Thanks again for the thoughtful replies, just gonna tap the highlight.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 12:39pm:


I think a balance in-between these extremes is what I'm getting at.  AC again did this.  They saw UO and were like, "No, people lost everything when they died until they introduced a BtC feature 4+ yeaars later."   So AC did have a feature where your body was recoverable, you could give friends permission to loot, and it was X-number of items that you lost (typically highest-value) which created a strategy to always have spare jewelry on you when you went to dangerous zones JUST in case it went pear shaped.  The other part to this is AC also increased the time ticker for your body's deterioration based on your level because you know, it's probably harder or more dangerous the higher your level, so you might have an hour or two to get your body as a level 1-10 but a level 100 character had 24-48 or maybe 100 hours (can't remember how the formula worked anymore, but it was definitely base don levels) before their corpse rotted and they lost their items.   If you opted to go red (PVP) I don't recall if (but probably) your lost items (not all of them) were lootable by other reds.  So there's that feature too.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 12:39pm:


Did WB have a stake in AC the last couple of years?  THey just shut it down like, not 24 months ago, maybe not 12 months ago?  I was talking to one of my vassals and ex-girlfriends -- she played til they turned the lights off.  Again, not a tactician type person. :-p SO she was quite happy to play AC for 15+ years.  We met in 2002 (late) on AC and in-person in 2003.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 12:39pm:


We'll see!  At least he could tell me how their licensing agreement works and is renewed.  If not Turbine, then someone for ADDO/UDDO, as long as they don't hold onto the corpse.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 12:39pm:


So my hope is to go somewhere beyond Elder Scrolls Online/Sandbox with a true D&D experience, possibly NC-17 type content, and create an AI that generates unique quests like a GM would randomly roll.   The idea that it's hard to craft dialogue and narrative that shows a concrete and well-thought out plot is starting to fade as more and more AIs write news articles. 

With the right authors your dynamic content for level-appropriate is going to happen.  Tally levels, high/low and assess classes and issue quests that are generated in this sandbox.  SWGs even was able to do part of this (spawning, persay).  In a sandbox you will have the potential of a griefer, but make the world big enough and them nabbing your xp will fade.  It's questionable if you lose your entire quest if you can still get the item, complete the task, (kill?) the target, etc even if it was a griefer that did it, you might get some of your reward from the quest and/or advance the quest progression.  Perhaps make it so the one item on the body is BtQ and cannot be picked up by the griefer.  Add the AC or UO mechanic (later implemented) where once you've looted, the body becomes public domain and the BtQ loot becomes available to the quest-owner.   And Add a 5 - 10 minute timer for a public domain release should the corpse not be looted by the griefer.

It's just an older concept regarding world-building that hasn't been explored well since AC and done in any sort of meaningfulness (SWGs) for a very long time.

But you make a very good point, how they did AC as a seamless world is tricky.

I actually do know some of the mechanics.  It's like any other zone -- the map loads, bit by bit, as you move forwards and backwards.  You run across the map.  As you run forward, NPCs spawn and exist on an outlier beyond your radar.  The same occurred in SWGs and I think possibly EQ.

So although you're not moving through instances, these were "areas" that dynamically filled based on player positions.  You could argue that each player was in control of their own instance, and that's why player Qs and maximum sprites were about the biggest thing regarding loading into AC (there were times the server was full).  Also, there was a maximum range any sprite was allowed to travel beyond its origin.  This geometry allowed the developers to code with certainty on a maximum sprite count against their servers based on maximum players and maximum MOBs allowed in a zone.  I think the math is a little fuzzy, but they certainly figured it out and that's how this "open world" persisted.  It also allowed players to learn what Kiting and Rubber Banding (and thus potentially exploiting these AI features as dumb AI features) was a thing.   This translated really well to SWGs in tactics and game play (and possibly EQ, didn't play, on discussed in my pen and paper groups since other players were on those online games).

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


Oh yeah, they did.

