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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes (Read 19490 times)
Trollero
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #25 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:27am
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Edrein wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:14am:
It took me giving a list of named weapons for their proposed changes to get this concession. I suggested adding Hand Axes and both Mace styles as well, but Steelstar doesn't like my feedback at all in any thread.


I wouldn't stress it, he didn't like anything I said about Arty on ML either.  Had a whole third tree and the other two reworked back when they were being worked on.

Melee/Ranged tree
Caster/rune arm tree
Construct/pet tree
It was simple synergy.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #26 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:14am
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m4lacka wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 3:04am:
I am pretty sure that Turdbin back then and neither SSG since the big change have ever admitted that rune arm shots scaled basically at a non-100% rate. Or did they ever say anything about it?


Eladrin talked about it when Artificers were introduced to the game.  What surprised me, and makes sense in hindsight, is that Whirling Words scales at 100%.  I thought all the increased damage I was seeing on the heroic version was from it being the lowest level Tier 5 rune arm.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #27 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:24am
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•Rune Arm weapon imbues now scale with 200% Melee or Ranged power (whichever is higher)

Why the fuck? Why not spellpower? AA imbues beat a level 30 runearm imbue at level 2 and they scale with spellpower.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #28 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:24am
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Edrein wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:14am:
It took me giving a list of named weapons for their proposed changes to get this concession. I suggested adding Hand Axes and both Mace styles as well, but Steelstar doesn't like my feedback at all in any thread.

I wondered how long it would be before somebody slapped them in the face with the Named Items lists. Those lists are practically a "Honey-Do" list for the designers, there's enough gaps to fill in the gear for years of updates without ever having to guess where to start.

Trollero wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:27am:
I wouldn't stress it, he didn't like anything I said about Arty on ML either.  Had a whole third tree and the other two reworked back when they were being worked on.

Melee/Ranged tree
Caster/rune arm tree
Construct/pet tree
It was simple synergy.


Construct/Pet/Master Builder tree would have been stellar. Something similar for Druid would also be sick.

Sadly, none of the Devs responses are surprising. They are allergic to ideas that aren't their own, no matter how good they are or if they'd show maturity and professionalism by exploring them.

The vanity and hubris are strong with these ones...  Tongue
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #29 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:29am
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gibbon wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:24am:
Why the fuck? Why not spellpower? AA imbues beat a level 30 runearm imbue at level 2 and they scale with spellpower.


Because… SSG?

Because… That would make sense?

Because… they wanted to finally kill the Rogue Mechanic Capstone?

Probably because of the dual imbues.  Even though they could just stick those with a single spell power and be just fine.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #30 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:30am
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m4lacka wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 3:04am:
Dont wanna be rude to vaulties but u guys are idiots. Angry

None of you were bothered by this:

"Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously."

I am pretty sure that Turdbin back then and neither SSG since the big change have ever admitted that rune arm shots scaled basically at a non-100% rate. Or did they ever say anything about it?

That is quite disturbing.


I feel like I always knew this. Is this really that much of a shocker to people?
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #31 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:31am
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gibbon wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:24am:
Why the fuck? Why not spellpower? AA imbues beat a level 30 runearm imbue at level 2 and they scale with spellpower.


Obviously a huge bummer. But with enough PC arguing and forum rage perhaps they will change it to spellpower. They should.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #32 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:46am
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:31am:
Obviously a huge bummer. But with enough PC arguing and forum rage perhaps they will change it to spellpower. They should.

Yeah. 

Seems like a no-brainer that Rogue Mechanics would be the ranged power build and Arties should be the spell power build.  The funniest part is, they set runearms to use ranged power but set all the new activated attacks to scale with spell power.
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:47am by Digimonk »  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #33 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 12:37pm
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Metal-Beast wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:24am:
I wondered how long it would be before somebody slapped them in the face with the Named Items lists. Those lists are practically a "Honey-Do" list for the designers, there's enough gaps to fill in the gear for years of updates without ever having to guess where to start.


Construct/Pet/Master Builder tree would have been stellar. Something similar for Druid would also be sick.

Sadly, none of the Devs responses are surprising. They are allergic to ideas that aren't their own, no matter how good they are or if they'd show maturity and professionalism by exploring them.

The vanity and hubris are strong with these ones...  Tongue


I suggested it on the second day of the thread after posting my initial feedback. Then I posted the list, explained what few weapons they'd have with unique profiles would look like. And in general tried to make them understand that every class they try to force a hybrid spellsword playstyle doesn't work. Because no melee can free action spellcast while swinging.

Atleast last time Steelstar suggested we take Quicken on Warpriests so we can cast per their vision.  Cheesy
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #34 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 12:39pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:31am:
Obviously a huge bummer. But with enough PC arguing and forum rage perhaps they will change it to spellpower. They should.


