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Forest
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Reaper DCs
Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:19am
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They seriously jacked up the saves on reaper, I'm starting this  thread so we can try to get a feel.

With that in mind I started damn near at the beginning, lev 2 quests (I'm also trying to track the drop rates for named items in Reaper).

While running 'retrieve the stolen goods' a lev 2 quest on Reaper 1skull the kobolds were saving versus a DC of 30 5% of the time. From there it goes up pretty steep. 3Skull the CR 5 kobolds were saving just over 50% of the time. 5Skull the number were at 90%. TBH at that point they were saving so often it was actually getting pretty hard to accurately track. These were all against enchantment spells.

So lev 2 quest with mobs saving against a DC of 30?  What have you all been seeing?
« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:20am by »  
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Asheras
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #1 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:26am
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They seriously jacked up the saves on reaper, I'm starting this  thread so we can try to get a feel.

With that in mind I started damn near at the beginning, lev 2 quests (I'm also trying to track the drop rates for named items in Reaper).

While running 'retrieve the stolen goods' a lev 2 quest on Reaper 1skull the kobolds were saving versus a DC of 30 5% of the time. From there it goes up pretty steep. 3Skull the CR 5 kobolds were saving just over 50% of the time. 5Skull the number were at 90%. TBH at that point they were saving so often it was actually getting pretty hard to accurately track. These were all against enchantment spells.

So lev 2 quest with mobs saving against a DC of 30?  What have you all been seeing?


I haven't seen that level of saves, that I recall, but I'm generally only running 3 skulls on my level 5 Warlock TR.  Also haven't been really keeping track.  I'll check it out today and post some results.  They were saving some, but I couldn't say whether it was 50% of the time or not.  Also not sure what my DC is.  I generally don't worry about DC's for a few more levels.  But reaper is probably going to make that more of an issue.
« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:27am by Asheras »  
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Forest
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:36am
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Asheras wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:26am:
I haven't seen that level of saves, that I recall, but I'm generally only running 3 skulls on my level 5 Warlock TR.  Also haven't been really keeping track.  I'll check it out today and post some results.  They were saving some, but I couldn't say whether it was 50% of the time or not.  Also not sure what my DC is.  I generally don't worry about DC's for a few more levels.  But reaper is probably going to make that more of an issue.



That would be great if you could Ash. I may go back and try to tighten the testing by just hitting that first room of 3 kobolds and resetting the quest 10 or 20 times to track. It sounds like a hassle but as you say Reaper is probably to make it an issue until we know whats up. 

I used a straight Wiz casting and the tracked the DC from the Tooltips. Good thing about doing the enchantment is that a success is demonstrable where as with evocation it gets a bit trickier to parse the results.
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:43am
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I believe they may have added an inherent "miss chance" on spells.
In Epic Gianthold with a 90 DC, my necro was marginally reliable.

They may be adding 1-2 saves per skull.
« Last Edit: Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:43am by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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Forest
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:45am
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:43am:
I believe they may have added an inherent "miss chance" on spells.


Cheeky bastards.

WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:43am:
In Epic Gianthold with a 90 DC, my necro was marginally reliable.

They may be adding 1-2 saves per skull.


Holy shit.
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:58am
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yeah the DC's definitely feel jacked up on Reaper, probably are getting added saves per skull
  
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Forest
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #6 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 12:32pm
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Jelly_Muffin wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:58am:
yeah the DC's definitely feel jacked up on Reaper, probably are getting added saves per skull 



Well as soon as we get some decent data, we can start countering it. I don't want to sound smug be if any group of scoundrels will spot Reaper's Achilles, I fairly certain it will be someone who at the very least occasionally reads and posts on the Vault.

But a 30 DC for a lev 2 quest?  Shocked
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #7 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 1:51pm
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Well as soon as we get some decent data, we can start countering it. I don't want to sound smug be if any group of scoundrels will spot Reaper's Achilles, I fairly certain it will be someone who at the very least occasionally reads and posts on the Vault.

But a 30 DC for a lev 2 quest?  Shocked


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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #8 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 3:56pm
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So you playing DDO? what server?
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #9 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 6:01pm
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #10 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 6:44pm
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(I'm also trying to track the drop rates for named items in Reaper).

If drop rates are different in Reaper, I'll eat my +2 stats hat. It just sounds like the kind of work they avoid. If I lose that bet, then there's also a very high likelihood Reaper drop rates will get worse after 2-3 weeks. It might be worth trying to summon Rodrak, or advice from someone he showed where & how to look in the code.
  

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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #11 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:49am
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 7:38am
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Not sure how it is at lower level quests since I only played 2 capped toons on reaper but the saves at "endgame" seems untouched. Did 6 skull Slavers and my necro and enchant spells were landing  as much as on epic elite, 98 and 88 DC respectively.
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 11:27am
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 3:37pm
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Revaulting wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 6:44pm:
It might be worth trying to summon Rodrak, or advice from someone he showed where & how to look in the code.


