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u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build (Read 21404 times)

palmer01 VoD Slasher Offline Paladin Slayer Posts: 1737 Location: Los Angeles Joined: Apr 14^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #50 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 3:26pm	Print Post
	this is all good stuff. I parked my toon at level 20; gonna start hitting shit up.


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People kill guns Ex Member	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #51 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 3:39pm	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:16am: Pretty much that, I knew ther was something wrong with 5Foot maths (ther could not be such a diference for only 10 MP) but coudn't find it myself ty� That's key cuz you are giving up a lot of dps. Most easy way to make some maths easy to understand (for me) is calculating a sequence of 20 atacks. Going to use tempest who does 100 base damage, has 100 MP, 50% DS and 100% offhand porc as example (I will keep crits and procs apart since it wont change resutls much and to make it as simple as possible) Over a sequence of 20 atacks such tempest woud hit 30 times with main hand and 20 with off hand. Lets start with tempest: 30 hits main hand --> 30 hits x (100 base damage x 2.1 110 MP) --> 30 hits x 210 = 6300 25 hits off hand--> 25 hits x 210 (base damage + 110 MP) = 5250 (5 extra hits from tempest capstone) TOTAL = 6300 + 5250 = 11550 Deepwood : 30 hits main hand --> 30 hits x (100 base damage x 2.2 120 MP) --> 30 hits x 220 = 6600 (10 extra MP from DWS capstone) 20 hits off hand--> 20 hits x 220 (base damage + 120 MP) = 4400 (10 extra MP from DWS capstone) SA from DWS 3d6 --> 10.5 dmg on average x hit (it scales with 150% MP) DWS MP is 120, 150% of 120 = 180, so MP for SA on the example DWS would be 180. 10.5 SA x 2.8 ( 180 MP for SA calculation) = 29.4 SA x hit 50 hits over 20 atacks ( 30 main hand 20 offhand) --> 50 x 29.4 = 1470 SA (over 20 atacks/50 hits) TOTAL = 6600 + 4400 + ( 1470 SA ) = 11000 + 1470 SA So to recap Tempest have sightly better base damage output but overall damage is sightly higer on DWS due to SA, that said I dont think 1470 SA damage over 20 atacks is worth the dps lost in AP wasted to get DWS capstone, also i think if we take into account procs and crits it probably make the base damage diference higer in favor of tempest. Interesting. +2


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Metal-Beast Abbot Raider Offline \m/ Posts: 767 Joined: Apr 13^th, 2014	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #52 - Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 11:21pm	Print Post
	string table error, tableDID wrote on Dec 1^st, 2015 at 3:17am: I agree. Seconded.

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davenot Ex Member	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #53 - Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 12:10am	Print Post
	It's so difficult to pass on making anything human, the human tree is so superior to just about anything else that I always have a nagging feeling that I'm playing significantly sub-optimal when I go anything else. (drow chucker aside). Which stinks because I like the look and flavor of other races. The biggest problem being that it's going to be at least a year if that before they get around to a race pass. I would guess the Gnomes will be pretty stacked on release tho.


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Galadriel DQ Assaulter Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 419 Location: Middle Earth Joined: May 20^th, 2015 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #54 - Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 12:44am	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 10:16am: DWS MP is 120, 150% of 120 = 180, so MP for SA on the example DWS would be 180. Might want to recheck your scaling there, because Turdbine... Quote: It's so difficult to pass on making anything human, the human tree is so superior to just about anything else that I always have a nagging feeling that I'm playing significantly sub-optimal when I go anything else. (drow chucker aside). Which stinks because I like the look and flavor of other races. The biggest problem being that it's going to be at least a year if that before they get around to a race pass.� I would guess the Gnomes will be pretty stacked on release tho. You forgot the talk about Tiefling and Aasimar although until we start seeing something for those races, all that those remain is a distant hope


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WonderfulFoppyBint Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Poooop Posts: 5949 Location: stockholm victim of hag master Joined: Oct 23^rd, 2013	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #55 - Dec 3^rd, 2015 at 1:00am	Print Post
	I like poooop.

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #56 - Dec 5^th, 2015 at 12:51am	Print Post
	SayWhatAgain wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19am: Tempest capstone is superior than DWS for melle dps and here is why: It's actually a lot simpler than what was presented earlier. Sorry, it sounds reasonable, but percentage comparisons are simplistic and often flawed. I have posted calculations using real numbers that show DWS producing a larger increase to those real numbers per attack animation than Tempest does, so unless someone finds a flaw in my math or thinks of something that I left out, we have to assume that you are wrong. SayWhatAgain wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19am: Say MP in Tempest is 70 for an effective multiplier of 1.7 and so a DWS would have 80 MP for an effective multiplier of 1.8. The ratio between the two is 1.8/1.7= ~1.06 for a 6% increase in dps (will get to procs and adds later). It is incorrect to multiply whatever 6% equates to by 2.5 because regardless of number of attacks that will be the increase in damage compared to the same number of attacks done by a Tempest. Now looking at the Tempest, an extra 25% chance for an off hand attack is an increase of 2.75/2.5 in dps (main,off hand, double strike, off hand ds) which is 1.1 or a 10% increase in dps. So we have 10% (tempest) vs 6% (DWS) base damage increase. This is how we get silly mantras like "melee power has diminishing returns" which is obviously false since each point of melee power adds the same amount of damage to your total. It is only the percentage increase relative to the previous total that diminishes. This complaint is valid in a system like PRR� since there is a limit to how much incoming damage can be reduced by, but makes no sense in discussion of melee power since there is no upper limit on your damage output. Also, the thing about offhand doublestrike is that it doesn't add the percentage of attacks described, because even at 100% rate, you still don't get an offhand attack if you're mainhand misses (rolls a 1) and on the same note, you don't get offhand double strike if you roll a 1 on your offhand attack. So the actual increase is 25% x .95 x .95 which is only a 22.565% increase in actual game conditions. Also also, the thing about melee power is that it adds significantly more damage than described by Turbine in actual game conditions. SayWhatAgain wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19am: The tempest 10% is an increase of 10% to sneak attack and proc damage beyond just the base damage.This outweighes DWS 3d6 sneak attack damage at MP higher by 10. Percentage fail. 3d6x2.7=28.35 There's no way that you're getting 283.5 sneak attack plus proc damage on a ranger. 35(ToF)+15.2(Wrath)+36(MF)+7.84(Meteor)+[20.5x2.55](sneak attack)=146.315 SayWhatAgain wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19am: Take into account the dps sacrifices in taking the DWS capstone in the first place over the Tempest one and you have a slam dunk in favor of tempest. Most of your AP are still tied up in DWS and Tempest. What are you going to lose DPS wise? KtA? 10 damage maybe?

