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Kensei Shuriken 2 (Read 12111 times)

harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #25 - Nov 24^th, 2016 at 3:06pm	Print Post
	The breakdown is that at end game stats/equipment/etc Having: Kensei Multi + T5 AA no Capstone + DWS in Fury Results in about 400,000 DP/60seconds in my model. That's without a lot of buffs and no AF or anything. Pretty much modeled to just be your dude really well geared standing there with Action Boosts. If you increase Doubleshot by 50 and give it 4 more Dex (and 2 more Base Damage) but you lose Kensei, you drop to about 360,000 D/60seconds (12% drop from losing Kensei net, after additional DPS of capstone). If you drop Sniper and keep Capstone and Kensei: you drop to about 321,000DP/60seconds. That's over 20%. No way to make Capstone make sense in my calcs, and they're very thorough.


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[] Madame President Offline Posts: 10532 Joined: Oct 16^th, 2015	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #26 - Nov 24^th, 2016 at 3:20pm	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 3:06pm: The breakdown is that... ...you're a massive homo; we got it.


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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5947 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #27 - Nov 24^th, 2016 at 7:29pm	Print Post
	fun stuff human here we come
	« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2016 at 7:29pm by WonderfulFoppyBint »
	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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Steelstar Ex Member	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #28 - Nov 24^th, 2016 at 8:41pm	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 2:42pm: So you're saying you prefer the build without Kensei +1 Crit? Not so much prefer it, but found that it's unavoidably better in actual game-play as things currently stand after playing it since the last week of October.� Of course I took the time to spread-sheet and calculate output. More importantly I have since the last week of October been running concurrently the variations with two identical test-bed toons with the same past lives, stats and gear. It's a hassle to set up and commit two completionist toons to testing, but well worth it after you can run them through the exact same scenarios one after the other to sight actual performance and outcomes rather than have to settle for predictive math and theory crafting and hope for the best. The practice eliminates the inherent bias that we all have to watch out for in that the results are immediate and you can compare and isolate any performance gains when one build has over the other as they occur. A nice side effect is that by building two full test beds you are much less likely to look for the results that you want simple out of personal preference or desire to be right about a build. Anyway as I said before good looking build Jak, and welcome back to playing and testing. I know you took quite a long break so it's good to see you back to the game and developing builds. I would love to see your 2 days worth of calculations, it must be several pages of spread sheets and a massive number of calculations and variations, you should post them. Cheers.
	« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2016 at 8:45pm by »

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davenot Ex Member	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #29 - Nov 24^th, 2016 at 9:45pm	Print Post
	Jakeelala, Steel, Am I right in assuming that both versions you are debating could be run on the same toon by just changing the AP and ED in between quests?


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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #30 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 1:53am	Print Post
	Quote: Jakeelala, Steel, Am I right in assuming that both versions you are debating could be run on the same toon by just changing the AP and ED in between quests? 100%. 8 Fighter or 8 Monk. I went 8 Monk because that was the only choice for me as I just used an old +5 Lesser Heart. I'm playing way too sporadic to be TR'ing without a really good reason anymore. 8 Fighter nets you a feat, but you lose some 10k Doubleshot and saves.


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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #31 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:14am	Print Post
	Steel wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 8:41pm: Not so much prefer it, but found that it's unavoidably better in actual game-play as things currently stand after playing it since the last week of October.� .... Unavoidably better? I mean considering the way this game plays at end game, since October, high burst DPS with IPS just melts long hallway packs of mobs (which is all end game is anymore), and then turns up DPS even more on Red Names. The non-capstone version simply does more damage, faster, than the capstone version now. Before you could get +1 multi and Sniper Shot then hands down Capstone all the way. So, I mean it's not like I don't play throwers 100% of the time. I'm not just modeling this damage output and then not playing. Also, the point of the damage calcs is to avoid bias by just modeling DPS output for a given build over a given time frame, summing the time-weighted average damage of each phase of active attack. For 20 seconds that looks like: T=0([Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec @X damage/sec] + T=1[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=6[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=7[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=12[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=13[7 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=20[Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec@X damage/sec] = A fucking lot of damage This is how I calculate the 400,000/360,000/320,000 numbers from before. Of course the calculation for each actions average damage is simply a lot of multiplying, but it's like 15-18 variables in my model so that took a long time to dial in so I could easily tweak them across several builds at once. But at this point, my average for in-game things like Adrenaline/Slayer and Adrenaline/Sniper are right on point with the models averages, at the low end since the model doesn't include too many buffs. Higher damage however would just increase the difference between them so it's moot.


