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Very Hot Topic (More than 75 Replies) 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks! (Read 32771 times)
LordPiglet
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #100 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:12am
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Sergod wrote on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 5:23pm:
Scimitars are a better crit profile than khopeshes, and you get +4 damage and 3% doublestrike as elf. You lose a little base damage but I believe the crit profile makes for higher DPS. Using scimitars also means the human feat is basically null because you don't need khopesh proficiency.

You don't have to spend a ton more AP in elf than you would in human for damage boost, and healing amp. You would have 8 there anyways. The human build is probably higher DPS, given damage boost and more AP for sneak attack from DS (1.5x melee power affecting it currently). Human can afford killer and sneak attack from DS potentially, which is a lot of potential DPS.

It is still better to go STR based elf IMO. Str can get higher, and allows you to use stunning blow, along with it is difficult to fit a dex item into your gear with the way the RNG loot works.

I will be posting my STR based elf build that Dispel is dick riding soonTM. My gear is not done and a quick EE cabal first boss DPS test puts me a little above 6k DPS on non helpless mobs. I will probably end up around 7k DPS as a str based elven ranger, while maintaining a 95 DC stunning blow and 105 DC dire charge.


Elves should look at balizardes as an option.  +8 2.5 (1d8) 15-20 x3 rapier.
  
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Galadriel
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #101 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:18am
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LordPiglet wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:12am:
Elves should look at balizardes as an option.  +8 2.5 (1d8) 15-20 x3 rapier.


Keep in mind you have to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse for Rapiers to have Dex to-hit but it does allow you to have better bow damage for those moments when you do take it out. Though if you're willing to spend a feat for Weapon Finesse, might as well go Str Khopesh.

Also a Balizarde will fall behind fairly quickly when compared to an LGS Rapier, even if it has a lower crit and damage profile due to the extra 1.5 dice and weapon effects.
  
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Sergod
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #102 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:24am
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WonderfulFoppyBint wrote on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 7:24pm:
just to nit pick a little

14-20/x3, 14 "extra hits"
16-20/x4, 15 "extra hits"

Without deepwood:
15-20/x3, 12 "extra hits"
17-20/x4, 12 "extra hits"


I will assume LD and Overwhelming Critical.

15-18x3 - 12
19-20x5 - 10

Scimitar is 22

13 Regular Hits - 35 over 20 rolls with 1 miss

17-18x4 - 8
19-20x6 - 12

Khopesh is 20

15 Regular Hits - 35 over 20 rolls with 1 miss

On crit effects favor the crit profile, despite them both being 35 hits over 20 rolls. On crit effects may or may not not offset the base damage, but I would have to do some math. My gut does say the base damage would win though.

I did say in my previous post that Human Khopesh is probably more DPS, however I like the Elven Dragonmarks. I may end up human for the DPS and hAmp once I craft a bunch of LGS Displacement clickies though. My elf still does ~7k DPS based on my solo boss kill testing.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:00am by Sergod »  
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nowAvaultie
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #103 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:27am
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Galadriel wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:18am:
Keep in mind you have to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse for Rapiers to have Dex to-hit but it does allow you to have better bow damage for those moments when you do take it out. Though if you're willing to spend a feat for Weapon Finesse, might as well go Str Khopesh.

Also a Balizarde will fall behind fairly quickly when compared to an LGS Rapier, even if it has a lower crit and damage profile due to the extra 1.5 dice and weapon effects.

You won't have to acquire Weapon Finesse if you've got at least 3 levels of Ranger. The 3rd level Tempest core lets you use Dexterity for attack while dual wielding. You can get Improved Weapon Finesse from DWS, which lets you use Dexterity for damage with any weapon you can use Dexterity for attack.
  

OldCoaly wrote on May 27th, 2016 at 11:27am:
If one of those types of weapons isn't "wraps", then it's a non-starter for Fran.
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #104 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:09am
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LordPiglet wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:12am:
Elves should look at balizardes as an option.  +8 2.5 (1d8) 15-20 x3 rapier.


Everyone should look at Balizardes as an option.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #105 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:10am
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Galadriel wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:18am:
Also a Balizarde will fall behind fairly quickly when compared to an LGS Rapier, even if it has a lower crit and damage profile due to the extra 1.5 dice and weapon effects.