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Macvann Dirty Sock Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 18 Joined: Nov 1^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #57 - Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:25am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 12:51am: I have posted calculations using real numbers that show DWS producing a larger increase to those real numbers per attack animation than Tempest does, so unless someone finds a flaw in my math or thinks of something that I left out, we have to assume that you are wrong. SayWhatAgain wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2015 at 9:19am: It is incorrect to multiply whatever 6% equates to by 2.5 because regardless of number of attacks that will be the increase in damage compared to the same number of attacks done by a Tempest. Dude you multiplied the amount of dps that 10 MP gives x 2.5 for no reason, you even quoted it... 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 12:51am: Also, the thing about offhand doublestrike is that it doesn't add the percentage of attacks described, because even at 100% rate, you still don't get an offhand attack if you're mainhand misses (rolls a 1) and on the same note, you don't get offhand double strike if you roll a 1 on your offhand attack. So the actual increase is 25% x .95 x .95 which is only a 22.565% increase in actual game conditions. Same goes for 10 MP and 3d6 SA you don't benefit from it when you main hand rolls a 1, you don't benefit from it either if your off hand rolls a 1 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 12:51am: Also also, the thing about melee power is that it adds significantly more damage than described by Turbine in actual game conditions. This is the only thing that could make DWS better than Tempest for melee dps purposes, but if thats the case it's mainly cuz MP doesn't work WAI not cuz DWS capstone is superior. 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 12:51am: Most of your AP are still tied up in DWS and Tempest. What are you going to lose DPS wise? KtA? 10 damage maybe? Well, someone that goes for DWS capstone is going to need 41 AP there, thats 39 left for Tempest and other trees. To get all offensive tier 5 tempest abilities you are going to need 41 AP that means you are 2 AP short if going DWS making you lose at least 1 tier 5 important dps ability (minimum +3 damage) or DoD, incase you are human you are going to lose damage boost too.... On the other hand if you go the Tempest route, you need 42 AP to take all tempest dps tier 5 stuff + capstone, so we left with 38 AP. You only need 24 AP in deepwood to take the +1 crit� range core and killer ( no much point going further in that tree unless you plan on taking capstone ).That's 14 AP left, you can put 1 in human for damage boost, and 13 in harper for +1 damage, KTA tier 2 (which is worth +7 damage easy at cap) and 6 MP. So 10 MP +3d6 SA (DWS capstone route) vs 6 MP 25% offhand DS +11 damage and human damage boost (Tempest capstone + Harper)
	« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:36am by Macvann »

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SayWhatAgain Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 236 Joined: Jul 30^th, 2014	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #58 - Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:09am	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:25am: Dude you multiplied the amount of dps that 10 MP gives x 2.5 for no reason, you even quoted it... Same goes for 10 MP and 3d6 SA you don't benefit from it when you main hand rolls a 1, you don't benefit from it either if your off hand rolls a 1 This is the only thing that could make DWS better than Tempest for melee dps purposes, but if thats the case it's mainly cuz MP doesn't work WAI not cuz DWS capstone is superior. Well, someone that goes for DWS capstone is going to need 41 AP there, thats 39 left for Tempest and other trees. To get all offensive tier 5 tempest abilities you are going to need 41 AP that means you are 2 AP short if going DWS making you lose at least 1 tier 5 important dps ability (minimum +3 damage) or DoD, incase you are human you are going to lose damage boost too.... On the other hand if you go the Tempest route, you need 42 AP to take all tempest dps tier 5 stuff + capstone, so we left with 38 AP. You only need 24 AP in deepwood to take the +1 crit� range core and killer ( no much point going further in that tree unless you plan on taking capstone ).That's 14 AP left, you can put 1 in human for damage boost, and 13 in harper for +1 damage, KTA tier 2 (which is worth +7 damage easy at cap) and 6 MP. So 10 MP +3d6 SA (DWS capstone route) vs 6 MP 25% offhand DS +11 damage and human damage boost (Tempest capstone + Harper) Couldn't put it better myself.


