse group of players while maintaining a cohesive story/look and feel.� Getting feedback from your players would be valuable, but not necessarily the primary driving force in all design decisions.� That balance is tricky and probably one of the biggest pitfalls of any IP content designer.� Be it an MMO or any other entertainment source (TV, movie, book, etc). Too much fan service can ruin anything. Not enough fan service leaves you with no consumers for your product.
	« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am by Asheras »

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PotatoCannon Korthos Resident Offline Tater Nuts! Tater Nuts! Posts: 9 Joined: Oct 13^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #14 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 12:52pm	Print Post
	Asheras wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 10:56am: If you watch the TV show westworld, you see the game in that Show is a theme park that has a Lead Story Designer.� His job is to craft the content that people interact with.� And that world is basically a MMLARP.� DDO should, theoretically, have the same thing.� Someone who is selecting story elements and making design decisions that the content team executes.� Hopefully, they are making diverse content that satisfies a large, diverse group of players while maintaining a cohesive story/look and feel.� Getting feedback from your players would be valuable, but not necessarily the primary driving force in all design decisions.� That balance is tricky and probably one of the biggest pitfalls of any IP content designer.� Be it an MMO or any other entertainment source (TV, movie, book, etc).� Too much fan service can ruin anything.� Not enough fan service leaves you with no consumers for your product. A Content Director? Responsible for maintaining a coherent and entertaining narrative for the players? AHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHA. I don't think Turdbin has had one of those for ages, not since U12 or 13.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #15 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 1:04pm	Print Post
	nowAvaultie wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:40am: No they are not. They have no brain, which by its very definition means there is no intelligence. In the case of oozes, they're going to eat whatever is the closest edible thing. If that means eating a creature that has brought it other stuff to eat in the past, that's what they're going to do. Many undead and constructs are listed at "0" Int (- Int, actually). They can still follow orders.

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Spoon Stormreaver Piker Offline Fuck yeah Drama! Posts: 504 Joined: Apr 29^th, 2016	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #16 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 1:55pm	Print Post
	nowAvaultie wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:40am: In the case of oozes, they're going to eat whatever is the closest edible thing. If that means eating a creature that has brought it other stuff to eat in the past, that's what they're going to do. You do realize you've just described a cat.� If a pet's owner dies, meaning they're unable to feed the pet, dogs will usually go several days without eating the owner�s body.� In contrast, a cat might wait a day.� So yeah, oozes = cats.�
	« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 1:55pm by Spoon »
	The USA is having so many disasters and tragedies you'd almost think it was built on thousands of ancient Indian burial grounds.
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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #17 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 2:07pm	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 1:04pm: Many undead and constructs are listed at "0" Int (- Int, actually). They can still follow orders. Like someone can write a computer program to react differently depending on the input, huh? Yeah, my copy of "Adventure" is a Supra-Genius!
	« Last Edit: Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 2:07pm by Technomage »
	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Mokune Shroud Slacker Offline Gimped Hairless Ape Posts: 1115 Joined: Nov 16^th, 2011	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #18 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 3:46pm	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 2:07pm: Like someone can write a computer program to react differently depending on the input, huh? Yeah, my copy of "Adventure" is a Supra-Genius! Please post a ss of your LE completion to add to our cache of completely objective relevant data.

	Welcome to your sexually transmitted death sentence served in a shit-machine meat suit.
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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #19 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 5:22pm	Print Post
	Mokune wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 3:46pm: Please post a ss of your LE completion to add to our cache of completely objective relevant data. Nah. ImageShack and Photobucket aren't truly free anymore. Not sure about Imgur but am too lazy to check. Sorry.

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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WeHaveLived Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 945 Joined: Apr 24^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #20 - Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:28pm	Print Post
	Imgur works. It's what I use all the time. Might be a limit somewhere, but I have 100+ pictures, some in separate "albums" and shit, and I haven't hit it yet.


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Illiterate Titan Demolisher Offline Yataaaa Posts: 359 Location: France Joined: Jul 31^st, 2010 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #21 - Nov 4^th, 2016 at 1:12am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 1:04pm: Many undead and constructs are listed at "0" Int (- Int, actually). They can still follow orders. No Int is not the same as 0 Int 0 means you're on a scale like a giant rat with downs syndrome none means you're off the scale, like a chair or a teacup

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FranOhmsford Dragon Raider Offline Rule Britannia Posts: 249 Location: Cannock Chase Joined: Jul 26^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #22 - Nov 4^th, 2016 at 4:57am	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 5:22pm: Nah. ImageShack and Photobucket aren't truly free anymore. Not sure about Imgur but am too lazy to check. Sorry. The insane amount of unblockable adverts on photobucket along with the massively long loading time of each page forced me to look elsewhere and I'm now using Imgur which is completely free.
	« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2016 at 5:01am by FranOhmsford »
	Main Characters by Server - Cannith Jelina, Sylveria, Enochpagett, Lieuk, Larystessian, Molineux. Sarlona Keltenn, Franq, Athiina, Nyszsa, Curleag, Nalpheyn. Khyber Tynecastle, Athenion, Argo Clievelund, Bjorkalina, G-Land Hassannavid, Tannadice.
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Sim-Sala-Bim Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Wha...? Posts: 5356 Joined: Nov 2^nd, 2013 Gender:	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #23 - Nov 4^th, 2016 at 6:36am	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 5:22pm: Nah. ImageShack and Photobucket aren't truly free anymore. Not sure about Imgur but am too lazy to check. Sorry. WeHaveLived wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:28pm: Imgur works. It's what I use all the time. Might be a limit somewhere, but I have 100+ pictures, some in separate "albums" and shit, and I haven't hit it yet. Yes. Imgur is ok. And I sometimes use this one too -> https://postimage.org/


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Cairnoir Dragon Raider Offline I am not a farmer! Posts: 222 Joined: Sep 1^st, 2013	Re: I guess it really was the players who fucked it up Reply #24 - Nov 4^th, 2016 at 6:50am	Print Post
	karavek wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2016 at 9:57am: Oh I know that are listed as 0 into in the mm. However as per an issue of dragon that's clearly inaccurate and they have at least a 1. They react to food they react to danger they react to pain they mate and even have courtship ritual behavior as many animals do. Yes oozes actually mate in the dndverse they are not asexual amoeba. Ooze can also be controlled magically or be made a familiar. There is also an ooze diety. Yes there is a divine pile of slime out there in the planes of existence. My wizard vankman and his familiar slimer a green ooze I permafied fly on will always argue against ooze hate. Didja burn a point of Con for that, or just Magic Jar into the fighter first. Magic Jar was such a useful spell...


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