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Grand Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #32 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 3:43am	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 2:51pm: I did 2 full days of modeling in Excel to try and find out for sure. Wow! two days of "modeling" cool buzz word use there Sobby, that must be a massive amount of "calculations" It must a huuuge amount of...... harharharhar wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:14am: T=0([Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec @X damage/sec] + T=1[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=6[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=7[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=12[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=13[7 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=20[Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec@X damage/sec] = A fucking lot of damage That took you two full days? ROFLMAO.� Fucking hell man, you never change do you? Here let me modify your amazing equation for you: harharharhar wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:14am: T=0([Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec @X damage/sec] + T=1[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=6[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=7[5 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=12[Adrenaline/Sniper 1 sec @Z damage/sec] + T=13[7 seconds of autoattack @Y damage/sec] + T=20[Adrenaline/Slayer 1 sec@X damage/sec] = My idea has to be right because it makes me cry when other people post about chuckers Now never mind me, I'll just sit back and watch you continue to make a silly ass of yourself and maybe if we really get lucky we can get 5FStep to come back over to this thread and really make you butthurt by pointing out when you make assumptions and mistakes! Please continue!�
	« Last Edit: Nov 25^th, 2016 at 3:45am by Grand »

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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #33 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 4:19am	Print Post
	The time part isn't the hard part, modeling all the different formulas for damage with toggles on them was. I mean, feel free to do your own math. You and steelstar. I'm just sharing what I learned, I don't have to prove anything to you, go ahead and keep running around however you want.


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davenot Ex Member	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #34 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 4:26am	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 1:53am: 100%. 8 Fighter or 8 Monk. I went 8 Monk because that was the only choice for me as I just used an old +5 Lesser Heart. I'm playing way too sporadic to be TR'ing without a really good reason anymore. 8 Fighter nets you a feat, but you lose some 10k Doubleshot and saves. Oh that's great to hear. Grand wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 3:43am: ~Bullshit drama~ I usually only expect to see Puerto Potty trying to force himself into decent active threads like this for drama and attention, not cool man.


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Grand Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #35 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 7:43am	Print Post
	Sure thing Dad... I will leave sobby and his '2 full days' alone. And now let me guess, you're not upset with me you're just disappointed.


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Steelstar Ex Member	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #36 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 10:54am	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:14am: Unavoidably better? I mean considering the way this game plays at end game, since October, high burst DPS with IPS just melts long hallway packs of mobs (which is all end game is anymore), and then turns up DPS even more on Red Names. The non-capstone version simply does more damage, faster, than the capstone version now. Before you could get +1 multi and Sniper Shot then hands down Capstone all the way. Yeah, unavoidably better. I had pretty high hopes for the crit mode when they looked like they might fix it but the past 4 weeks of playing and playing twin test toons have proven to my dismay that it's no silver bullet and the capstone route is better. That doesn't mean your idea isn't good or doesn't have merit, if fact let me remind you again that I complimented it twice so far in this thread alone. The fact that the capstone route has proven superior in game reflects in no way on you. As far as calcs and bias, the fact is that theory crafting and spread-sheeting numbers lend themselves very easily to bias, mostly unconscious bias I may add. People go into it with a result that they have either assumed ownership or preference for in mind. They then pursue that conclusion and will tweak the numbers or test states to make that happen. It's very common, and it happens to us all. Also as you well know, what looks like a apple on paper quite often turns out to be a orange once it's put through the turbine code and bugs. That's why I play, play, play, builds and then hand them off to others to play, play, play because theory crafting only goes so far, and all too often has a little surprise waiting for it down the track. I am sure that anyone who uses you lay-out will have a great time and enjoy the power immensely, it will only be build-wonks like you, munk, 5fs, and myself that really notice or care about the scale of build effect and even then it takes a great deal of testing and playing for us to get that. Good looking build Jak. Grand wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 7:43am: assorted trolling Stop being dickish and take that crap elsewhere grand, it's not helpful and totally unfunny.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #37 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 1:02pm	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 3:29am: Finally, Sniper Shot helps to maximize the SA damage. With Smiting Arrows, Grim Precision, and Shattering Shot from Kensei, you can bypass: Precision 25 Shattering Shot 15 Smiting Arrows 25 Armor Piercing 28 Grim Precision 15 ---------------------- 98% Fort Bypass. That's BEFORE Destruction/Improved Destruction, Insightful Armor Piercing, Wrack Construct, etc. You can pretty much crit and Sneak Attack anything. Sniper Shot does not bypass sneak attack immunity. Fort bypass does not bypass sneak attack immunity. Your build does not have a way to bypass sneak attack immunity. The only ways to bypass sneak attack immunity are: Assassin's Trick (requiring 6 Rogue) Wrack Construct (requiring 3 Rogue) Shadow Mastery (AKA the 6th Shadowdancer core, requiring SD ED to be active.) http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack Quote: Targets immune to critical hits are also immune to Sneak Attack bonus damage. Note: Fortification debuffs such as Improved Sunder and Improved Destruction, and effects that allow you to bypass fortification, can partially break this immunity. Some creatures appear to be completely immune to sneak attacks. I personally confirmed this in the code a while back: http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1464380712/37#37