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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #59 - Dec 5^th, 2015 at 10:18pm	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:25am: Dude you multiplied the amount of dps that 10 MP gives x 2.5 for no reason, you even quoted it... The 25% offhand dstrike only applies once per attack animation; therefore, you have to compare added damage per attack animation instead of only applying the benefits from DWS to one single attack like I did in the original calc. 100% mainhand (.95) + 100% offhand (.95) + Doublestrike/offhand doublestrike ((.6) arbitrary number...possibly not attainable?) It is entirely possible that I did not explain that very well when I edited it. Note that I multiplied the relevant portion of the Tempest damage by 2.5 as well. Macvann wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:25am: Same goes for 10 MP and 3d6 SA you don't benefit from it when you main hand rolls a 1, you don't benefit from it either if your off hand rolls a 1 This is the only thing that could make DWS better than Tempest for melee dps purposes, but if thats the case it's mainly cuz MP doesn't work WAI not cuz DWS capstone is superior. If it does more damage then it is better. No one is capable of knowing whether anything in this game is WAI or not at this point. We can assume that not functioning as described does not equal not WAI though, since Fury Eternal was specifically changed to start working with ranged again years ago but still reads as a melee only ability. Macvann wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 7:25am: Well, someone that goes for DWS capstone is going to need 41 AP there, thats 39 left for Tempest and other trees. To get all offensive tier 5 tempest abilities you are going to need 41 AP that means you are 2 AP short if going DWS making you lose at least 1 tier 5 important dps ability (minimum +3 damage) or DoD, incase you are human you are going to lose damage boost too.... On the other hand if you go the Tempest route, you need 42 AP to take all tempest dps tier 5 stuff + capstone, so we left with 38 AP. You only need 24 AP in deepwood to take the +1 crit� range core and killer ( no much point going further in that tree unless you plan on taking capstone ).That's 14 AP left, you can put 1 in human for damage boost, and 13 in harper for +1 damage, KTA tier 2 (which is worth +7 damage easy at cap) and 6 MP. So 10 MP +3d6 SA (DWS capstone route) vs 6 MP 25% offhand DS +11 damage and human damage boost (Tempest capstone + Harper) The obvious setup for T5 tempest/DWS cap is 41 in DWS, 38 tempest for DoD, 1k, DP, 1 in racial for damage boost. Whirling blades is meh. The melee power in Harper is worth pointing out though. We can easily recalculate with that in mind. I was showing that one capstone added more damage than another. It is entirely possible that Tempest is still the better choice overall.

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #60 - Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm	Print Post
	Adding in 6 MP from Harper and 10 damage from KtA/Whirling Blades to make this a practical comparison instead of just capstones. Also upped the assumed base sneak attack dice from 3 to 4 (3 from DWS cores, 1 from Stealthy) and added the increase to stormdancer from MP to DWS side. Oops, Also wasn't giving offhand doublestrike full MP scaling. /facepalm Level 28: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted and 100 melee power/60% double strike. (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 25% of 330.08 is 97.73, plus 2.5(100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 154.93 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 90x0.2+(10.5x2.8)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)=56x2.5=140 more damage per attack animation. See, checking over the math helps, not sophistry. Tempest pulls ahead because I was scaling the sneak attack incorrectly on the dstrikes. But is there anything else I missed? Level 20 Hit for 52.7 base damage (2d8+7+15x1.7) on average and have T3 Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water weapons with a meteoric slotted and 74 melee power/35% doublestrike. (58.7x1.9)+4.95+10.5+5.6+(7x1.9)+(24x2.35)=193.825 25% of 193.825 is 48.45625, plus 2.25(58.7x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 85.06825 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 52.7x0.2+(10.5x2.41)+(24x0.3)=43.045 x 2.25=96.85125 more damage per attack animation So my initial hunch was correct. DWS is optimal at 20 and Tempest is optimal at cap. (Unless someone spots an error or thinks of something I forgot?) You probably want to repec enhancements when you get the massive upgrade to proc damage from swapping in TF at 24 or 26. This is of course assuming that MP works as described. (Hint: It doesn't)
	« Last Edit: Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm by 5 Foot Step »
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Macvann Dirty Sock Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 18 Joined: Nov 1^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #61 - Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 10:18pm: The obvious setup for T5 tempest/DWS cap is 41 in DWS, 38 tempest for DoD, 1k, DP, 1 in racial for damage boost. Whirling blades is meh. If you hit for 100 base damage before MP (which is quite high) +3 damage is + 3% more base damage, exaclty the same benefit 3 MP would give to your base damage, so I won't consider it meh though it's probably the worst tier 5 tempest ability and the one I would give up if I had to. With the AP setup you gave you are missing whirlwind (tempest lvl 18 core) which gives 10% offhand, 5% DS and 5% stacking ghostly... If you want to take all you have listed + Whirlwind you need 39 in Tempest tree, so there is no room for racial damage boost unless you also give up DP or last tier of 1Kcuts/DoD ( apart form whirling blades) 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 10:18pm: I was showing that one capstone added more damage than another. It is entirely possible that Tempest is still the better choice overall. Yes, capstone vs capstone DWS is sightly better no doubt of that but all the scarifices needed to get that make tempest the best choice in most situations as long as you use the remaning AP wisely, that's also quite clear. 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm: See, checking over the math helps, not sophistry. Tempest pulls ahead because I was scaling the sneak attack incorrectly on the dstrikes. But is there anything else I missed? Hard to tell since you are not very specific with where that numbers come from, you put a long line of mathematical operations but don't tell where they come from, that would be very handy in trying to understand it and seeing if there is anything else wrong or missing. An example: 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm: (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 I see that (100x2.16) is base damage x MP but I have no idea where most of other numbers like +35 +15.2 etc come from. Is it SA or mortal fear procs or what? If you can be more specific with that it would help a lot� (same for DWS numbers) 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm: DWS is optimal at 20 and Tempest is optimal at cap. I'm not sure about that. There must be something wrong in you maths since the lower main hand DS and the lower MP the better for tempest, 3d6 SA and 10 MP (DWS) benefit much more from increased main hand DS and higer base MP, than 25% off hand DS (Tempest) do. 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm: This is of course assuming that MP works as described. (Hint: It doesn't) Well, being more specific with it would help too, what's exaclty wrong with MP ? From your words I undersatnd it's over performing but, by how much? Have you calculated it or it's just a guess ?


