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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) Severlin Siteings (Read 23322 times)
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #125 - Feb 24th, 2019 at 5:38pm
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EVC wrote on Feb 24th, 2019 at 2:26am:
no obsession here.

*Closes LiknedIn tab*

No obsession here either!
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #126 - Feb 25th, 2019 at 7:43pm
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EVC wrote on Feb 23rd, 2019 at 2:50am:
DDO has 8 servers now, right?


Here is a thought and one I think increasingly common based one what I see lagwise in the game and the "weekly server" restart crap. They have 8 Virtual Servers all running on a single machine. Maybe it's 2 machines running 4 and 4 but I lean towards them having the main part of the server running as one machine perhaps with the game DB virtualized on a second SQL cluster of 2-3 machines to cover all the worlds.

Given modern practices on VMs that may be what they have done and why we will likely never see the "server" consolidation since from their prospective they already have.

This is of course just a suspicion on my part naturally but I'd say it's reasoned.
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #127 - Feb 25th, 2019 at 11:20pm
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I'd be willing to bet real money they have at least a two-node MS SQL cluster. They're not THAT hard to set up. I set one up myself for a large medical practice some years ago.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #128 - Feb 25th, 2019 at 11:26pm
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How many man hours to set it up? 
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #129 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 10:28am
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Sev apparently has an interview scheduled with ddoplayers on the 5th. Drac is asking the community for questions.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #130 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 12:50pm
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Bishop wrote on Feb 25th, 2019 at 11:26pm:
How many man hours to set it up? 

About 16.

I had to setup both servers from the ground up including the OSes as well as SQL. I also had to implement an iSCSI link between the cluster and the server where the main EMR program resided.

It was the first time I had done iSCSI and setup an SQL cluster so it took longer than I  could probably do it today.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #131 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm
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Technomage wrote on Feb 25th, 2019 at 11:20pm:
I'd be willing to bet real money they have at least a two-node MS SQL cluster. They're not THAT hard to set up. I set one up myself for a large medical practice some years ago.

One of the devs stated something a year or two ago indicating that at least some of the databases DDO runs on aren't SQL.  It's apparently some custom, in-house bs.  If true it explains a lot of the current problems, even if it doesn't excuse them.

They probably do use SQL for some of it though.
« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:15pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #132 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:39pm
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Digimonk wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
One of the devs stated something a year or two ago indicating that at least some of the databases DDO runs on aren't SQL.  It's apparently some custom, in-house bs.  If true it explains a lot of the current problems, even if it doesn't excuse them.

They probably do use SQL for some of it though.


In 1997/98 Turbine (than known as Second Nature) signed an agreement with Microsoft which required they use MsSQL and some other Microsoft Products for their game engines.   All version of the game engine developed by Turbine used and still use MsSQL.

In 2009 Turbine bought out Microsoft's investment into their games rumored to be approximately $18 Million.    A few years later, around 2013, Turbine investigated moving from MsSQL to other options, I would guess Oracle Database, but it was determined it was too difficult to retrofit into the existing games.  I was told that Infinite Crisis used a different SQL backend than the other games, added to the complexity and complication of developing and supporting that game.

To complicate matters, I am fairly certain that SSG runs multinode MsSQL on RHEL for each shard rather than on Windows Server.

The challenge with any Database isn't installation or basic configuration, it's tuning (advanced configuration) and maintaining.   A good DBA is worth their wait (pun intended) in plat.
« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:40pm by hyplo »  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #133 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 2:06pm
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Technomage wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 12:50pm:
About 16.

I had to setup both servers from the ground up including the OSes as well as SQL. I also had to implement an iSCSI link between the cluster and the server where the main EMR program resided.

It was the first time I had done iSCSI and setup an SQL cluster so it took longer than I  could probably do it today.



Always the way isn't it? I enjoy when I get a chance to master a task and crank down the time and resources over a series.
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #134 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 8:15pm
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hyplo wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
In 1997/98 Turbine (than known as Second Nature) signed an agreement with Microsoft which required they use MsSQL and some other Microsoft Products for their game engines.   All version of the game engine developed by Turbine used and still use MsSQL.

In 2009 Turbine bought out Microsoft's investment into their games rumored to be approximately $18 Million.    A few years later, around 2013, Turbine investigated moving from MsSQL to other options, I would guess Oracle Database, but it was determined it was too difficult to retrofit into the existing games.  I was told that Infinite Crisis used a different SQL backend than the other games, added to the complexity and complication of developing and supporting that game.

To complicate matters, I am fairly certain that SSG runs multinode MsSQL on RHEL for each shard rather than on Windows Server.

