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Dagger Paladin? (Read 6040 times)

Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Dagger Paladin? Nov 18^th, 2019 at 2:59pm	Print Post
	All, I watched a Strimtom YouTube video on Paladins being fun up until Reaper and was intrigued by his suggestion of converting his dual-longsword Paladin to a dual-dagger one. My Assassin, who has Pain and Suffering, isn't all that fun for me anymore considering how high Fort saving throws are for mobs these days. I had been thinking about converting her to just a pure DPS/Sneak-Attack Rogue but the prospect of having a mere 1530 or so hit-points for a straight up DPS toon isn't appealing. Her MRR is piss-poor due to being limited to Light armor but her PRR is decent at 165. I'd like to get the PRR up to around 200 and the MRR to at least 150. Heavy armor will go a long way toward reaching those goals. I am, therefore, considering a TR into an Aasimar and trying his dagger Pally idea. My biggest concern before I actually do the TR is what the level distribution should look like. I see two real possibilities: 20 Paladin and 15 Pal/5 Rngr. I'm definitely going to put 41 points into the Vistani tree. I'm just not sure I want to take the tree's Tier 5 abilities. The Tier 5 abilities of Tempest look better, but I am not sure they make up for the opportunity cost of being able to put AP into other trees like KotC or more points into the Aasimar tree. Have you all any thoughts you could share about this dilemma? Thanks.

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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HelloKitty Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 57 Joined: Feb 27^th, 2019	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #1 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 4:18pm	Print Post



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Carpone Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1695 Joined: Jul 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #2 - Nov 18^th, 2019 at 9:45pm	Print Post
	The only thing worse than a Strimtom build is a Tilo build.


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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3489 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #3 - Nov 19^th, 2019 at 2:04am	Print Post
	This is terrible in every imaginable way. in KoTC, beyond Divine Might which uses Turns (ugh...) - the tree is absolutely worthless sack of shit. Why not just play a full 20 ranger tempest, huh? Don't cry about 100MRR cap, you should have enough evasion for most things outside of THTH. If you're really hellbent on doing a medium armor, just do a Vistani Fighter, probably. It's not gonna be as good DPS as Assassin tho. FYI, Wolfs are the kings of Medium armor DPS


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crunch Stormreaver Piker Offline Posts: 745 Location: Europe Joined: Mar 20^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #4 - Nov 19^th, 2019 at 2:19am	Print Post
	1) Wait for the KotC update instead. 2) If that's not an option, make sure to grab Vol deity and consider Divine Crusader - The Book of War: Wrath of the Divine: While wielding a Favored Weapon in your Main Hand, you gain +1 to Hit and Damage for every 2 Religious Lore Feats you have with all equipped weapons and shields.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #5 - Nov 19^th, 2019 at 9:46am	Print Post
	I would recommend making your assassin less squishy. You should be able to get 50ish dodge, 200ish AC, 100% defensive roll, you can even make a sentient weapon swap with the Nystul's set to up your MRR cap for when you are going to get spammed with unevadeable energy/spell damage. I know you're not big on reaper, but you should at least get 21 points and throw them in the defense tree for 120 fulltime hp. That makes a big difference on a low hp build. Obviously, gear is also a big deal: Wind Howler Mask: Insightful Dex 9, Doubleshot 12, Relentless Fury, Tendon Slice 16 The Family's Blessing Raid Necklace: Quality Assassinate+2, Insightful Armor Piercing +16, Deadly +17, Deception+18 CC Trinket (Diversion 23, Sheltering 38, Insightful Physical Sheltering 18) Legendary Mantle of Fury (Cloak): Constitution +19, Raging Resilience (+4 Fortitude), Doublestrike 22%, Dodge +19%, Green Augment Slot, Adherent of the Mists Set (Legendary) Legendary Braided Cutcord (Belt): Quality Dodge +4%, Blurry, Dexterity +19, Quality Dexterity +4, Green Augment Slot, Silent Avenger Set (Legendary) Ring of the Silver Tongue Ring: Improved Deception, Insightful Deception Att/Dmg, Assassinate, Insightful Assassinate Celestial Ruby Ring Ring: Nearly Finished (STR, DEX, or INT +8/21), Stunning+9/+23, Accuracy +12/+33, Ghostly Hammerfist Gloves: Insightful Doublestrike, Cannith Combat Infusion, Seeker +8/+21, Insightful Deadly +2/+8 Shadow Sprinters Boots: Speed 30%/30%, Hide +16/+22, Move Silently +16/+22, Quality Resistance Legendary Bracers of the Fallen Hero (Bracers): Strength +19, Insightful Constitution +9, Stunning +22, Quality Physical Sheltering +12, Green Augment Slot, Adherent of the Mists Set (Legendary) ir'Kesslan's Most Prescient Lens Goggles Minor Artifact: Maximum Filigree Slots: 3, Dexterity +22, Dodge +22%, Parrying +10, Force Absorption +20% Wildcard Light Armor: Fortification +94%/+214%, Physical Sheltering +19/+54, Healing Amplification +30/+85, False Life +29/+81
	« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2019 at 9:53am by 5 Foot Step »
	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #6 - Nov 19^th, 2019 at 1:24pm	Print Post
	crunch wrote on Nov 19^th, 2019 at 2:19am: 1) Wait for the KotC update instead. 2) If that's not an option, make sure to grab Vol deity and consider Divine Crusader - The Book of War: Wrath of the Divine: While wielding a Favored Weapon in your Main Hand, you gain +1 to Hit and Damage for every 2 Religious Lore Feats you have with all equipped weapons and shields. 1. Waiting for the KotC pass is definitely a prime consideration. 2a. Blood of Vol is the obvious deity choice despite the fact it's a Lawful Evil deity. Thanks, Turbine/SSG for making alignments almost irrelevant! 2b. Divine Crusader is an overall decent choice for an Epic Destiny, for sure. I'd just like to see more Melee Power and PRR/MRR in it. That "Book of War: Wrath of the Divine" destiny power is super nice. That coupled with the possibility that KotC will be much better speaks to the possibility that pure Paladin would be the way to go. Thanks for your perspective!