Anyone have some math to show this one way or the other?
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #106 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:28am
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Bigjunk wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:10am:
Anyone have some math to show this one way or the other?


It's worth looking at.  The LGS weapon is doing about 40% more base damage, but the 15-20x3 vs. the 18-20x2 is significant.  And then you need to factor in on-hit and on-crit add on damage.  The LGS at tier 3 is doing a lot of extra elemental or good damage.  Way more than the 2d8 bleed damage of Balizarde. 

I don't think it's a slam dunk, but i suspect LGS has the edge.
  
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Sergod
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #107 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:03pm
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Bigjunk wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:10am:
Anyone have some math to show this one way or the other?


You'd have to have some pretty huge damage to offset the extra base damage and weapon effects on LGS. tier 1 and tier 3 alone are around 70 damage a hit, plus 150 average on crits on rapier comes out to about 50 damage a hit....120 damage a hit plus the base damage vs an extra 6 "hits" from crit profile...my rough craptastic math shows 2280 damage over 20 swings from the GS weapon effects. in order to do that much damage you would need to do 380 damage per a "hit" of that extra crit multiplier. thats not taking base damage into account, or any of the LGS dual shard effects, which would widen the gap.

base damage difference is 11.25 a hit and i will assume 150 melee power (low but ill be conservative) for the math. thats another 28 dmg a hit. thats another 534 damage over 20 swings, putting the total at 2814 which equates to 469 damage per an extra crit profile "hit".
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:10pm by Sergod »  
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5 Foot Step
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #108 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:38pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:24am:
I will assume LD and Overwhelming Critical.

14-18x3 - 15
19-20x5 - 10

Scimitar is 25

13 Regular Hits - 38 over 20 rolls with 1 miss

16-18x4 - 12
19-20x6 - 12

Khopesh is 24

15 Regular Hits - 39 over 20 rolls with 1 miss


FTFY
  

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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #109 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:41pm
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I'll be honest, only reason why link is above average is because it has literally triple every possible life.

It still sucks, sometimes I get crits over 2k though! Almost broke 3k a couple times, almost....
  

OnePercenter wrote on May 15th, 2014 at 9:41am:
I just read that the cat followed up by visiting the dog house later that night, dropping some Willie Pete in on the sleeping dog.  #epochsfamiliarFTW

Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 2:09am:
It seems like Epoch never loses his popularity.
Even against donuts.
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Sergod
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #110 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:51pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:38pm:
FTFY


how is scimitar 14-20 or khopesh 16-20...? LD not DC destiny was assumed, as is written. PS your "fixed" numbers are also wrong for divine crusader...
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:56pm by Sergod »  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #111 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:15pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 5:51pm:
how is scimitar 14-20 or khopesh 16-20...? LD not DC destiny was assumed, as is written. PS your "fixed" numbers are also wrong for divine crusader...


Surely you put points in DWS cores?
  

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Sergod
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #112 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:19pm
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5 Foot Step wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:15pm:
Surely you put points in DWS cores?


so youre using called shot in a comparison of weapon crit profiles...? lol. it would be a factor in dps comparisons, but not in a 20 roll weapon profile comparison. it is every 6 seconds and also affects multiplier. I dont see the multiplier in your "math". also i only put 1 point in DWS. no AP for more if I want to take know the angles for 10 damage and 10 combat DCs. elven tree has 19 points in it.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:22pm by Sergod »  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #113 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 7:22pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:19pm:
so youre using called shot in a comparison of weapon crit profiles...? lol. it would be a factor in dps comparisons, but not in a 20 roll weapon profile comparison. it is every 6 seconds and also affects multiplier. I dont see the multiplier in your "math". also i only put 1 point in DWS. no AP for more if I want to take know the angles for 10 damage and 10 combat DCs. elven tree has 19 points in it.