	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #38 - Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:50pm	Print Post
	Wouldn't be a build thread without FFS coming in and arguing a technicality no one else misinterpreted as an excuse to link to one of his other threads. I said pretty much. As in except for things that can't be sneak attacked. I'm aware Sniper shot only applies bluff. As do Deception proccing items. My point is Fort won't stop you from critting or from Sneak Attacking. You should have known I was talking about fort, in the context of talking about armor piercing.


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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3467 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #39 - Dec 5^th, 2016 at 5:19am	Print Post
	What if I don't wanna be holding no bow? Hybrid builds are gay as fuck. Constantly swapping weapons and shit.


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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5947 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: Kensei Shuriken Reply #40 - Dec 5^th, 2016 at 8:00am	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Nov 25^th, 2016 at 2:50pm: Wouldn't be a build thread without FFS coming in and arguing a technicality no one else misinterpreted as an excuse to link to one of his other threads. the devils in the details and we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bath water I agree that FFS chucked the baby this time to nitpick a different devil, MOFOs are pretty salty in the builds section anyway though---all you bitches, We should rename this the shine-box section. Here is someone face fucking a block of salt. Cheers http://sherellechristensen.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345295ab69e2013480f1f6b8970c-500...
	« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2016 at 8:02am by WonderfulFoppyBint »
	OUR GOD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q Right of Self-determination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE volt_ wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2017 at 4:43pm: Be a container for your genes to control your behavior in order to reproduce
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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3467 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #41 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 1:52am	Print Post
	WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Dec 5^th, 2016 at 8:00am: Here is someone face fucking a block of salt. Cheers http://sherellechristensen.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345295ab69e2013480f1f6b8970c-500... fify. Forums are hard, yo.


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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3467 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Monkcher ver.99999 Reply #42 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 1:57am	Print Post
	Look, if you wanna play a Monkcher, just play a Monkcher. but don't go around calling it a damn shuriken or Kensei build, noobs. Repeat after me: MANYSHOT+ BOW + 6 MONK levels = A MOTHERFUCKING MONCKHER


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Monkcher ver.99999 Reply #43 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 12:32pm	Print Post
	Alex DeLarge wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 1:57am: Look, if you wanna play a Monkcher, just play a Monkcher. but don't go around calling it a damn shuriken or Kensei build, noobs. Repeat after me: MANYSHOT+ BOW + 6 MONK levels = A MOTHERFUCKING MONCKHER� I concur.

	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #44 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:04pm	Print Post
	Monkchers have never included using a Shuriken 66% of the time (when Manyshot is on cooldown or to recharge Adrenaline). In fact they've always been 100% bow users. You're both fucking wrong.


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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #45 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:06pm	Print Post
	Also, arguing about bullshit categorical labels in order to further distinguish builds which are totally subpar (100% shuriken builds) is both disingenuous, and idiotic. Tell me some more


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #46 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:06pm	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:04pm: Monkchers have never included using a Shuriken 66% of the time (when Manyshot is on cooldown or to recharge Adrenaline). In fact they've always been 100% bow users. You're both fucking wrong. You could make up a new name for it. Monkshur?

	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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harharharhar Epic Poster Offline Girthless Trolllicker Posts: 3421 Joined: Aug 31^st, 2012 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #47 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:07pm	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:06pm: You could make up a new name for it. Monkshur? Credit where credit is due, that's not bad for a phonetic play. But I think Fury Shuri is still my favorite so far. Mobile Artillery however is probably most appropriate.


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Grand Ex Member I Love Drama!	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #48 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:18pm	Print Post
	How about "yet another chucker"? or "cry for help"?


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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3467 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Kensei Shuriken 2 Reply #49 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:40pm	Print Post
	harharharhar wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Anything with the word SHIT in it. The Shit Fury, The Shit Storm, The Monk Shit. Or my personal favorite "Triggered".
	« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm by Alex DeLarge »

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