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Starkjade Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Rogue Scholar Posts: 7082 Location: Canadia Joined: Aug 27^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #62 - Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:37am	Print Post
	Looks like there are some tough choices to be made here.

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yardarm_ Toothless Molehunter Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 295 Joined: Aug 21^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #63 - Dec 6^th, 2015 at 12:06pm	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 5^th, 2015 at 11:25pm: Adding in 6 MP from Harper and 10 damage from KtA/Whirling Blades to make this a practical comparison instead of just capstones. Also upped the assumed base sneak attack dice from 3 to 4 (3 from DWS cores, 1 from Stealthy) and added the increase to stormdancer from MP to DWS side. Oops, Also wasn't giving offhand doublestrike full MP scaling. /facepalm Level 28: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted and 100 melee power/60% double strike. (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 25% of 330.08 is 97.73, plus 2.5(100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 154.93 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 90x0.2+(10.5x2.8)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)=56x2.5=140 more damage per attack animation. See, checking over the math helps, not sophistry. Tempest pulls ahead because I was scaling the sneak attack incorrectly on the dstrikes. But is there anything else I missed? Level 20 Hit for 52.7 base damage (2d8+7+15x1.7) on average and have T3 Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water weapons with a meteoric slotted and 74 melee power/35% doublestrike. (58.7x1.9)+4.95+10.5+5.6+(7x1.9)+(24x2.35)=193.825 25% of 193.825 is 48.45625, plus 2.25(58.7x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 85.06825 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 52.7x0.2+(10.5x2.41)+(24x0.3)=43.045 x 2.25=96.85125 more damage per attack animation So my initial hunch was correct. DWS is optimal at 20 and Tempest is optimal at cap. (Unless someone spots an error or thinks of something I forgot?) You probably want to repec enhancements when you get the massive upgrade to proc damage from swapping in TF at 24 or 26. This is of course assuming that MP works as described. (Hint: It doesn't) Shhht. Don't tell him. It's a trap .
	« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2015 at 12:07pm by yardarm_ »

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #64 - Dec 6^th, 2015 at 10:51pm	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am: With the AP setup you gave you are missing whirlwind (tempest lvl 18 core) which gives 10% offhand, 5% DS and 5% stacking ghostly... If you want to take all you have listed + Whirlwind you need 39 in Tempest tree, so there is no room for racial damage boost unless you also give up DP or last tier of 1Kcuts/DoD ( apart form whirling blades) Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Probably drop a point from 1k. I was only ballparking the MP and DS figures though... Macvann wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am: If you hit for 100 base damage before MP (which is quite high) +3 damage is + 3% more base damage, exaclty the same benefit 3 MP would give to your base damage, ...plus 4.5% sneak attack, plus 3% storm tempest, multiplied by the mysterious overperforming modifier... Macvann wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am: Hard to tell since you are not very specific with where that numbers come from, you put a long line of mathematical operations but don't tell where they come from, that would be very handy in trying to understand it and seeing if there is anything else wrong or missing. An example: I see that (100x2.16) is base damage x MP but I have no idea where most of other numbers like +35 +15.2 etc come from. Is it SA or mortal fear procs or what? If you can be more specific with that it would help a lot� (same for DWS numbers) Tempest: (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 25% of 330.08 is 97.73, plus 2.5(100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24)= 100x2.16 is base times MP. 35 is average for Touch of Flames. 15.2 is average for Wrath of Flames. 36 is average for Mortal Fear force damage. 7.84 is average for Meteoric Star. 7x2.16 is Storm Tempest times MP. We then take 25% of the total damage of 1 attack because that is how much damage 25% offhand doublestrike adds to 1 attacks animation. (I should probably adjust that to 22.5% because of the no offhand DS if you roll a 1 on mainhand or offhand issue.) Then we add the total of the damage added by melee power to the rest of the attacks in one animation. (.95 for mainhand plus .95 for offhand plus non-capstone DS (Hmm, modifier should actually be different here. I need to figure what DS is actually attainable and remember not to count the 25% since I already added MP to the capstone DS above.)) Looks like I need to post another revision. DWS: 90x0.2+(10.5x2.8)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)= 90x.2 is base damage times the increase in MP from the capstone. 10.5 is the SA added by the capstone times 150% total MP. 24 is the rest of assumed sneak attack (4d6+10 from gear) times 150% of the increase in MP from the capstone. 7x.2 is Storm Tempest times the increase in MP from the capstone. Macvann wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am: I'm not sure about that. There must be something wrong in you maths since the lower main hand DS and the lower MP the better for tempest, 3d6 SA and 10 MP (DWS) benefit much more from increased main hand DS and higer base MP, than 25% off hand DS (Tempest) do. It's the proc damage multiplied by the extra attacks from 25% offhand DS. There's just not the same league of proc damage at 20. 26.65 on the eEKoW vs 94.04 on t3 TF. Macvann wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:28am: Well, being more specific with it would help too, what's exaclty wrong with MP ? From your words I undersatnd it's over performing but, by how much? Have you calculated it or it's just a guess ? It's by a lot.
	« Last Edit: Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:21pm by 5 Foot Step »
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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #65 - Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:43pm	Print Post
	Yet another revision. Correcting modifiers in Tempest calcs to reflect not getting offhand DS on mainhand/offhand 1s AND correcting DS to actual values while I'm at it. At cap DS is 20 from killer plus 8 from quiver/gear plus 15 from PTWF plus 8/9 from tempest enhancements = 51/52%. Level 20 is 20 from killer plus 3 from gear plus 8/9 from tempest enhancements = 31/32. Level 28: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 100 melee power and 51/52% double strike. (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 22.5% of 390.92 is 87.957, plus 2.42((100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 143.3266 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 90x0.2+(10.5x2.8)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)=56x2.42=135.52 more damage per attack animation. Is there anything else I missed? Level 20 Hit for 52.7 base damage (2d8+7+15x1.7) on average and have T3 Epic Elemental Khopesh of Water weapons with a meteoric slotted and 74 melee power/35% doublestrike. (58.7x1.9)+4.95+10.5+5.6+(7x1.9)+(24x2.35)=202.28 22.5% of 202.28 is 45.513, plus 2.22((58.7x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 81.63684 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 52.7x0.2+(10.5x2.41)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)=44.445 x 2.22=98.6679 more damage per attack animation Same outcome, but the margin is narrower at 28 and wider at 20. Remind me to update when level 30 stuff is finalized.