Lern2ranger

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Advanced Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with your equipped weapons. (This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed). Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification.
AP Cost: 1      Ranks: 1      Progression: 20      Requires: Called Shot, Ranger level 12


Elf is bad. Ain't nobody got AP for that.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 7:25pm by 5 Foot Step »  

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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #114 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:26pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 6:19pm:
so youre using called shot in a comparison of weapon crit profiles...? lol. it would be a factor in dps comparisons, but not in a 20 roll weapon profile comparison. it is every 6 seconds and also affects multiplier. I dont see the multiplier in your "math". also i only put 1 point in DWS. no AP for more if I want to take know the angles for 10 damage and 10 combat DCs. elven tree has 19 points in it.


Elf is always bad for EVERY melee or ranged because you are losing 20% dps. Flat out. Human damage boost is the best racial ability in the game and costs one point.

Called shot is not significant. One attack every six seconds is negligible.

As someone who plays a dex based Human scim tempest, I can tell you anecdotally as well that khopesh dps is better.

Scims are 14-20/x3 and khopeshes are 16-20/x4, end of story.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:28pm by Rastelin »  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #115 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:28pm
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Rastelin wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
Elf is always bad for EVERY melee or ranged because you are losing 20% dps. Flat out. Human damage boost is the best racial ability in the game and costs one point.


Haste boost gives you FAR more DPS than damage boost; try it.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #116 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:50pm
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[] wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:28pm:
Haste boost gives you FAR more DPS than damage boost; try it.



use both dipshit.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:51pm by Rastelin »  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #117 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:59pm
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Wow you all got trolled so hard.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #118 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:05pm
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Rastelin wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
Elf is always bad for EVERY melee or ranged because you are losing 20% dps. Flat out. Human damage boost is the best racial ability in the game and costs one point.

Called shot is not significant. One attack every six seconds is negligible.

As someone who plays a dex based Human scim tempest, I can tell you anecdotally as well that khopesh dps is better.

Scims are 14-20/x3 and khopeshes are 16-20/x4, end of story.


15-20 and 17-20 in legendary dreadnought. lol divine crusader.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #119 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:19pm
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Rastelin wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
Elf is always bad for EVERY melee or ranged because you are losing 20% dps. Flat out. Human damage boost is the best racial ability in the game and costs one point.

Called shot is not significant. One attack every six seconds is negligible.

As someone who plays a dex based Human scim tempest, I can tell you anecdotally as well that khopesh dps is better.

Scims are 14-20/x3 and khopeshes are 16-20/x4, end of story.


ya ill probably end up human once i craft a bunch of displacement clickies.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #120 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:08pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:05pm:
15-20 and 17-20 in legendary dreadnought. lol divine crusader.


are you not counting dws? scim is 18-20 without IC, 15-20 with. 14-20 with dws.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #121 - Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:32pm
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Sergod wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 9:19pm:
ya ill probably end up human once i craft a bunch of displacement clickies.


it's the way to go.... displacement clickies... urgh kill me now. Not gonna lie, I use displace scrolls still mostly
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #122 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 12:29am
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nowAvaultie wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 10:27am:
You won't have to acquire Weapon Finesse if you've got at least 3 levels of Ranger. The 3rd level Tempest core lets you use Dexterity for attack while dual wielding. You can get Improved Weapon Finesse from DWS, which lets you use Dexterity for damage with any weapon you can use Dexterity for attack.


You mean this?

Tempest: +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons.

Last I checked, Rapiers aren't considered light weapons.

Bigjunk wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:10am:
Anyone have some math to show this one way or the other?


The Good damage from T1+T3 beats the Bleed damage by a lot. The higher enchantment on LGS beats the extra 2 possible damage points from higher base dice 5d6+14 (31.5) vs 3.5d8+8 (23.5). LGS Min II Rapier cuts all forms of DR except PRR while Balizarde requires an augment and a specific alignment + Twist / DC / 20 Paladin just to cut through augment + good DR. Too much investment for too little gain no matter how I look at it.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #123 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 8:10am
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True.  Rappers are finessable but not light weapons.
  
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Re: 20 Ranger Tempest Sucks!
Reply #124 - Feb 25th, 2016 at 8:12am
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Galadriel wrote on Feb 25th, 2016 at 12:29am:
Last I checked, Rapiers aren't considered light weapons.

Yeah, I forgot about that.
  

OldCoaly wrote on May 27th, 2016 at 11:27am:
If one of those types of weapons isn't "wraps", then it's a non-starter for Fran.
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