I hate to tell you this; but that thread was DOA. They posted it; a few of us gave feedback. Steelstar never replied, it turned into me arguing for decent bonuses and someone screaming "OP pls nerf" and then the thread literally died. That one sat at the bottom of the totem pole until a few days ago when some poor slump necro'd the thread. It still doesn't seem like much feedback that was given was included or changed for the public unveiling.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #35 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 12:46pm
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bummer
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #36 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 6:00pm
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They were probably afraid of the coding. MP/RP is Sev's baby, and it also must be easier to band-aid on top of the old spaghetti. Try to make the imbues scale with the same thing the Rune shots do, and they'd be confused. Players would be confused. The coding would be confused, and both would scale at 200% instead of each at 100%, or it would divide & both would scale at 0%. SSG though aware of the possibility (b/c afraid of it), still would do no testing, and would release it live, bugged. And forget about it.

So you see, MP/RP really is the best option.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #37 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 6:12pm
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harharharhar wrote on Jun 6th, 2017 at 2:08pm:
some potentially nice things in there for Thrower builds, maybe (Doubleshot and Imbues with working Rune Arms)


Unless they've changed something recently I can tell you that the Rune Arm Imbues don't function either with shurikens or darts. Awhile ago I was running a 15 Arti / 5 Bard Halfling that was mostly a buffing chucker build as a support toon for some guild raids since using the T5 Warchanter tree with Deadly and the halfling Heroic Companion it would make the party overall do a lot more DPS and one designated person would be especially Deadly.

The damage output was ok but not stellar and while I have both GxBs and Repeaters for the toon that life I was trying to do it with Shurikens but I did experiment with Darts (Coffin Nail and the Nightforge Spike as well as a few lootgen ones I pulled) I did enhancement trials with the Swashy stuff for a thrower which at the time didn't work either.

I so wanted the Rune Arm imbue blunt to function but alas it was as broken as a $2 hooker's teeth.

It will be interesting to see if the new Arty stuff gets fixed.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #38 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 7:58pm
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this is crazy to hear about because I had a whole build based on rune arms and shuriken a couple years ago and it worked just fine. I would be shocked if they have somehow disabled it but obviously haven't tested in a long time and have zero reasons to not believe you.

I will try to test and confirm myself this week. It would be really weird if they did. My build didn't have bard levels, did you train the sonic proc in SwB? or the Ice one in Warchanter? I wonder if it was possibly getting written over in an instance of bad coding....

I have recently tested all the SWB stuff to be working with thrown as written
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2017 at 7:59pm by harharharhar »  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #39 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:37pm
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Edrein wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 12:39pm:
I hate to tell you this; but that thread was DOA. They posted it; a few of us gave feedback. Steelstar never replied, it turned into me arguing for decent bonuses and someone screaming "OP pls nerf" and then the thread literally died. That one sat at the bottom of the totem pole until a few days ago when some poor slump necro'd the thread. It still doesn't seem like much feedback that was given was included or changed for the public unveiling.


Pointing out you can run minutes of non stop fusilade isn't the same as screaming "OP pls nerf".  I said it was a balance issue and it is.  Balance, as in it isn't equal.  I don't care if they lower its power or buff other things but making one option much greater means there really isn't an option(outside of flavor).  No melee arty can compete with that.  No bow build can compete with that.  But I never said it was OP and needed nerfed.  Learn the difference between sharing an observation and requesting a change.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #40 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:39pm
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Trollero wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:37pm:
Pointing out you can run minutes of non stop fusilade isn't the same as screaming "OP pls nerf".  I said it was a balance issue and it is.  Balance, as in it isn't equal.  I don't care if they lower its power or buff other things but making one option much greater means there really isn't an option(outside of flavor).  No melee arty can compete with that.  No bow build can compete with that.  But I never said it was OP and needed nerfed.  Learn the difference between sharing an observation and requesting a change.


Not Fusillade, I was talking about my suggestions of crit multipliers/weapons. Every time I mention a crit multiplier and show the numbers, people scream OP. But you can have eighteen threads about crit multipliers on fighters or swashbucklers and no one bats an eye.

I agree'd with you. Melee arty can't compete. No form of defense and no offensive power to match repeater builds is silly. I even gave a suggestion on how to improve the Haste boost to match Fusillade and no dice. I feel like Steelstar refuses to take negative feedback or constructive criticism on Artificer changes he makes in general.
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:41pm by Edrein »  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #41 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:22pm
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Edrein wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:39pm:
Not Fusillade, I was talking about my suggestions of crit multipliers/weapons. Every time I mention a crit multiplier and show the numbers, people scream OP. But you can have eighteen threads about crit multipliers on fighters or swashbucklers and no one bats an eye.