UO didn't, but they fixed it where they did.  But given they were the first real graphic MMO that had all this, it was really fun in the beginning (and frustrating).  You literally would sit by the River Brittania fishing all day just to save up to buy some gear so you could maybe go hunt a deer so you could maybe craft some leather hides to sell and hope in the middle of all the stuff outside of town you didn't run into "A Dread Lord" ie a PK with a lot of infamy.  Or even "The Dastardly"   I kept Kistilan at that fame level for awhile after I think you would not be flagged perma-red/grey (attackable) once they made pvp very opt-in and not "Hey, you're outside of town, time to kill you."

But in UO I played mostly when "pvp-opt" was not a thing so you could be attacked, but the stronger you grew (and it became obvious) the less-likely a rando was going to attack and only a group of PVPers.  And even then, there were tactics to foil their plans.  One guy played Ho Chi Mihn (like the Trail) and he used to think I was easy, but over time I pretty much would get attacked on him, switch it and be chasing him through Shame Dungeon in an effort to get him between a poison elemental and an Energy Vortex (a bad way to be) and finish him off with a good Energy Bolt (Corp Por) after his magic shield was surely dropped by the elemental/EV. 

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


Yeah.  TSR and SSI were better days regarding the licensing.  WotC really helped some of D&D, but there's other stuff like freelance novelists pitching novels and Dragonlance in particular where they've just shelved it in a pickled jar.  So, maybe an ADDO/UDDO could be done with the right names pitching it to get WotC's attention as SSG is not the end-all be-all most likely and maybe their NCA is expired by now -- typically a 5 year to 10 year thing.  Gotchya.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


I can actually code the self-writing "Narrator" portion due to Data Analytics at Boston U.  You wouldn't think it, but yes, part of my studies indicated Data Analytics was intrinsic to the AI coding of a self-writing editor.  I wouldn't be coding graphical stuff or deep level baseline back-end stuff.  I might be involved with UIX if I were on this kind of project.  Once a platform was developed I could code the objects fairly easily as well, but I would probably focus on the DA-AI to auto-generate quests and narration.  No two experiences alike, ever.  Well at some point it's the same thing, but new names, new reasons, etc and never the absolute same location, etc as well.  In a large open-box land, this would be the way to assure lots of exploration and unique experiences.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


So like, maybe not?   Every other shitty news site is using AI-editors to propogate short web-published articles.  The tech for the narration is there.  You need a good AI database and some good writers to curate many many many hooks and attributes coded to those hooks (if the AI mentions a Goblin overlord, the game assigns Goblins as one of your primary threats in the quest and an NPC is named that may be a goblin/hobgoblin and given a class, stats, etc linked to your quest). 

Developing the framework would take time, populating would take time.  I think you code the basic framework in 6 months, populate with a year of Matt Mercer-style content creators, etc.  The best thing is many of these people already have auto-generated apps that follow D&D rules regarding naming assignments, class assignments, etc.  A lot of the curating is at their fingertips and needs to populate the AI Narration Database.

Of course there will be hard-lined quests as well and Unique quests.  I think maybe say 2,000 unique "Grand Master" quests written with various classes and party levels and amazing loot assigned to them.  These would be triggered probably on a 1d1000 but best thing is you can invite people once someone has one assigned.  Diff Level may go up a bit, but the assumption is a methodical party will succeed, or you go solo.  Some quests will probably state "Do not go solo" or "You will need a partner."  It just depends.

High-end content may be a little AC-based.  Portals, etc into unique instances.  So you may have a few "zones" in that regard.  Also, if it's Unified, the Planes and other Primes will be Instances that also link through the Ethereal (Spelljammer).   The Astral is more like "The World Between Worlds" of Star Wars and similarly links things.  And then there's just Sigil and every frigg'n Plane you could ever want to visit. 