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #66 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 4:41am	Print Post
	Looking ahead to level 30, planning on taking Harbinger of Chaos and Scion of Arborea. Not sure what GS procs will look like yet. Level 30: 92 base damage (4.5d8+15+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 126 melee power and 51/52% double strike. (102x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=458.35 22.5% of 458.35 is 103.12875, plus 2.42((102x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 163.33835 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 92x0.2+(10.5x3.19)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=62.595x2.41=150.85395 more damage per attack animation.

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yardarm_ Toothless Molehunter Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 295 Joined: Aug 21^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #67 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 8:28am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 4:41am: Looking ahead to level 30, planning on taking Harbinger of Chaos and Scion of Arborea. Not sure what GS procs will look like yet. Level 30: 92 base damage (4.5d8+15+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 126 melee power and 51/52% double strike. (102x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=458.35 22.5% of 458.35 is 103.12875, plus 2.42((102x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 163.33835 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 92x0.2+(10.5x3.19)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=62.595x2.41=150.85395 more damage per attack animation. Dire charge is better. Building for 90+ dc can be easily done plus the cooldown is super short.


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Macvann Dirty Sock Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 18 Joined: Nov 1^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #68 - Dec 7^th, 2015 at 5:24pm	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 10:51pm: Macvann wrote Yesterday at 11:28am: If you hit for 100 base damage before MP (which is quite high) +3 damage is + 3% more base damage, exaclty the same benefit 3 MP would give to your base damage, ...plus 4.5% sneak attack, plus 3% storm tempest, multiplied by the mysterious overperforming modifier... I know 3 MP is better than +3 base damage since it applies to SA and some other things, but I was just trying to point out that something that adds +3% base damage ( assuming you base damage is 100 or close to 100 before MP) is not meh, not in my book. Also keep in mind that if MP is overperforming the +3 added damage is overperforming just in the same way since it is directly afected by MP, to put an example if 100 MP is overperforming and giving the benefit of, lets say, 200 MP then the +3 damage is not increased to +6 as it should but to +9 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 10:51pm: Tempest: (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 25% of 330.08 is 97.73, plus 2.5(100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24)= 100x2.16 is base times MP. 35 is average for Touch of Flames. 15.2 is average for Wrath of Flames. 36 is average for Mortal Fear force damage. 7.84 is average for Meteoric Star. 7x2.16 is Storm Tempest times MP. We then take 25% of the total damage of 1 attack because that is how much damage 25% offhand doublestrike adds to 1 attacks animation. (I should probably adjust that to 22.5% because of the no offhand DS if you roll a 1 on mainhand or offhand issue.) Then we add the total of the damage added by melee power to the rest of the attacks in one animation. (.95 for mainhand plus .95 for offhand plus non-capstone DS Now it�s way easier to understand where numbers come from and look for possible errors or missing things, ty� 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 6^th, 2015 at 11:43pm: Yet another revision. Correcting modifiers in Tempest calcs to reflect not getting offhand DS on mainhand/offhand 1s AND correcting DS to actual values while I'm at it. At cap DS is 20 from killer plus 8 from quiver/gear plus 15 from PTWF plus 8/9 from tempest enhancements = 51/52%. Level 20 is 20 from killer plus 3 from gear plus 8/9 from tempest enhancements = 31/32. Level 28: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 100 melee power and 51/52% double strike. (100x2.16)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.16)+(24x2.74)=390.92 22.5% of 390.92 is 87.957, plus 2.42((100x.16)+(7x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. Tempest capstone adds 143.3266 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs DWS 90x0.2+(10.5x2.8)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)=56x2.42=135.52 more damage per attack animation. Is there anything else I missed? Yes, first you should take 1 MP away from DWS since you need to sacrifice last tier of 1kcuts (worth 1MP + 1% DS) to get DWS capstone and all other tempest goodies while keeping racial damage boost. Lets ignore the 1% DS lost since you can get certain things in DWS ( like +3 damage vs fav enemy or +3 damage vs mobs under 50% hp) to compensate it. Also 14 AP in Harper + whirlwing blades is +11 damage not +10 as you listed ( +3 from whirling +7 from KTA +1 from harper enchantment = +11) but lets ignore it too as part of the tradeoff for the 2 DWS abilities I mentioned before. Apart from that it is very important for tempest capstone + harper to take into account crits when calculating the base damage per attack animation since the +10 damage gets multiplied by crits while the 3d6 SA not. (100x2.16)...90x0.2 That 100 is wrong imo as well as the 90 in DWS, you should factor crits here. If that ranger is using a kopesh (16-20 x4), has +20 seeker, overhelming crit. and devastating critical, his average damage per hit will be way higer making that +10 damage way more usefull (by geting multiplied on crits) and the SA a little less since SA will be a lower X% of the total damage. Over 20 hits on average that ranger would roll:� a 1 (0 damage), 2-15 normal hit ( 14 hits x 100 damage ), 16-18 normal crit x4 +20 seeker ( 3 hits x 480 damage ), 19-20 crit x6 +20 seeker( 2 hits x 720 damage) = 0 + 1400 + 1440 + 1440 = 4280 damage on average over 20 hits = 214 damage per hit before MP, this is the number you shoud use imo as base damage per hit and then add the MP. You can use the same formula to calculate DWS base damage per hit : 1 ( 0 ), 2-15 ( 14 x 90 ), 16-18 ( 3 x 440 ), 19-20 ( 2 x 660 ) = 0 + 1260 + 1320 + 1320 = 3900 damage on average over 20 hits = 195. See the diference in base damage per hit before MP increased by 9 that way : 100 vs 90 difrenece of +10 ( no crits taken into account) and 214 vs 195 diference of +19 ( with crits taken into account ). This is quite a noticeable increase for tempest� It would be very handy and accurate to separate the damage in, at least, 3 types : base damage, SA ( and other procs affected by MP) and wepon procs ( and other procs not affected by MP ), then you can add the crits factor in base damage portion either before doing the maths or after. I will try to do some maths myself ( in the same way I did earlier on this thread, since its easier to understad that way for me) when I have a spare moment and taking all that into account.
	« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2015 at 5:52pm by Macvann »

