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Normal Topic Alchemist is bad, change my mind (Read 5953 times)
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Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Jan 28th, 2020 at 9:47am
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Up to preview, alchemist:

All of the casting entirely outclassed by sorcerers
All of the ranged utility is better in a typical post-nerf inquis
The buffs are nice to have but really not enough to justify anything

Maybe useable splashing 6~ levels into inquisitive, but that's pretty much it

Dissolve is a poor man's hurl

Mostly useless. Please change my mind.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #1 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 9:52am
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Sounds like another Arti.
  

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #2 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 12:59pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Jan 28th, 2020 at 9:52am:
Sounds like another Arti.

Well Steelstar probably created it so, yeah.
  

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #3 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 4:19pm
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My plan to maintain completionist is to just run 8 lvls of alch with 6 rogue and 6 ranger.  Should be ok for heroics.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #4 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 4:31pm
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raybob wrote on Jan 28th, 2020 at 4:19pm:
My plan to maintain completionist is to just run 8 lvls of alch with 6 rogue and 6 ranger.  Should be ok for heroics.

My plan is to not play it at all.
  

Do not try the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocation of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things.

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #5 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 4:40pm
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Alchemist CC cooldowns are far too long: 90 sec for Mass Flesh to Gold, 60 sec for Flash Freeze.  Bootled Boost spell animations are slow af.  Even with Quicken it's a slow animation.

Apothecary is lame.  It's a retread of average abilities from other trees, or minor bonuses of little significance.  Completely uninteresting other than 20% runspeed, but it's T4.

Vile Chemist TWF 14 sec kill in LD is fine for an actual live build.  Capstone and T5 sucks compared to Vistani.

Vile Chemist is an ok thrower.  Need to test how 8/6/6 shuri T5 DWS compares with the new AF scaling.

  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #6 - Jan 28th, 2020 at 7:06pm
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The energy needed to play it just to make it "yeah it's sorta okay you know it's kinda new with some decent stuff" means that the plebs and whales will never master it or contribute in any significant way with it, and the perpetually angry assholes who play this game while loathing it (you, dear reader) will still run Sorc lives for racials/epics and whatever FOTM is best for endgame.

To think I was actually hoping for an additional "healer" class in this game.

wtf is wrong with me
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #7 - Jan 29th, 2020 at 4:33pm
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Carpone wrote on Jan 28th, 2020 at 4:40pm:
Alchemist CC cooldowns are far too long: 90 sec for Mass Flesh to Gold, 60 sec for Flash Freeze.  Bootled Boost spell animations are slow af.  Even with Quicken it's a slow animation.

Apothecary is lame.  It's a retread of average abilities from other trees, or minor bonuses of little significance.  Completely uninteresting other than 20% runspeed, but it's T4.

Vile Chemist TWF 14 sec kill in LD is fine for an actual live build.  Capstone and T5 sucks compared to Vistani.

Vile Chemist is an ok thrower.  Need to test how 8/6/6 shuri T5 DWS compares with the new AF scaling.


Note on the. Vile Chemist thrower - the T5 Chemical Weapon simple weapon thrown attack speed bonus doesn’t work at all. Even before hitting the thrown attacks speed bonus cap.

Looks like Alchemist could be a nice splash on existing throwers, though.

Might also be one or the few classes that could still do Inquisitive since 1) the T5 Vile Chemist stuff is garbage and 2) poison damage plus law damage can add up to make up for some of the loss of other damages and attack speed loss.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #8 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 3:07am
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NOTpopejubal wrote on Jan 29th, 2020 at 4:33pm:
Inquisitive

There are just too many insurmountable nerfs, and all at once, coupled with a shift away from the ranged playstyle itself, with the IPS nerf.

Inquisitive could have been nerfed slightly less. It is not even worth dps testing as is, because it is not worth playing it over all the throwers or the Volley Mech core 18 with NHB build. I believe adjusting the reaper debuff for ranged and magic would have been the more elegant solution. If they wanted to balance for heroics or epic elite then Sorc should be illegal.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #9 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43am
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@Rubins, you think?

The IPS nerf is a bad approach, sure

Inquis nerf is relevant, alright

But do you really think there's a build that out-does post-nerf inquis at what it does?
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #10 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 7:42am
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Caster testing only, since first preview they made heal flasks terrible.
They were ok  on first round, on 2nd they are not usable, noone will wait for that animation in r10s to hit you, also slas suffer hard targeting so you can missfire it into the roof.

Damage spells,multi vial nerf was bad, really bad, ccs are okish since they had like 2 and half minutes duration on r10 for whatever d fk reason.
Damage was okish, amazing for aoe, for single target it was decent at most.
Melle poison spells did not work, ambition dice was worded incorrect, always assumed it was a dot but its just a on hit, cds are all over the place, the actual dots do not work so no proper dps test can be done.

Biggest problem is lack of any kind of proper cc for reapers, any kind of healing like divines do for spot healing.
Class feels unfinished and all the feedback we gave them during first preview was ignored for the 2nd.
I like the free 3 frog dc and free 60 sp from it, feels like a ok class for heroic trs, has potential to be very strong if they fix stuff and improve it in all the places we pointed out to improve it.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #11 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 7:48am
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I tested the numbers with DPS alchemist, I didn't see it anywhere near viable compared to sorcerer or even meteor wizard.