If not starting on Sigil, (Say starting on Toril or Oerth, then Sigil should be one of the easier places to get to by level 5+.  Beyond Sigil, well, risky for sure.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


So yeah, have you watched Critical Role on Twitch TV/YouTube?  It's to the point where D&D can be the WoW-Killer with the right redesign.  Joe Manganiello's friends are like, A-list directors and actors that come to play D&D in a literal dungeon man-cave in L.A.  I do dream big, though, regarding this stuff.  It would take some weight. Heavy.  Back to the Future style.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


I was one of the "Founder/Subscribers" whatever they promoted for Dark & Light (whatever I paid for ie Legendary Sub, I got to start with a Dragon mount).  Played it.  It was really neat!  Riding a Dragon, right? Flying everywhere?  Yeah, I think it was an investment fraud too.  It also was very hard to determine what the point of the game was!  The only thing was leveling that seemed to be "important."  And I recall at a certain point levels just started being earned after days upon days and I couldn't be bothered anymore -- it was definitely a grinder.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 4:16pm:


This is the kind of question to bring forward by bringing a little Talent from old Turbine (AC World Dev), bring in a little Bethseda Elder Scroll Dev Team, bring in a little Dark & Light and Eve Online Devs for immersive wow-factors in movement and immersion, and then ask these questions and nail them to an agile dev board on how to achieve the next generation MMO instead of making grindfests and instance-fragmentation (which allows duping, if I'm not too far off, as it sure allowed duping XP at one time).

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


I can definitely see that, I don't need more Wayans Bros rogue elves among other things.  The Dragonlance IP is hard to get them to push though -- it's the next thing I can think of that would make a new era of movies equivalent to Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones if done right.  Margaret Weis (she's on my FB friend's list) continues to say it's not happening, even with Joe Maganiello supposedly pushing a script with his big-named buddies in cinema. 

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


As Strake has noted, I do have to fix my truck before I start coding anything as a passion project, but I do have an idea.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


Yes, but that was years ago and they're literally scanning a few data sources and piecing together jargon to appear as if someone that spoke broken English was writing it and not an AI.  I thought it through, it is pretty easy to correct, particularly if your database is not based on scanning a random text, but utilizing very specific inputs in a very large library while scanning the objects interacting (character/class/level) and then modifying the adventure based on party size and total levels, real-time.  If someone drops out before the next set of quest-objects is generated, there may be a reduction in total mobs or mob levels.  Similarly, if another person joins, the adventure would scale-up real-time.   You could exploit the hell out of this by adding a level 20 to a party of five level 1 characters -- there will have to be some reasonable nullifying of experience and possibly even drops based on the addition of egregious level differences.  I digress....

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


I would actually like to play this demo.  Can you find it?!?

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


Hah!!!  So, short of a Dream Team Studio getting a development going and letting me join the team of writers and programmers since I wear both of those hats, I have waaaaaay too much going on.

My big projects left for 2020:  2 camper refurbs, 2 outhouses with composting toilets at my 2 developmental off-grid sites, a 12x20 cabin on the ledge for myself/airbnb, a 12x16 shed, gutting the 20' storage container so it's ready for building (Kitchen Tavern at Farm) whenever I want, getting myself down to Jacksonville AR to repair a roof, drywall, install new LVP in all bedrooms, some paint and a couple other updates to the AirBnB there before November, and thennnn if I've sold enough solar panels (I have had bout 770 donated so far, 400w each) I plan on taking some of the cash to develop a few Detroit properties this Winter.   

All while running a chicken farm.... with 7 dogs, 2 cats, 250 chickens.... *_*

It'd have to be a helluva proposition and enough money so I could pay for the care of the animals long-term.


I will be doing some coding I suspect after the Fall/Winter, particularly if I'm not developing properties at that time.  Working on a database and front-face interface for a ski lodge time share I have.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


LOL  Ahhhhhhhh  #willSmith

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


yeah!  Well, you're in luck because I remember my handle -- it was Kistilan!  Still only one place I've had a bad experience using that name -- it wasn't at D&L.    And I did the same thing with the winged beast -- pointed at a horizon on the world, went to sleep for a few hours, work up and found myself at another amazing location, still flying, taking it all in.  It was a wyvern, or a dragon?  I'm thinking the mount was a Wyvern?  And yeah, max'd the res at the time with my Shuttle computer.  It was awesome.

noamineo wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 10:51pm:


I don't want to talk ill of Jerry, I get it.  But I definitely was referring to the devs that set it up in 1999 -- at least a few of those old Turbine hats have to be still active in the programming sector, might be involved in gaming and might want to join that DDT (Dev Dream Team).


