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The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:24am
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have determined that the reason that people can zerg through Heroic quests so quickly is ultimately due to the fact that the Strafing speed of toons is way too FAST.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/493495-Super-Toon-Zergers-Why-do-you-w...

  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #1 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:30am
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Game freezes all the time = problem solved!
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #2 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:50am
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To be fair, Fran and Chai are on different sides in that debate.

Fran thinks that melees being able to strafe is a problem.   I don't know what the fuck he is talking about.  Melees get pounded on in high level content.  He also seems to think that ranged should be able to strafe and kite at full speed.

Chai thinks that melee strafing is fine because it impacts DPS, hit boxes, and the melees are still in harms way.  But thinks that ranged toons that can strafe and kite at full speed while maintaining full DPS is flawed.   He prefers to see movement speed cut to 1/2 or 1/3rd while firing a ranged weapon.

  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #3 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 10:01am
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:50am:
To be fair, Fran and Chai are on different sides in that debate.

Fran thinks that melees being able to strafe is a problem.   I don't know what the fuck he is talking about.  Melees get pounded on in high level content.  He also seems to think that ranged should be able to strafe and kite at full speed.

Chai thinks that melee strafing is fine because it impacts DPS, hit boxes, and the melees are still in harms way.  But thinks that ranged toons that can strafe and kite at full speed while maintaining full DPS is flawed.   He prefers to see movement speed cut to 1/2 or 1/3rd while firing a ranged weapon.



Aye, and.. god forbid i fucking say this.. but, that Kylstream dude is spot on with the ranged portion of the debate. Unless you had Shot on the Run, you were just like any melee swinging their axes, stuck on spot. The moment they changed that, Ranged became significantly better, in Ranged vs Melee encounters. They still get slaughtered by casters though. Im not sure what the fuck this strafing bullshit is they both going on about.. unless its that.. but that only affected the speed at which you could swing at, not the ability to dodge hits.
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #4 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 10:13am
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i think Fran is blaming strafing because he's probably not physically coordinated enough to use the keyboard and mouse to strafe in that manner.

Essentially if he has to press two keys at same time and use the mouse at the same time, he can't do it.

I think there are a lot of players in DDO with that limitation.  They didn't grow up playing FPS games, and DDO was probably the first 3D game many of these people started playing.   And they are "older" so they can't learn "new tricks".
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #5 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 10:15am
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:50am:
Chai thinks that melee strafing is fine because it impacts DPS, hit boxes, and the melees are still in harms way.  But thinks that ranged toons that can strafe and kite at full speed while maintaining full DPS is flawed.   He prefers to see movement speed cut to 1/2 or 1/3rd while firing a ranged weapon.



Even broken clocks are right once in a while.

Fran's just a fucking moron.
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #6 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 10:16am
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the day they fuck with movement is when i go play a completely better built, run, cared for, and newer game. it is literally the only thing ddo has left over other games.
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #7 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:12am
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 10:16am:
the day they fuck with movement is when i go play a completely better built, run, cared for, and newer game. it is literally the only thing ddo has left over other games.


They could alter the situation several ways: 

1)  Reduce RoF on ranged weapons while moving.  Thrown and Bow on the RoF.  Crossbow on the reload. 
2)  Reduce speed while firing and/or reloading.

They could offset this by adding feats (or buffing the existing shot on the run) to eliminate the penalties they add.  Thus making ranged building include more trade offs.

They could do the same thing with casting.  Either increase the casting time on casting while moving or slow you down (more than already).   And make it apply to casting while jumping.  To eliminate the jump casters who look like they are playing DDO in a bounce house.   

All of this does not need to be as drastic as 1/2 or 1/3rd of current movement speed.  I agree with Rubbinns that moving the pendulum too far the other way would be a huge negative.  That said, a smaller change (10-15%) that makes builds have more trade offs and creates more decision points in combat and makes it more skill based, would be OK.

HOWEVER: I would generally prefer that they fix the melee/ranged/caster imbalance at this point by improving what isn't working, rather than breaking what is. 
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:13am by Asheras »  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #8 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:20am
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:12am:
HOWEVER: I would generally prefer that they fix the melee/ranged/caster imbalance at this point by improving what isn't working, rather than breaking what is. 


Balancing upwards leads to madness.  How can people not see this after all the insanity post MoTU.
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #9 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:22am
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Bigjunk wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:20am:
Balancing upwards leads to madness.  How can people not see this after all the insanity post MoTU.


As I said in the previous post, it depends on the degrees to which you move things.  Part of the problem has been the tendency to over compensate.