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #69 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 3:49am	Print Post
	yardarm_ wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 8:28am: Dire charge is better. Building for 90+ dc can be easily done plus the cooldown is super short. I haven't been able to get on Lam this cycle (several cycles actually...) but I was under the assumption that this attack would have practicality issues with aiming a la cartwheel charge in TA or shield charge in Vanguard (or whatever those abilities are called.) 10.5xMP is pretty nice DPS. Especially when you've already got like 10 active attacks slotted.

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #70 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 4:08am	Print Post
	Macvann wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 5:24pm: (100x2.16)...90x0.2 That 100 is wrong imo as well as the 90 in DWS, you should factor crits here. If that ranger is using a kopesh (16-20 x4), has +20 seeker, overhelming crit. and devastating critical, his average damage per hit will be way higer making that +10 damage way more usefull (by geting multiplied on crits) and the SA a little less since SA will be a lower X% of the total damage. Crits were already averaged into those numbers: Quote: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) That's (Weapon+enhancement+Str mod)x khopesh crit profile. The multiplier is 1.7 because the khopesh is 16-20x4. That's quadruple damage 5 times over the course of 20 or 15 extra iterations of damage in other words. So you deal x1.75 damage vs 20 non-crits, except that you miss on a one so it's actually x1.7. Macvann wrote on Dec 7^th, 2015 at 5:24pm: I know 3 MP is better than +3 base damage since it applies to SA and some other things, but I was just trying to point out that something that adds +3% base damage ( assuming you base damage is 100 or close to 100 before MP) is not meh, not in my book. Also keep in mind that if MP is overperforming the +3 added damage is overperforming just in the same way since it is directly afected by MP, to put an example if 100 MP is overperforming and giving the benefit of, lets say, 200 MP then the +3 damage is not increased to +6 as it should but to +9 The meh was relative. The opportunity cost of that 3 damage is racial damage boost, so I stand by it. Besides, if MP is overperforming then getting 3 extra MP instead of 3 base damage increases base damage, SA, and scaling procs by the same proportion.

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Macvann Dirty Sock Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 18 Joined: Nov 1^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #71 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 10:02am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 4:08am: The meh was relative. The opportunity cost of that 3 damage is racial damage boost, so I stand by it. Wrong DWS capstone takes 41 AP, all tempest tier 5 dps stuff (except whirling blades) + core lvl 18 tempest cost 39 AP, so you have already sacrificed +3 damage and still no damage boost you need to sacrifice yet another AP for that, you mentioned last tier of 1K cuts so another 1 MP and 1 % DS sacrifice to get� it. You already sacrificed the +3 damage (whirling baldes), 25% offhand� DS +� 10 MP (tempest capstone), 6 MP +8 damage to get 20 MP and 3d6 SA (DWS), then if you still want the racial boost u need to sacrifice yet more dps like last tier of 1k cuts. Ok DWS is going to get +3 damage vs fav enemies and +3 vs mobs under 50% hp, its not hard to calculate the aproximate dps value of those 2 abilities. It is fair to asume you are going to fight mobs under 50% hp round 50% of the time so :� +3/2 = +1.5 damage on average. Lets be generous with fav enemies and say you are fighting them 1/2 of the time : +1.5 damage on average. Counting that both Tempest and DWS take racial damage boost comparison looks like this: DWS : 20 MP, 3d6 SA, +3 damage, 2 MP and 2% DS (from 2 tier of 1k cuts) Tempest : 10 MP, 25% of hand DS, 3 MP and 3% DS ( from 3 tier 1k cuts), 6 MP +11 damage (3 from whirling, 7 KTA, 1 harper enchantment) Taking out redundant stuff : 3 MP + 3d6 SA vs 25% ofhand DS + 8 damage +1% DS 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 4:08am: Crits were already averaged into those numbers: Quote: 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) That's (Weapon+enhancement+Str mod)x khopesh crit profile. The multiplier is 1.7 because the khopesh is 16-20x4. That's quadruple damage 5 times over the course of 20 or 15 extra iterations of damage in other words. So you deal x1.75 damage vs 20 non-crits, except that you miss on a one so it's actually x1.7. Sorry my bad didn't notice they were included, the base damage after crits you are using is so low that I though it was without it counting, but it doesn't matter since you forgot to multiply the +10 damage a tempest has for crit profile. That's (Weapon+enhancement+Str mod)x khopesh crit profile. That's wrong the +10 damage that tempest has should have been inculded here just like str, enhancement and wep base damage, then multiplied by kopesh crit profile. You just added the +10 after crits making it lose a lot of its value since it didn't get multiplied by crits like it should and like it does in game. That +10 is a +17 after crits (+10 x 1.7) 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) +10 this is what you did. The correct way to calculate tempest base hit is : 90 base damage (4.5d8+13+20+10x1.7), with the +10 included with all other damage modifiers and multiplied by crit profile as it should. Not doing so is wrong, missleading and penalizes tempest a lot. Also I don't get why you use so low base damage any decent lvl 28 ranger should do way more than that, the lower the base damage is the better for the 3d6 extra SA DWS get. Any tempest that manages to get over 100 MP and 50% DS at cap ( all stuff that benefits DWS btw) will do way more base damage than what you used for your maths... That's (Weapon+enhancement+Str mod)x khopesh crit profile : (4.5d8+13+20x1.7) you can easy add +10 from deadly item, +4 planar focus/litany, +4 tempest tree (+1 damage and to hit while twfing), +2 rams might,� +5 from extra STR ( the +20 you gave is 50 STR which is rather low for an end game ranger, easy to push it to 60), all that stuff along with the +10 damage a tempest get over DWS gets multiplied by wep crit profile adding a lot of base damage that goes mainly in favor of tempest. Thats a total of +25 x 1.7 base damage (+35 x 1.7 for tempest)... If you give that ranger max or almost max archievable DS and MP, benefitial for DWS mainly, it's not fair and it's unreal to give him gimp base damage, he should have max or close to max base damage too, benefitial for tempest, otherwise is not a fair comparision since it's done under conditions that clearly benefit only one side
	« Last Edit: Dec 10^th, 2015 at 10:08am by Macvann »

