gibbon wrote on Dec 8^th, 2015 at 12:14pm:


Why not something with Glancing blows? Cuz SWB?

Would it be worth doing a 15 Bard/5Ranger for T5 Tempest to make Freeze attacks AoE  using TWF? You would have to skip the AoE Freeze Proc at T5 Warchanter of course, but you would have 2 others that could then be AoE.

kum-gulp wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 3:21pm:


It's true, but if I see 2 strictly melee classes one with 90 kills versus the other with 5 kills, it is safe to say one is doing more than the other, unless one zoned into the quest 30 minutes late

kum-gulp wrote on Dec 14^th, 2015 at 3:21pm:


And I don't understand how can the game be arround for  this long and people can still think kill count doesn't matter anything.

It doesn't mean that the guy with more kills always have the higher DPS, but that is much more often than not a true fact. When you see someone or some build *consistently* getting more kills than other that means it has more DPS. It's an indicator, and a good one. You have to be a retard to think there isn't a relation between the proportion of kills you are getting and the proportion of DPS you are doing (some specific cases are exceptions like burst builds and instakill).

It's like the relation between IQ and how much money you make. People with more IQ tend to make more money than people with lower. This is a fact. Obviously, there are dumb people who make a lot of money, and there are clever people who are poor, but individual cases don't change the fact that people with more IQ make more money.

WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 10:49am:


where is Teth's quote on TWF rangers?

All discussion of DPS should be single-target: namely a boss, faggots.  Don't tell me you're working off trash mob HP to determine DPS?  All trash can be one-shotted, even on EE, by a wide array of means.  Any discussion of DPS based on targets you can one-shot, is not only beyond stupid, it's irrelevant.  Glancing blows?  What fucking morons; it's a whole other level of stupid on display here, I swear.

DoRayEgon wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 1:33pm:

same. boss fight = 1 or 2 minutes and no danger of getting hurt because one mob that does less dmg than a champ trash mob. trash can kill you when surrounded and air juggled. especially with a fort bypass champ or 2. and it is the majority of the quest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7YSrwpfczA

Roll a ranged toon, fucking melees are useless now.

ILoveExploits wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 1:58pm:


I have serious doubts that 105% fortification and 72 PRR will be enough to even be able to survive in LE content on a melee. Try doubling them both and you have a chance. Or you can ask Turdbine nicely to decrease the damage LE mobs do.

Galadriel wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 2:26pm:

Nope.  I didn't claim it is higher in every regard.  I said that kill count is an indicator of who is doing the highest, sustained DPS over a long period of time.  In other words, it tends to show who did the most total damage over the course of a mission or raid after taking into account all the variables one encounters in it.

DPS by the very definition of the phrase = damage dealt per second.  It's basic math and it is class/build/method agnostic.  It doesn't matter if you deal the damage by AEing 20 mobs at once, meleeing them down one at a time, or insta-killing them with a necro build.  The real question is, which period of time do you choose when calculating DPS?  To me, the important thing is how much total damage did you do over the entirety of a mission/raid?  That's where kill count is a reasonably accurate indicator and why it matters.

A single-target, 60s boss fight is not indicative of how the majority of time is spent in missions but if you want to cherry pick your fight to make sure all the stars are aligned while you hop on one foot with your left eye closed with all your boosts running to get that one big number on a 60s boss fight video and that makes you happy, more power to you.  I prefer to look at the performance of a build across the entirety of many missions.

For example, assume the following:
A mission has 100 monsters with 10k HPs each. 
Build A puts out 3k DPS vs a single target.
Build B puts out 10k DPS vs a single target.
Build A kills all 100 monsters in 5 minutes by pulling red alert, AE'ing them down, rinsing and repeating.
Build B kills all 100 monsters in 6 minutes by fighting 1-4 monsters at a time.

The math is: 
Min damage to make all monsters dead = 100 monsters * 10000 HPs = 1,000,000 HPs. 
DPS = 1,000,000 HPs / (number of seconds to make all mobs dead).
Build A = 1,000,000 dmg / 5mins / 60s = 3333.33 DPS.
Build B = 1,000,000 dmg / 6mins / 60s = 2777.78 DPS.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 4:30pm:


No need to hop on one foot and count stars. I'll leave that to others. While your math is accurate, I disagree with the approach, mainly due to the principle of the idea. Testing build A in combat scenario Z (mass AoE) and comparing it to build B in combat scenario Y (single target) and then saying A is better due to time of completion only proves who can complete something faster. Place both builds in the exact same scenario and you will see very different results from the initial which also indicate the true nature of the how potentially flawed a system like kill count can be when measuring such things.

Don't get me wrong, I also use kill count to measure the party but I do so in retrospect of party composition and quest content. I have absolutely no expectation to be top of the list if I'm stuck tanking/kiting/solving puzzles/killing one mob at a time, while others can do as they please on anything that moves and the same goes for the other way around. This creates false positives and boosts ego more than giving a true measure of a build in comparison to others.

Digimonk wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 4:54pm:


Incorrect. Just a reference to definition as I see it a little differently. I measure my DPS in how long it takes me to "make" a single target dead. After I have a benchmark, I can easily multiply it to accommodate AoE as the abilities of my class allow. Therefore I don't need a number in the experience report to tell me who is doing better than me, or lack thereof. I can see it in how much hp dissapears from the hp bar each time that person does damage.

As for the reason why DPS is preferably measured by many in single target is because not everyone has the ability to AoE. Also, when was the last time trash DPS mattered, granted it's what 70% of your time in a quest is spent killing.

Galadriel wrote on Dec 16^th, 2015 at 6:38pm:


And your argument is completly flawed because of that thing. The problem is that the AoE scenario is just very predominat in the game, and you need single target only for specific boss fight every 5-15 mins, and that means burst DPS, wich doesn't include on the calculation of your average DPS. Anyways the only build that can do a lot of AoE DPS but doesn't have a lot of single target DPS is warlock, and that is a spacial case.

Ha, like I'm going to argue kill count reasoning with any of you. You won't change your mind and I don't care if you do. It's not a barometer for DPS.