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Edrein Shroud Slacker Offline Master of Melee Undead (Gimps) Posts: 1005 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #7 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 2:59pm	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Nov 19^th, 2019 at 1:24pm: 2a. Blood of Vol is the obvious deity choice despite the fact it's a Lawful Evil deity. Thanks, Turbine/SSG for making alignments almost irrelevant! A bit late to the party and an aside, but I brought this up when I was on the PC. The general explanation they have is it's both a licensing issue and their logic is: The Blood of Vol is essentially just the Emerald Claw as explained in the necropolis quests. So you're not actually a member/follower of the Blood of Vol (which is literally the elite vampire only portion of the clergy that secretly pulls the strings behind the Emerald Claw). The reason that came up was due to me pushing for the Blood is the Life to be changed to an outright vampire shroud toggle for divines. Also in Eberron the alignment of a deity doesn't have to match the alignment of their follower. Kind of a silly rule but it is what it is. So good guys can serve arguably Lawful Evil Vol. How the fuck you a lawful good paladin justifies belonging to a True Neutral to Lawful Evil religion that 100% builds its core edicts on selfishness and self-might is beyond me, but you do you I guess.


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Shinyshoes Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 754 Joined: Mar 8^th, 2019	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #8 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 3:52pm	Print Post
	Wow I imagine your logic would have been most unwelcome.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #9 - Jan 2^nd, 2020 at 10:28am	Print Post
	Edrein wrote on Dec 27^th, 2019 at 2:59pm: Also in Eberron the alignment of a deity doesn't have to match the alignment of their follower. Kind of a silly rule but it is what it is. So good guys can serve arguably Lawful Evil Vol. How the fuck you a lawful good paladin justifies belonging to a True Neutral to Lawful Evil religion that 100% builds its core edicts on selfishness and self-might is beyond me, but you do you I guess. True, that is part of the written Eberron setting. Crossing over to the other settings complicates things, though.

	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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Shinyshoes Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 754 Joined: Mar 8^th, 2019	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #10 - Jan 4^th, 2020 at 5:47pm	Print Post
	No worse than someone with the Sovereign Host running that shitty House P quest for the silver flame where you murder all the Host followers.


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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #11 - Apr 6^th, 2020 at 6:07am	Print Post
	Did you do this in the end? If so, how did it turn out? I'm looking at doing 3x Scourge Pali lives for the combined doublestrike & heal amp on my main. I've been playing with the builder seeing if anything fun and special was possible but I'm thinking I might stick with the original instinct which was Pal15/Rgr5.


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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #12 - Apr 6^th, 2020 at 11:28am	Print Post
	kum-gulp wrote on Apr 6^th, 2020 at 6:07am: Did you do this in the end? If so, how did it turn out? I'm looking at doing 3x Scourge Pali lives for the combined doublestrike & heal amp on my main. I've been playing with the builder seeing if anything fun and special was possible but I'm thinking I might stick with the original instinct which was Pal15/Rgr5. Yes, and it works VERY well. It's my highest DPS toon as of right now. Basic Info: Aasimar Pure 20 Paladin 231 PRR/114 MRR 16 AP Aasimar 24 AP Sacred Defender 43 AP VKF (Tier 5, Obvs.) 74% Doublestrike Offhand Doublestrike 20% Melee Attack Speed +18% Melee Power 227 90 STR 70 CON 40 CHA 2035 HP Epic Destiny: Fatesinger Twists aren't what I want them to be yet as I'm still working to max out the rest of my EDs.
	« Last Edit: Apr 6^th, 2020 at 11:36am by Technomage »
	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #13 - Apr 6^th, 2020 at 12:06pm	Print Post
	Cheers, that sounds promising! I'll give it a whirl then. My only reticence was around run speed - last time I played a Pali it was after a few Monk lives and pee-yew it stank. I may drop a bit of DPS for points into speed increase somewhere then if it's got plenty of deeps to spare. Perhaps Falconry. Thanks again!