Large shifts in either direction are unwise, in my opinion. 

With melee, you also have the option of handing out more DPS, or more damage mitigation, or more recovery.   

Even within the category of damage mitigation you have temp HP, real HP, PRR, MRR, AC, Dodge, deflection, DR, Saves, Fortification, etc.   Then within enhancements, feats, gear, etc.  Classes, races, universal. 

Lots of ways to go.  All of which interact with builds and content differently.  And, the more you do it differently for different builds, the more you differentiate their play styles and pros and cons in a variety of content. 

I think it can be done.  But there are a NUMBER of cautionary tales from the past that should be heeded.  That doesn't mean that it can't be done at all.  Just not repeating mistakes of teh past.
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:29am by Asheras »  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #10 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:40am
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I'm having a hard time typing with my eyes rolled this far back in my head.
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #11 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:23pm
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:22am:
As I said in the previous post, it depends on the degrees to which you move things.  Part of the problem has been the tendency to over compensate.

Large shifts in either direction are unwise, in my opinion. 

With melee, you also have the option of handing out more DPS, or more damage mitigation, or more recovery.   

Even within the category of damage mitigation you have temp HP, real HP, PRR, MRR, AC, Dodge, deflection, DR, Saves, Fortification, etc.   Then within enhancements, feats, gear, etc.  Classes, races, universal. 

Lots of ways to go.  All of which interact with builds and content differently.  And, the more you do it differently for different builds, the more you differentiate their play styles and pros and cons in a variety of content. 

I think it can be done.  But there are a NUMBER of cautionary tales from the past that should be heeded.  That doesn't mean that it can't be done at all.  Just not repeating mistakes of teh past.



Havnt they already fucked ranged folks enough tho? Sure, we can Kite.. we also miss half our fucking shots, because some asshole thought it would be cool to give everything in the game Deflection.. At lvl 1, i swear i missed over 70 shots out of 100, because of deflection rolls.. like.. what the actual fuck..
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #12 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:41pm
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Skoodge wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:40am:
I'm having a hard time typing with my eyes rolled this far back in my head.


Grin
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #13 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:44pm
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I still love the movement in ddo.
It just makes sense on some wierd level.

Just got finished with a Witcher 3 playthrough and in that game the movement is properly balanced.
Things feel like they have weight. Your character takes a little bit of time to turn. There are no silly movement speed bonuses unless you get on a horse.

But...

...something is fun about the old FPS doom-style movement. People don't want reality in a fantasy and how movement interacts with your keyboard and mouse is very linear in DDO. In modern "real" games it is non-linear.

But my keyboard is a linear instrument, and the mouse is to for the most part...
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:45pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #14 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:57pm
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Seriously? Picking on Fran is like picking on the mainstreamed autistic kid in grade school. What's the point?

Now Chai, on the other hand, is perfectly able to defend himself. There's at least a chance of some sport involved with needling him.
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #15 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 3:39pm
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:44pm:
Just got finished with a Witcher 3 playthrough and in that game the movement is properly balanced.
Things feel like they have weight. Your character takes a little bit of time to turn. There are no silly movement speed bonuses unless you get on a horse.

But...

...something is fun about the old FPS doom-style movement. People don't want reality in a fantasy and how movement interacts with your keyboard and mouse is very linear in DDO. In modern "real" games it is non-linear.


Loved Witcher 3.  Think I managed to stretch out the game play for at least 4 months.  Way more balanced than Fallout 4 or Skyrim (both of which have such a short sweet spot of enjoyably challenging - you spend the first part underpowered, have a brief sweet spot of fun, then the rest is OP as fuck) and loved the immersion of the game overall.

Just doesn't have the same replay value as DDO though.  Some interesting character building options, but not nearly as much to get in there and play around with.  If it had a TR system that let you build in power and impossible gear to grind forever, I probably would have never stopped playing (plus, how much fun is Gwent?  Ignored it for the 1st month, but when I finally started building my decks, I got seriously addicted).
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #16 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 3:43pm
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no where in here have I "picked on" Fran.

I'm just pointing out the fallacies of his reasoning.

And it was funny to see him say:
"Strafing is not a real-word movement that people make + I don't have the hand-eye coordination to strafe"

And then say:
"But I should still be able run backwards almost as fast as I run forward because kiting in this manner is the only way I'll be able to solo any quest"

Need to remove any ability in the game that requires more hand-eye coordination than I personally have because it benefits people who can actually do two-things at one time with their fingers.