I agree'd with you. Melee arty can't compete. No form of defense and no offensive power to match repeater builds is silly. I even gave a suggestion on how to improve the Haste boost to match Fusillade and no dice. I feel like Steelstar refuses to take negative feedback or constructive criticism on Artificer changes he makes in general.

What is actually hilarious is that Artificer "As written" gets exactly none of those weapon proficiencies.

None of this repeating crossbow and rune-arm nonsense.

They're grenadiers (like somebody mentioned) tossing explosives and chemical concoctions, punctuated with Wands and scrolls (Wand Bracelet ring a bell?)

Oh, and the class is CHA based.

So basically Arty in DDO is their own home-brew version that has only nominal similarity to the PnP class.

Don't be surprised if they can't make it work.

Tl;dr- melee arty is fucking pointless compared to Xbow.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #42 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 12:29am
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Edrein wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:39pm:
Not Fusillade, I was talking about my suggestions of crit multipliers/weapons. Every time I mention a crit multiplier and show the numbers, people scream OP. But you can have eighteen threads about crit multipliers on fighters or swashbucklers and no one bats an eye.

I agree'd with you. Melee arty can't compete. No form of defense and no offensive power to match repeater builds is silly. I even gave a suggestion on how to improve the Haste boost to match Fusillade and no dice. I feel like Steelstar refuses to take negative feedback or constructive criticism on Artificer changes he makes in general.


I glanced back through the thread prior to the post and figured you must have been referring to me.  My apologies.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #43 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 2:08pm
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Metal-Beast wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:22pm:
Oh, and the class is CHA based.



According to the 3.5 Eberron stuff, their infusions (spells) were Intelligence-based.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #44 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 2:18pm
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m4lacka wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 3:04am:
Dont wanna be rude to vaulties but u guys are idiots. Angry

None of you were bothered by this:

"Rune Arm shots now scale with 100% Spell Power. Most were scaling at 50% or 80% previously."

I am pretty sure that Turdbin back then and neither SSG since the big change have ever admitted that rune arm shots scaled basically at a non-100% rate. Or did they ever say anything about it?

That is quite disturbing.


Or perhaps you're a fucking whiny nooblet who does not know the game.
Ever since the introduction of Spell Power, five years ago, rune arms receive less from it.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Power#Exceptions
This was mentioned on the wiki for 5 years. Including an obscenely long dev quote.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #45 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 2:33pm
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Technomage wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 2:08pm:
According to the 3.5 Eberron stuff, their infusions (spells) were Intelligence-based.

It's possible I was checking a different version, and I don't care enough to go back and check.

Bad implementation was my point.

Edited:
Apparently I did care enough: CHA is important because in PnP, several Infusions require UMD checks. It states this on Pg.29 of the Eberron Campaign Setting. However, you were correct in that Infusions require 10 + Infusion Level Intelligence to cast. Also, Artificer gets proficiency with all simple weapons, light and medium armour and Shields. Which is hilarious, because you will never see an arty anywhere using a shield.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2017 at 2:36pm by Metal-Beast »  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #46 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:22am
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And came to the conclusion that a meaningful pass to improve them (not even including AI changes, just statistic and enhancement based) was going to take twice as long as the Arti pass above, at minimum.


How the fuck do these people manage to make "changing some numbers in a database" seem so fucking hard? A complete stats-pass on the artificer dog should take like an afternoon. Enhancements maybe a few days since you MIGHT actually need to do some minor coding.

WTF about this all takes so much time?!
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #47 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:34am
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noamineo wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:22am:
How the fuck do these people manage to make "changing some numbers in a database" seem so fucking hard? A complete stats-pass on the artificer dog should take like an afternoon. Enhancements maybe a few days since you MIGHT actually need to do some minor coding.

WTF about this all takes so much time?!

Lynnabel has spoiled you.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #48 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 1:28pm
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Technomage wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:34am:
Lynnabel has spoiled you.


Haha no shit.  Her skill set is limited but it's fun to watch her pick something out and have it fixed in about 20 minutes.

My oozes in lvl 30 reaper content are absolutely brutal. Have like 60k hp or something silly and I can have 5 of those up at a time hitting for 1k+ each....but the arti pupper dies if you look at him funny, often before it even gets in range to hit something.
  
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Re: U36: Artificer & Battle Engineer Changes
Reply #49 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 1:59pm
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noamineo wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:22am:
How the fuck do these people manage to make "changing some numbers in a database" seem so fucking hard? A complete stats-pass on the artificer dog should take like an afternoon. Enhancements maybe a few days since you MIGHT actually need to do some minor coding.

WTF about this all takes so much time?!


Boy do I have bad news for you...
  
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