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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #72 - Dec 10^th, 2015 at 10:54pm	Print Post
	Additions in italics. In addition to Mac's suggestions, I also noticed that the crit modifier should be 1.9 instead of 1.7 to reflect Devastating Crit and Overwhelming Crit. Also adding the bonus seeker from LD. Level 30: 204.475 base damage (5d8+18+25+3(whirling)+7(KtA)+10(deadly)+4(profane)+5(PA)+4 (tempest)x1.9)=182.875+21.6 (avg seeker)on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 132 melee power and 52% double strike for TEMPEST. (204.475x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=706.3395 22.5% of 706.3395 is 158.9263875, plus 2.42((204.475x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. (99.88792) Tempest capstone adds 258.8143075 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs 195.45 base damage ((5d8+18+25+10(deadly)+4(litany)+4(tempest)+5(PA)+1.5(FEbonus)+1.5(Thrill)x1.9)=173.85 +21.6(avg seeker) = 195.45 on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, [i]125 melee power and 51% double strike for DWS. DWS 195.45x0.2+(10.5x3.675)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=88.3775x2.41=212.989775 more damage per attack animation. Anything else?
	« Last Edit: Dec 11^th, 2015 at 6:17am by 5 Foot Step »
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5 Foot Step Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline I Hate Idiots! Posts: 11119 Location: USA Joined: Mar 8^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #73 - Dec 11^th, 2015 at 1:47am	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 10:54pm: (204.475x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=706.3395 For comparison to other classes, that's 566.3425x2.42=1709.34159 total damage per animation. ...which actually seems kinda low for level 30, considering I just ballparked a new pure fighter THF Kensei build at about that much.
	« Last Edit: Dec 11^th, 2015 at 6:19am by 5 Foot Step »
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Macvann Dirty Sock Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 18 Joined: Nov 1^st, 2015	Re: u28 survuble ranger TWF melee build Reply #74 - Dec 11^th, 2015 at 2:42pm	Print Post
	5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 11^th, 2015 at 1:47am: For comparison to other classes, that's 566.3425x2.42=1709.34159 total damage per animation. ...which actually seems kinda low for level 30, considering I just ballparked a new pure fighter THF Kensei build at about that much. Well, we are trying to see the diference in between Tempest and DWS, if we did maths oriented just to see the max ranger tempest dps ( I think base damage could still be higher) it will probably result in higher damage output. Makes sense though that a Kensei gets better dps than a tempest since tempest got evasion, probably better overall saves, buffs, heals, better miss chance, about the same damage mitigation, can use bow for free etc. If it wasn't that way no one would play fighter� 5 Foot Step wrote on Dec 10^th, 2015 at 10:54pm: Additions in italics. In addition to Mac's suggestions, I also noticed that the crit modifier should be 1.9 instead of 1.7 to reflect Devastating Crit and Overwhelming Crit. Also adding the bonus seeker from LD. Level 30: 204.475 base damage (5d8+18+25+3(whirling)+7(KtA)+10(deadly)+4(profane)+5(PA)+4 (tempest)x1.9)=182.875+21.6 (avg seeker)on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, 132 melee power and 52% double strike for TEMPEST. (204.475x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=706.3395 22.5% of 706.3395 is 158.9263875, plus 2.42((204.475x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. (99.88792) Tempest capstone adds 258.8143075 damage per attack animation with these variables. vs 195.45 base damage ((5d8+18+25+10(deadly)+4(litany)+4(tempest)+5(PA)+1.5(FEbonus)+1.5(Thrill)x1.9)= 173.85 +21.6(avg seeker) = 195.45 on average and have a ToF/Wrath/MF weapons with a meteoric slotted, [i]125 melee power and 51% double strike for DWS. DWS 195.45x0.2+(10.5x3.675)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=88.3775x2.41=212.989775 more damage per attack animation. Anything else? Not much and mainly small details , you keep missing +1 damage for tempest from harper enchantment ( could be another +1 since it's not that hard to push KTA to give +8 instead of +7, but lets ignore that one ). (5d8+18+25+3(whirling)+7(KtA)+10(deadly)+4(profane)+5(PA)+4 (tempest) + 1 (harper) x1.9)=182.875+21.6 (avg seeker). 