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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #14 - May 15^th, 2020 at 11:12am	Print Post
	Been enjoying this! 22 now and at 21 it felt more powerful than its prior life as a Monk at any point in Epic. More single target melting than AoE with my set up but impressive nonetheless. I enjoyed tinkering around with 5 Ranger at first, being able to switch around AP and enjoying a different build flavour but as I've settled into it I've found I'm deeper into SD for the 10% speed and only into Tempest enough to get Sprint Boost. Sooo, I'm thinking about dropping to /2Rgr for the next life, probably /3Rog there for some SA and other bits. But I've convinced myself I've missed some other compelling reason to keep /5Rgr. Any thoughts?


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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #15 - May 15^th, 2020 at 12:11pm	Print Post
	No additional thoughts beyond concern about spreading AP so thinly across multiple enhancement trees, but if you can do it, by all means do so. I can't spend any more that 83 APs because I refuse to do all those past lives.

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #16 - May 15^th, 2020 at 3:58pm	Print Post
	Thank you! Yes, the AP is a concern but I don't mind resetting every few quests if need be, there's nothing else to spend plat on. I tend to switch between attack and defense oriented, or removing SA in undead/construct quests, or just for flavour, as needed these days rather than sticking rigidly with one setup. Much obliged! Not sure I would've made the build without finding a thread validating it wasn't a very shit idea so cheers.


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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #17 - May 20^th, 2020 at 9:21am	Print Post
	Bah! They twigged how fun broken Confront was. I'll miss spamming that at bosses. Quote: Epic Destinies: Divine Crusader: Confront Any Foe now properly enforces its 2-second cooldown.


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Alex DeLarge Epic Poster Offline Get ready for some of the 'ol in-out, in-out Posts: 3489 Location: Foggy Albion Joined: May 11^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #18 - May 20^th, 2020 at 9:31am	Print Post
	kum-gulp wrote on May 20^th, 2020 at 9:21am: Bah! They twigged how fun broken Confront was. I'll miss spamming that at bosses. Didn't you know? It was causing lag on the dark side of the server. At least that's what devs claim it to be, lololo


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #19 - May 20^th, 2020 at 10:21am	Print Post
	kum-gulp wrote on May 20^th, 2020 at 9:21am: Bah! They twigged how fun broken Confront was. Boo!

	Build links Endgame Gear Guide Cannith Crafting Planner link Warning: May contain outdated cultural depictions.
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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #20 - Jun 3^rd, 2020 at 9:42am	Print Post
	On the dropping more Ranger levels, in case any future readers find it useful: I ended up keeping 3 Ranger levels to get the 10% offhand core in Tempest. I also decided to go Fighter instead of Rogue for the other two levels because then I can get some of that sweet Spring Attack leap. Having tried that flavour of split on the second Iconic life, my experience has been It loses some flexibility to up DPS when wanted but is more fun to play overall. The core of Vistani & Paladin is strong enough you don't need to go overboard prioritising DPS in every choice, at least not for the way I run quests.
	« Last Edit: Jun 3^rd, 2020 at 9:42am by kum-gulp »

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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #21 - Jun 3^rd, 2020 at 3:21pm	Print Post
	kum-gulp wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2020 at 9:42am: 3 Ranger levels to get the 10% offhand core in Tempest. unless I am way too high right now, VKF has a tier 4 20% offhand attack increase to bring gtwf to 100%.

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #22 - Jun 3^rd, 2020 at 4:03pm	Print Post
	Oh yes you're right, thanks for that. I'd missed it sitting at 110%. Duh. Still it's like getting a free point back, so thanks to my dumb ass for that.


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Tspoon Titan Demolisher Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 396 Joined: Aug 30^th, 2013	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #23 - Jun 25^th, 2020 at 7:34pm	Print Post
	Technomage wrote on Apr 6^th, 2020 at 11:28am: Aasimar Why Aasimar and not a class with a charisma bonus? I am assuming the extra hands and healing amp?
	« Last Edit: Jun 25^th, 2020 at 7:35pm by Tspoon »

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Technomage Epic Poster Offline And so it begins... Posts: 4444 Location: Tucson, AZ Joined: Aug 27^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: Dagger Paladin? Reply #24 - Jun 25^th, 2020 at 7:45pm	Print Post
	Tspoon wrote on Jun 25^th, 2020 at 7:34pm: Why Aasimar and not a class with a charisma bonus?� I am assuming the extra hands and healing amp? Healing Amp, yes. Healing Hands, also yes. Since my Dagger Pally is strength-based, the 2 extra strength from the racial cores is nice as well.

	Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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