SPEAKING of D&D Alternates, I did find the latest reincarnation in Development.  MMORPG.com was pointing at them, but it's not really an MMO.  It's just an O-RPG for up to 4 friends to play, but using Forgotten Realms setting based on the cinematography & characters (pretty sure that's Drizzt in there).  The cinematic looked pretty interesting, would enjoy the rock n roll/ metal ambiance if they could equally temper it with Enya and Clannad Lore, Nightwish and My Darkest Days, etc.

Maybe you've seen it, maybe you've not.  Here's the link to the game's site (Dark Alliance).

https://www.darkalliance.com/

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


Ya know I wouldn't complain. I may be in a minority but I vaguely enjoyed the DnD movie despite having had, at that point, zero exposure to the IP. If they made another DnD movie, I'd see it.

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


In all seriousness a stand-alone(and actually serious) encounter generator would be really cool. I've frequently had to improvise sessions on the fly(and while I'm quite good at that) it'd be nice to have some tools to draw on.

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


Honestly? While I agree that it is technically possible, I'm also positive it would be crap. It's Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is crap. The only difference is an AI could generate far more crap far faster. It's just not a great idea. A handful of good people could make more good ideas a lot faster than a computer could spit out thousands of shit ones and the same group of people comb through them for the couple of good ones.

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


I sadly do not remotely recall what this game was called(and that's actually been bugging me for years - i wish i'd written it down). It wasn't a demo, though, it was just a person I'd met at the GDC showing it to me on his laptop(it wasn't a game he'd made, either). It was really quite fascinating. All I can remember with any certainty is he told me at the time it was for Mac only; and this being PowerPC days(I want to say it was 2008?). Anyway, if anyone knows any hardcore Mac fans maybe they can find the name. I'd actually like to play it myself(and have a Mac now).

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


Hey, I'm just askin ya to put your python where your mouth is


Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


I remember nothing from that time aside from some funny drama on the boards and making friends with a chinese gold farmer. Actually he wasn't a gold farmer himself, he worked for a company that did gold farming and was doing research on whether or not it would be economical to get set up in DnL. Funny shit, we made friends when the game wasn't even out.

So there were 2 permanent mounts unlocked according to which pack/how early you bought. I had the first generation which made a dragon which could take off from a standstill and land anywhere. The other pack had a gryphon that had to do a running start. I also recall craftable parachutes and hangliders and oh god that game was so much fun. You know, except all the important parts....

Funny story: it's actually that game that turned me OFF to procedurally-generated worlds. Since I couldn't level and I couldn't craft, and there was no loot at the time, I spent a lot of time just exploring the world. I'd look at the world-map, point my dragon in the direction of something interesting, and see what I could see. Thanks to the dragon's VTOL capabilities i could get out of trouble easy as fishin. I probably saw corners of the game no one else ever set foot in. What made exploration so compelling was how it was all built by hand. You could see the beauty, the intent, the dreams that went into it(yes the whole company may have been a scam, but there were definitely some passionate artists working there). Everywhere I landed I found little touches, things someone had taken the time to place. It was so breathtaking I really never got tired of it; I just got frustrated and went off to play other things, expecting the game would still be there. It wasn't.

Anyway, after an experience like that, seeing stuff generated by a random seed in minecraft was just... whatever. Like, ok, I should give a crap? This all exists thanks to a random number. There have been a few breathtaking sights, but while there's infinite space to explore there is very little to find, and that, to me, is boring.

Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:

I do. He's fat. And stupid. And selectively applies the forum rules however it suits him and to whoever is not sucking his cock hard enough. Fuck that guy. And his mustache.



Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


Ah but do they still have the kind of talent they once did? Michael Jordon is still alive and well, but do you think anyone is beating down his door to be the lead shooter for the 2024 Olympic Dream Team? Talent fades; having been great at something decades ago does not mean you are still good at it now. Especially if you've become complacent and rested on your laurels for far too long.



Kistilan wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 11:42pm:


Meh.

If there's one thing my experience with Dark and Light taught me, its "never get excited about a game until it's actually released".

I actually played a very early alpha of DnL(for all of 5 minutes), in Kentia Hall, and the LA Convention Center, at E3 2005. I remember the experience vividly. That little 5 minute muching about had me so excited. I followed the development, I kept on the site, I pre-ordered the game...