(Ok, now i'm picking on him).
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #17 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 3:48pm
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Skoodge wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 3:39pm:
.  Way more balanced than Fallout 4 or Skyrim (both of which have such a short sweet spot of enjoyably challenging - you spend the first part underpowered, have a brief sweet spot of fun, then the rest is OP as fuck) and loved the immersion of the game overall.

).


I tried to start Fallout 4 over again saying to myself "I will not make a stealthy, sneaky sniper this time"... 20 hours later, I'm a stealthy, sneaky sniper.

Sad
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #18 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 4:07pm
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bob the builder wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 3:48pm:
20 hours later, I'm a stealthy, sneaky sniper.


Lmao, IKR?  I've done the same for all 3 of the newer Fallout games.

At least the aggro was a little more balanced this time.  No more of that "Bob just dropped dead next to me.  Probably of natural causes, I'm sure it's nothing to worry about" just stand there next to the dead body AI of the 3 and NV.
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #19 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 4:29pm
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:50am:
Fran thinks...

This is where you went wrong.  He doesn't think.  The end.  You should have said "Fran doesn't think." and stopped there.

Bigjunk wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:20am:
Balancing upwards leads to madness.  How can people not see this after all the insanity post MoTU.

Balancing downwards leads to some players quitting.   SSG can ill afford to be driving away whatever customers they have left, for any reason.

The rest of the power gamers will just migrate to the next OP'd FotM build and contine business as usual.  In the end, not much will have changed aside from there being a few less players to group with and pay SSG and there being a few less viable build options for end-game.

Balancing upwards and downwards is fine if done in moderation, but as history shows, neither SSG nor the zealots on the official forums have any concept of moderation.

What the mobo mouthbreathers is that there's no such thing as perfect class balance in a game with the depth and variety of builds DDO has.   There will always be strong meta builds that have been min/maxed to the nth degree and there will always be flavor builds that are less powerfuly but that some people still enjoy playing for the variety.  The sooner people on both sides of the debate realize that, the sooner they can stop wasting time, effort and energy worrying about it and focus on more productive things like the multi-year backlog of bugs and fixing the fubarred codebase.
« Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2018 at 12:08pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #20 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 4:46pm
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Asheras wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:50am:
To be fair, Fran and Chai are on different sides in that debate.

Fran thinks that melees being able to strafe is a problem.   I don't know what the fuck he is talking about.  Melees get pounded on in high level content.  He also seems to think that ranged should be able to strafe and kite at full speed.

Chai thinks that melee strafing is fine because it impacts DPS, hit boxes, and the melees are still in harms way.  But thinks that ranged toons that can strafe and kite at full speed while maintaining full DPS is flawed.   He prefers to see movement speed cut to 1/2 or 1/3rd while firing a ranged weapon.



Chai is playing a melee atm, Fran is playing a ranged.
  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #21 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:05pm
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SpaceGoat wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 4:46pm:
Chai is playing failing at a melee atm, Fran is playing failing at a ranged.

  
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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #22 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:20pm
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Vendui wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:23pm:
Havnt they already fucked ranged folks enough tho? Sure, we can Kite.. we also miss half our fucking shots, because some asshole thought it would be cool to give everything in the game Deflection.. At lvl 1, i swear i missed over 70 shots out of 100, because of deflection rolls.. like.. what the actual fuck..

Along with missile deflection. Which they havent put on any mobs yet, there is reaper damage debuff. ranged and magical are affected more by it than melee. All they have to do is adjust those sliders even more. Balancing for elite is a lost cause. I can smash ee on first life bank mules. reaper is where they will be balancing for the future.
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #23 - Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:48pm
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Vendui wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 12:23pm:
Havnt they already fucked ranged folks enough tho? Sure, we can Kite.. we also miss half our fucking shots, because some asshole thought it would be cool to give everything in the game Deflection.. At lvl 1, i swear i missed over 70 shots out of 100, because of deflection rolls.. like.. what the actual fuck..

LMFAO.

I called this before Ravenloft shipped.

Welcome to the new paradigm.

Also, Asheras is right: Buffing is better than nerfing, as galling as it may be.

There's a lot new players rolling around now, so to suddenly change game mechanics on them mid-stream would turn most of them off when the learning curve is already steep and retention is crucial for a declining player base.

Just accept the upward adjustment to X-builds and move on.

Or just roll gimps like I do.

It saves a lot of grief.  Wink
  

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Re: The experts on DDO, i.e. Fran and Chai
Reply #24 - Jan 23rd, 2018 at 3:36pm
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It turns out people play video games so they can feel op. Who knew, right? We all thought people just wanted to relive cartoonish versions of the greatest failures in their own lives.
  

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