The challenge with any Database isn't installation or basic configuration, it's tuning (advanced configuration) and maintaining.   A good DBA is worth their wait (pun intended) in plat.

Source?

I'm citing a semi-recent, dev quote.

  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #135 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 10:08pm
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Turbine's relationship with Microsoft at founding and with AC is well documented. 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/turbine-buys-asherons-call-license-back-from-m...
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #136 - Feb 26th, 2019 at 11:24pm
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Asheras wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Turbine's relationship with Microsoft at founding and with AC is well documented. 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/turbine-buys-asherons-call-license-back-from-m...

Yes, but that makes no mention of deals or stipulations regarding what databases they use for the core game code.

For all that article gives us, they could be using MongoDB.
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #137 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 2:47am
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C'mon guys, you know they've already converted everything into NoSQL.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #138 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:23am
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Digimonk wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 11:24pm:
Yes, but that makes no mention of deals or stipulations regarding what databases they use for the core game code.

For all that article gives us, they could be using MongoDB.


Try using wikipedia sometime...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asheron%27s_Call

Quote:
Development
AC was developed by Turbine Entertainment Software and published by Microsoft. It had a multimillion-dollar development budget.[14] It was designed by Toby Ragaini (lead designer), Chris Foster, Eri Izawa, and Chris Pierson.[15] The development team consisted of 30+ full-time developers, including 6 artists, 4 game designers, 15 software engineers and 5 QA testers.[14] Asheron's Call was technically innovative for its time. It did not use zoning, a technique of partitioning the game world into zones that ran on different computers on a cluster. This caused delay when moving between zones. Instead Asheron's Call had a single seamless world. It used dynamic load balancing to determine which computer in the cluster controlled which location area. If one area became overpopulated and sluggish control of part of that location would pass to another computer with a lighter load.[16] Critical development software included Microsoft Visual C++ 5.0, Visual SourceSafe 5.0, Lightwave 5.5, and Photoshop 4.0[14] Asheron's Call uses Microsoft SQL Server for persistent game data.[citation needed] The original Asheron's Call client allowed computers to use either 3D or software graphics acceleration.[6] The modern client requires a DirectX 9.0 compatible video adapter w/ hardware T&L.
[19]

  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #139 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:49am
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 2:47am:
C'mon guys, you know they've already converted everything into NoSQL.


It's not so much a SQL as it is a RBT.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #140 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 11:11am
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hyplo wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 1:39pm:
The challenge with any Database isn't installation or basic configuration, it's tuning (advanced configuration) and maintaining.   A good DBA is worth their wait (pun intended) in plat.


I was at a game developer convention a few years back. I happened to be carrying an Oracle backpack. As I walked down the row of booths, someone from a company came out and flagged me down on the off chance I was a DBA and looking for work. DBAs are sought after.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #141 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm
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Digimonk wrote on Feb 26th, 2019 at 11:24pm:
Yes, but that makes no mention of deals or stipulations regarding what databases they use for the core game code.

For all that article gives us, they could be using MongoDB.


I unfortunately cannot link to the AC site directly anymore, it is no longer available, and google cache doesn't seem to be working for that web-site.   

When Asheron's Call was put into maintenance mode in 2014 Severlin (than the EP of AC and AC2) announced that both games would have their source code and tools necessary to run a private server available 'free'.    One of the requirements was a MsSQL server (32 bit) and the MsSQL tool kit.    You can find that information on many posts on other unofficial forums that are still available.

The group that has created the largest AC emulator server has painstaking worked for year(s) to convert to a transactional version of MySQL.

The Wikipedia Entry for Asheron's Call also has some information.

As AC, AC2, DDO, and LotRO all use the same game engine (updated for each game) and the same system team supported all four games at Turbine, it is unlikely that they strayed too far.    It also helps that I know the individual that was the Technical Lead (DBA) for Turbine until a few years ago.
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #142 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 1:07pm
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hyplo wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm:
I unfortunately cannot link to the AC site directly anymore, it is no longer available, and google cache doesn't seem to be working for that web-site.   

When Asheron's Call was put into maintenance mode in 2014 Severlin (than the EP of AC and AC2) announced that both games would have their source code and tools necessary to run a private server available 'free'.    One of the requirements was a MsSQL server (32 bit) and the MsSQL tool kit.    You can find that information on many posts on other unofficial forums that are still available.

The group that has created the largest AC emulator server has painstaking worked for year(s) to convert to a transactional version of MySQL.

The Wikipedia Entry for Asheron's Call also has some information.

As AC, AC2, DDO, and LotRO all use the same game engine (updated for each game) and the same system team supported all four games at Turbine, it is unlikely that they strayed too far.    It also helps that I know the individual that was the Technical Lead (DBA) for Turbine until a few years ago.