It's not that hard, even if I never manage to get enough time to look at it in depth.
As stated several time in The Vault Leaks and here the format is the same as for Asheron's Call.

What Rodrak had was a tool ( either fully his own or something from AC that he modified for DDO ) that managed to look at things the fast way.

  

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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #15 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 4:07pm
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Flav wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 3:37pm:
It's not that hard, even if I never manage to get enough time to look at it in depth.
As stated several time in The Vault Leaks and here the format is the same as for Asheron's Call.

What Rodrak had was a tool ( either fully his own or something from AC that he modified for DDO ) that managed to look at things the fast way.

So Rodrak's tool ... get on that.
  

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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #16 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 5:06pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 11:43am:
I believe they may have added an inherent "miss chance" on spells.
In Epic Gianthold with a 90 DC, my necro was marginally reliable.

They may be adding 1-2 saves per skull.


102 necro DC killed at will in 7-Skull Tempest Spine.
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #17 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:30pm
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Low level data:

Strealthy Repo - Kobold Prophet at beginning.  Just went in and kept commanding him till I ran out of mana or got to 40 casts.

Fiend Warlock, using Command.  DC = 24.

Elite - 5 out of 40 times saved.  Seems like 20 only.

R1 - 13 out of 40 times saved.  Somewhere around 25-30% fail rate.  (Oddly, failed first 4 times.  6 out of first 10.  But over 40 it evened out a bit)

R3 - 11 out of 40 times saved.  Seems the same as R1.  (Oddly, he only saved 2 out of the first 10 times.  Overall seems same as R1)

R5 - 34 out of 40 times saved.  Seems like saving on anything but 1-4.  80%+ fail rate.

There is definitely a massive difference between R1-4 and R5.  A small difference between E and R1-4.  I'd be curious what the data looks like on a 30 DC.

Not a ton of reps to bell curve the RNG.  A real test would do 100-200 at each level.  And vary the DC a bit to measure the resulting difference.  You could ID the exact will save of the mob.  I didn't put that much time into it.  The trend was clear. 

EDIT:

After thinking about this more (when not watching a monumental comeback in the Super Bowl), It appears that the Kobold's will save is +4 or +5 on Elite, +10 on R1 and R3, and +20 on R5.  Or there abouts.  The sample size is so small the margin of error could be as high as 10% (which is +/- 2 on a d20). 

But there does seem to be some significant progression on the saves.  This seems to work hand in hand with the Reaper Trees.  As you progress in the caster tree, you would be able to offset the increases.
« Last Edit: Feb 6th, 2017 at 8:37am by Asheras »  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #18 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:42pm
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One way to narrow it down would be to precede with Crushing Despair - made save on that results in -5 to will saves so you should see up to a 25% increase.

Also, watch the fucking super bowl instead of testing. It is sort of boring this time but beer helps.
« Last Edit: Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:45pm by spathic »  

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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #19 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 9:04pm
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spathic wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:42pm:
One way to narrow it down would be to precede with Crushing Despair - made save on that results in -5 to will saves so you should see up to a 25% increase.

Also, watch the fucking super bowl instead of testing. It is sort of boring this time but beer helps.


Lol. I ran the tests earlier.  Just posting the results.  Love that the Falcons are killing them
  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #20 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 11:16pm
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Asheras wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 9:04pm:
Lol. I ran the tests earlier.  Just posting the results.  Love that the Falcons are killing them

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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #21 - Feb 5th, 2017 at 11:33pm
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Asheras wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:30pm:
Strealthy Repo - Kobold Prophet at beginning.  Just went in and kept commanding him till I ran out of mana or got to 40 casts.


That's a perfect test choice.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Feb 5th, 2017 at 11:33pm by RemRemi »  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #22 - Feb 6th, 2017 at 12:03am
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spathic wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 8:42pm:
One way to narrow it down would be to precede with Crushing Despair - made save on that results in -5 to will saves so you should see up to a 25% increase.

Also, watch the fucking super bowl instead of testing. It is sort of boring this time but beer helps.



It WAS boring... until it wasn't.
  


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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #23 - Feb 6th, 2017 at 12:17am
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Revaulting wrote on Feb 5th, 2017 at 4:07pm:
So Rodrak's tool ... get on that.



  
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Re: Reaper DCs
Reply #24 - Feb 6th, 2017 at 1:31am
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Fuck yeah, Heroic Reaper 1 skull Offering Of Blood - at the aspect of cunning end fight a handful of CR38 Vulkoor Rattler scorpions popped up. That was a fast wipe.
  

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