204.475 base damage (5d8+18+25+3(whirling)+7(KtA)+10(deadly)+4(profane)+5(PA)+4 (tempest)x1.9)=182.875+21.6 (avg seeker)on average. You made a mistake here should do the maths again tempest resulting damage is a little higer : (5d8+18+25+3(whirling)+7(KtA)+10(deadly)+4(profane)+5(PA)+4 (tempest)x1.9)= 187.15 + 21,6 seeker = 208,75. The diference in between tempest and DWS base damage after crits and before MP is 13.3, which makes sense because is the result of multiplying the base damage diference before crits in your example +7 (should be +8 with harper enanchement) x 1.9 You also forgot to calculate properly the extra 1% DS a tempest get, you calculated the added dps of it only in that part :� plus 2.42((204.475x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. by adding it here (2.42 for tempest / 2.41 for DWS) but that's only afected by a portion of MP ( 0.16 tempest / 0.20 DWS ) with 1% DS only afected by 16 MP when DS is afected by full MP. An easy way to calculate 1% DS is : (Average base damage per hit after crit profile x full MP) + (average SA per hit after full 150%* MP) + (procs)/100. In you example it's� 706.3395/100 = 7.06 damage x hit. If you want to count on when you roll a 1 so there is no DS just multiply 7.06 x 0.95 = 6.7 damage x hit =� 1% DS, since it only applies to main hand 1 hit = 1 attack animation so 6.7 damage x hit = 6.7 damage x attack animation, now just add it to the end resulting damage per attack animation, in your example : Tempest capstone adds 258.8143075 damage per attack animation + 6.7. This way when you calculate the : 2.42((204.475x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP you can use same number (2.41) for both since you already calcuated the full benefit of 1% extra DS earlier with that 16 MP (.16) included. And last : 3 MP + 3d6 SA vs 25% ofhand DS + 8 damage +1% DS You forgot to add 1 MP to tempest here : plus 2.42((204.475x.16)+(7x.16)+(10.5x.16)+(24x.24)) damage added to mainhand/offhand/doublestrike via MP. 195.45x0.2+(10.5x3.675)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=88.3775x2.41 The diference in MP is 3 not 4 so either you give tempest 0.17 (I suggest that) or take 0.01 away from DWS. DWS will always have 3 more MP than tempest not more, it is : DWS--> Base MP (same for both) + 20 DWS capstone + 2 tier 2 of 1K cuts --> Base MP + 22 Tempest--> Base MP + 10 tempest capstone + 3 tier 3 of 1K cuts + 6 Harper --> Base MP + 19 Another thing that we should take into account since we are calculating even the smaller detalis, like chances to miss on 1, is that SA is not active 100% of the time, even with an improved deception item and high attack rate/speed it is impossible to keep it up all the time, more like 90% at best. So multiplying any SA source x 0.9 would be quite accurate imo. Also, as side note, after some easy test with avitoul ring I'm pretty sure SA scales with 250% MP, since 51 MP toon with avitoul ring and 0 SA dice was doing 29 SA every hit, avitoul ring is 13 SA damage 150% of 51 MP is 76.5 MP... 13 SA x 1.765 = 22.945. 250% of 51 MP is 127.5 MP, 13 SA x 2.275 = 29.575� � all other sources of damage like base damage and storm tempest scaled correctly. Would it change the results much if taken into account ?� EDIT: Yet found another calculation error 125 melee power and 51% double strike for DWS--> I�m assuming that is before capstone.� So 125 + 20 (DWS capstone) = 145 total MP 132 melee power and 52% double strike for TEMPEST--> I�m assuming it�s before capstone. Probably� 125 base + 6 harper +1 tier 3 1K cuts = 132. So 132 + 10 (Tempest capstone) = 142 total MP A diference of 3 in favor of DWS, sounds about right. (204.475x2.42)+35+15.2+36+7.84+(7x2.42)+(10.5x2.42)+(24x3.13)=706.3395. You used 2.42 for tempest MP calcs which equals to 142 MP, all right here. Not so much here: 195.45x0.2+(10.5x3.675)+(24x0.3)+(7x.2)+(10.5x.2)=88.3775x2.41=212.989775 more damage per attack animation. DWS total MP is 145, 10.5 SA damage (of DWS capstone) gets 150% of 145 MP (assuming it works as description)*.� 150% of 145 MP = 217.5 MP. You used 3.675 which is wrong, should be 267.5 MP but DWS only has 217.5 so it should be (10.5 x 3.175). What I think you did is you took the resulting modifier of 145 MP = 2.45 and multiplied it for 150% which equals� 3.675, exactly� the number you used. This is probably how it really works instead of just using 150% of MP as it says in description, and this is why it�s overperforming. If you want to calculate it that way is ok and it�s better because it�s how it probably works in game. But then you have to calculate it in that way for every SA damage source for both tempest and DWS and you just did it in� that way there ( the 3d6 SA from DWS). (24x3.13) this is base SA assumed for tempest ( 10 item + 4d6) x 150% tempest MP. Tempest total MP is 142, 150% of 142 MP is 213 MP = 3.13. Here you calculated as description says. If you have used the same formula that� you used to calculate the extra 3d6 SA of DWS ( and probably how it really works) it should be 150% of 2.42 ( modifier for 142 MP) = 3.63. So (24 x3.63).
	« Last Edit: Dec 11^th, 2015 at 6:03pm by Macvann »

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