...and then it launched with 10% of the features it had advertised, was borderline unplayable, and quickly collapsed into a giant shitheap. The game I had expected to play for the next 20 years barely lasted, what, 2? And was unplayable for most of those.

Ever since then, unless a game is out and in release(not alpha, not beta, release), I don't care. I don't follow development cycles, I don't watch what's new or "about to come out". I don't eagerly follow anything, because I know I'll be dissapointed.

I don't give a single fuck.

Dark_Helmet wrote on Jul 16^th, 2020 at 11:44pm:

IIRC, Jerry showed up on Turbine's radar because he started DDOCast. They thought he'd make a good Community moderator so they offered him a job.

Tolero ran a bunch of DDO Fashion Shows on the Xoriat Server, I think? Anyway, she ran a lot of events as a player so they offered her a Community moderator job and then the Community Manager job later.

After a while, they moved her to the Marketing team and made her the "Brand Manager" and that's when they promoted Jerry to "Community Manager." Later, they made him the LotRO Community Manager as well.

Tolero is still the "Brand Manager" which, I guess, means she's responsible for the DDO Store and maybe also the LotRO store.

noamineo wrote on Jul 16^th, 2020 at 11:57pm:


Yeah, working with Jerry in the Stormreach Mayor Election we ran back in 2008, I didn't pick up that he was previously involved with Turbine until after Tolero got promoted and he was picked up to be the new Community Manager.

noamineo wrote on Jul 17^th, 2020 at 12:08am:


Did you have a link about the god's name Cordovan for Asheron's Call?

In Asheron's Call, the only being really close to a god was Asheron, who sent the last of his home world's survivors to another world called Dereth as the Olthoi stormed Asheron's Citadel. I'm not sure if Asheron himself died, it doesn't really say he made it and he just sent the others to Dereth.    At least I think it was The Olthoi that were the antagonist that forced Asheron to send his survivors away.

However, on Dereth the descendants of Asheron do fight olthoi and an Olthoi Queen.

Later, there is another raid/threat by the Revanants (sp?) which are kind of like wraith elementals of pure magic I guess?

Finally, Alpha Lassel (if I'm remembering this correctly) is discovered through another portal (Asheron's Call, I think his spell created multiple portals so his descendants could travel and escape the olthoi to other worlds is necessary).  This portal lead to a very strong version of Tuskers (a mid-to-high level enemy in Dereth) where the King of the Tuskers, Bobo, is another raid to fight.  Oh yeah, the other raid wasn't Revenants or Hollows although they may have been in the raid dungeon.  It was a Dark Knight type guy named Gaerlan with a "Gauntlet" kind of raid dungeon.

There's a 24 hour timer on the raids when they existed.  Myself and Olo-Eopia were known for running Boboaerlan (Bobo + Gaerlan) raids in about an hour on Harvestgain.  Mission success was 100% as long as Olo or myself were alive to fix any fuckeries.  Good times, fun raids. 

But yeah, I don't remember the gods either but figured it might have been a deeper lore or an add-on post-2004 (last time I seriously played AC).  Believe I logged on once or twice in 2005/6 to visit friends in game ande say hello to the monarchy I joined upon quitting active play and selling the mansion on ebay.   $$$   Good money at the time.  Originally owned by Dmitri, a long-standing alpha/beta monarch that I was a vassal to as my patron joined him (Rurouni Kenshin and later Nyx).  Both good players at the time 1999-2001.

Anyway....  fuck.  Memories.

noamineo wrote on Jul 17^th, 2020 at 12:53am:


Ya.

When did Massively become MassivelyOP?  That's new.

MMORPG.com exists.  MMOSITE.com is apparently getting a facelift or something since 2019.  Says they're coming back Soon^TM

I dunno.  I believe Asheron may have been alive, so if he was "alive," he definitely was not a static NPC, so that would one of the few special NPCs a GM would play for an elite event.

It would be interesting to find any reference to Cordovan outside of Turbine/SSG posts or updates.  Like find Cordovan in a greek mythology wiki for example.   I tried looking a little through search engines but haven't found much other than his community manager role and updates.  And apparently SSG's mandatory silence regarding the abrupt pulling of the AC Plug.