You're phrasing this like alchemist CC is any good, but the way I see it no spell they have on 60-second cooldown would outclass mass hold or wail, even on a 9-second cooldown.

It feels like they're just unviable, both on the first preview and the second. Am I missing something?
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #12 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 12:16pm
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Linker wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43am:
post-nerf inquis

Mech tree nerfed.
Reload speed nerfed.
Law dice and their scaling nerfed.
Doubleshot halved.
IPS nerfed.

Inquisitive post-nerf is a giant pile of dogshit. Like the combined creativity of all SSG devs.
  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #13 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 1:01pm
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Linker wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 7:48am:
I tested the numbers with DPS alchemist, I didn't see it anywhere near viable compared to sorcerer or even meteor wizard.

You're phrasing this like alchemist CC is any good, but the way I see it no spell they have on 60-second cooldown would outclass mass hold or wail, even on a 9-second cooldown.

It feels like they're just unviable, both on the first preview and the second. Am I missing something?

If you actually tested, you'd know that Flesh to Gold, Mass Flesh to Gold and Flash Freeze are all 6 sec cooldowns.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #14 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 1:51pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 12:16pm:
Mech tree nerfed.
Reload speed nerfed.
Law dice and their scaling nerfed.
Doubleshot halved.
IPS nerfed.

Inquisitive post-nerf is a giant pile of dogshit. Like the combined creativity of all SSG devs.

Don't forget Ratcatcher nerf which is essentially an additional nerf on Inquisitives from 8 to 26, if not 29.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #15 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43pm
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Digimonk wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 1:51pm:
Don't forget Ratcatcher nerf which is essentially an additional nerf on Inquisitives from 8 to 26, if not 29.

Oh, you think we covered it all? Because I forgot about the few second delay from starting your NHB timer to being able to actually use it.

But, wait. There's more : If you had a good hide score, Scion Ethereal got nerfed as well.


Did we get them all? 8? nerfs? Seems legit

  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #16 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 5:10pm
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Digimonk wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 1:51pm:
Don't forget Ratcatcher nerf which is essentially an additional nerf on Inquisitives from 8 to 26, if not 29.


For some reason this is the one that pisses me off the most.  It took me like 7 times through the dog shit quests of Threnal to get this and it was so nice for leveling.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #17 - Jan 30th, 2020 at 5:15pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43pm:
Oh, you think we covered it all? Because I forgot about the few second delay from starting your NHB timer to being able to actually use it.

But, wait. There's more : If you had a good hide score, Scion Ethereal got nerfed as well.


Did we get them all? 8? nerfs? Seems legit



And to think all they had to do was say "double shot applies at 50% to dual shooting" and be done with it.  I'm starting to think they don't really know what they are doing.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #18 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 1:26am
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Ulysses wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 5:10pm:
For some reason this is the one that pisses me off the most.  It took me like 7 times through the dog shit quests of Threnal to get this and it was so nice for leveling.


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*On Live - 14-20/x4
*On Lama - 16-20/x4
  

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #19 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 3:42am
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43pm:
few second delay from starting your NHB timer to being able to actually use it.

Just checked live, fusilade does not start its timer until the 3 second wind up is finished. assuming it will do the same for deadly rain timer. hope the lama version is reduced a bit than what we have on live.

I think using into the mists swap now has to be done after your NHB starts ticking, which is a slight nerf since you have to try and get thru one more sentient swap after swapping deadly rain, while nhb ticks down. Might be the same as using into mists swap and burning the 3 seconds of it on the fusilade wind-up. Either way it gets the short-end here.

  

Mockduck wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 2:20pm:
I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #20 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 4:45am
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Everyone getting mad over nerfs and i'm here getting mad over the xbow instaopener bug lol
  

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #21 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 5:23am
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 31st, 2020 at 3:42am:
fusilade does not start its timer until the 3 second wind up is finished


but you can also cheese it by non-crossbow weapon swap during activation to get immediate use on LIVE.
  

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #22 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 11:10am
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Halfmaniac wrote on Jan 31st, 2020 at 4:45am:
Everyone getting mad over nerfs and i'm here getting mad over the xbow instaopener bug lol

This, biggest nerf in the game since dupe and recycle fix.
  

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The D&D rules you were familiar with were too simple to understand, so we're continuing our move away from them to needlessly confusing subsystems that will make your play experience less fun and invalidate old builds and loot. We hope you have fun working out what the fuck MRR, PRR, MP, SP, RP, CL, MCL and all the other bullshit we made up whilst drunk means.

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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #23 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 4:57pm
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Carpone wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 1:01pm:
If you actually tested, you'd know that Flesh to Gold, Mass Flesh to Gold and Flash Freeze are all 6 sec cooldowns.


I tested the DPS, it was bad. I do see the lower cooldowns now, but that doesn't change much for me. If you bypass fortitude DC with any school, necro is a better one to have. Unless im missing some DC advantage or something else they get, sorcs still competely outclass.
  
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Re: Alchemist is bad, change my mind
Reply #24 - Jan 31st, 2020 at 4:58pm
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Rubbinns wrote on Jan 30th, 2020 at 4:43pm:
Oh, you think we covered it all? Because I forgot about the few second delay from starting your NHB timer to being able to actually use it.

But, wait. There's more : If you had a good hide score, Scion Ethereal got nerfed as well.


Did we get them all? 8? nerfs? Seems legit



I didnt like inquis meta much, but that sounds too rough. ill test it sometime.
  
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