Excellent post
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #143 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 1:19pm
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The easiest DBMS system to move to from MSSQL is Sybase SQL Server... because back in the computer dinosaurs time they were the same species.

Moving to Oracle or any other DBMS from MSSQL is a huge project.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #144 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 1:45pm
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Asheras wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 10:23am:
Try using wikipedia sometime...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asheron%27s_Call


Try using your brain and better yet, Google sometime.  That link makes no explicit mention of DDO using SQL.  Even so, it's pretty safe to assume DDO does use SQL for at least some things.

I did the Googling for you this once.

Here's dumdum referencing something with the guild reknown system linked to SQL, so yes, they do use SQL.  https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/474557-The-latest-on-lag-and-game-perf...

But you do realize it's possible for "game engines" to use different back-end DB systems for different portions of the code, right?  Query syntax, ODBCs and APIs aren't exactly magic at this point.

Here's Lynn specifically stating that parts of the code are tied to non-traditional database - https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487074-Hey-Lynnabel-please-fix!?p=5984...

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that any of the various flavors of SQL would fall under most peoples' definition of "traditional database" which would indicate that portions of the game use something else.


« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2019 at 1:54pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #145 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 2:37pm
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Digimonk wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
Here's Lynn specifically stating that parts of the code are tied to non-traditional database - https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/487074-Hey-Lynnabel-please-fix!?p=5984....


That is not exactly what Lynabell said.
"Our recipes aren't kept in a traditional database."

It doesn't say DDO uses a non-traditional database rather that the recipes are not kept in a traditional database.
Specifically the recipes for crafting, and I believe Ran Gen loot as well, are not in a DB, rather a flat file on the server or your computer.  A specific flat file associated with what you are attempting to accomplish is loaded into memory in its entirety every time someone opens that specific UI, from the Stone of Change to the Green Steel Craft to the Cannith Crafting.       I'll look for the quote from noworries later. 
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2019 at 3:28pm by hyplo »  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #146 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 9:32pm
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hyplo wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 2:37pm:
That is not exactly what Lynabell said.
"Our recipes aren't kept in a traditional database."

It doesn't say DDO uses a non-traditional database rather that the recipes are not kept in a traditional database.
Specifically the recipes for crafting, and I believe Ran Gen loot as well, are not in a DB, rather a flat file on the server or your computer.  A specific flat file associated with what you are attempting to accomplish is loaded into memory in its entirety every time someone opens that specific UI, from the Stone of Change to the Green Steel Craft to the Cannith Crafting.       I'll look for the quote from noworries later. 

Holy hell.  At first I was going to argue with you, but then I realized I've made a terrible mistake.  Even though the bar of my expectations of SSG was already some indeterminate depth under the sewer, it seems it was not low enough and I have still underestimated them. 

The sort of retardation you just described, while almost unthinkable to any respectable dev, is exactly the sort of amateur hour shit they'd do. Worse, if this is true, it indicates that they apparently lack the minimal amount of skills required to convert that flat file to a database and the relevant queries...  /facepalm 

My bad.


« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2019 at 9:34pm by Digimonk »  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #147 - Feb 27th, 2019 at 9:48pm
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Digimonk wrote on Feb 27th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
The sort of retardation you just described, while almost unthinkable to any respectable dev, is exactly the sort of amateur hour shit they'd do. Worse, if this is true, it indicates that they apparently lack the minimal amount of skills required to convert that flat file to a database and the relevant queries...  /facepalm 


Your reaction probably mirrored mine when talking to noworries about the Cannith Crafting system and why Tubine/SSG did a bunch of stoopid shit with it that makes like no sense whats so fucking ever.
  
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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #148 - Feb 28th, 2019 at 7:05am
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OldCoaly wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 2:37pm:
"Engine level" indeed!

Sev is this guy: "Raise the soul stone"
After which, he got pretty butthurt for being called on not understanding how a pretty significant game mechanism works.

The game has been fucked for a long time, mostly because Experts have convinced themselves that they are "DAMN GOOD AT THEIR JOB".




Sev is still running the show at ssg.  He put out the lotro producers letter and is supposed to publish one for ddo soon.

As for knowledge of the "game engine" half the bugs in the game seem to be of the type where someone knows or thinks they know the "game engine" but can't be bothered to look at their change from the player perspective to ensure that they didn't cock up again.  Never learning from past mistakes is deeply rooted in the culture.
  

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Re: Severlin Siteings
Reply #149 - Feb 28th, 2019 at 11:47am
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My favourite Sevism is when he changed doubleshot on repeaters to work how he thought they already did out of spite for being wrong and being called on it
  
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