mystafyi wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 7:34pm:

This is measuring log ins.  Char swaps I'm assuming affect this?

Aeolwind wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 9:38am:

Account logins, not character logins.

Doom is overrated.
# of players is not everything. There are so many other things to measure. There are some great articles on Gamasutra that do a great job of showing what F2P models look at. We are a hybrid, so we live in the old way and new way of looking at server/player data. For an old game that just basically had a 'replacement' MMO come out last year, we did wonderfully.

Iran is almost having the nuclear bomb since 1993.

http://original.antiwar.com/sahimi/2010/05/04/irans-ever-imminent-nukes/

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 9:32am:


Great, where can we see them! I'm all for using the best data available. Link please!

Flav wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 10:32am:


That's ... a tactful understatement. Their crafting system rocks with great inventory management for crafting supplies, DDO's is a jumbled mess. Their Gateway is awesome, DDO closed MyDDO and the API is broken. DDO has Comms and Tokens and stuff that are an inventory nightmare and subject to duplication bugs, their Seals and Coins are a seamless part of of the character sheet without general inventory implications. The list goes on. Steal their good ideas, they'd steal yours without a moment's hesitation.

And on the subjects of NWO Gateway, the DDO API server, and traffic data, their equivalent to MyDDO is ranked 22k in the US by Alexa, better than twice the US rank of DDO's whole everything (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/playneverwinter.com). You might want to bring that up if the discussion ever wanders back to how important is it to fix the API server. Total Immersion, Continuous Presence, buzz buzz buzz.

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 9:32am:

Doom is NOT overrated, it's a pastime, not a prediction! It's a way to stay connected while not logged in and playing 

Funny dilbert, but not at all what I'm talking about. In the F2P arena 1 player is not equal to another money wise. Some people spend tons, others nothing. If you have a healthy population of big spenders, but not large numbers of players...you see where I'm going.
Historically DDO death is a yearly event. I've heard it every year I've been at Turbine.

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 10:58pm:


It looks like you're saying that there are not a large numbers of players.  So DDO is not an MMORPG anymore?  It's got a small number of players who pay out the ass to avoid the shit grind you folks built into the game?  Sounds like a very good, sustainable business model.

What do you call it these days?  Pay to not play?  Let's coin an acronym: P2NP.  We might also call it the Zynga business model, though that's not a sexy.  Still, you can't miss the point that tons of folks hate playing your game so much they'll pay you money to bypass having to fucking play it.

But you're good at your job!

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 10:58pm:


I'm just curious. You heard it from players or staff?

There is a circling the drain effect with DDO.  The players express hate at any little thing, no matter what is done by devs, someone will be vociferous in their hatred of it and express their desire for its creator to be fired because it's so bad. 

After a while, management comes to realize that this behavior will never stop no matter what they do, so they then turn a deaf ear to the masses.  Regardless of how viable any suggestions from players are, they won't be heard.  The player population begins to leave, the remaining begin to realize the game is no longer entertaining to them and they begin to look around for something new.  Management is still deaf and the game begins to circle toward the drain even faster.

If you think Turbine is unique in this position, I can assure that ArenaNet and the Guild Wars 2 staff are receiving the same amount of hate as Turbine.  The current difference, so far, is that GW2 staff are still trying to find ways of listening to the good things the players are saying.

Want to see what is probably pinned up in every cubicle at Turbine?  This article

majmalphunktion wrote on Jan 16^th, 2014 at 10:58pm:


The idea of a niche game or a developer that doesn't need to beat WoW in numbers to consider their game a success is lost of most of the player population.

It's a Ricky Bobby world.  If you are not first, you are last!

Asheras wrote on Jan 17^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

I didn't claim "all" or even "most", just "many", so not applying to you does not weaken my argument.

And I'm sure you've seen this behavior in game - people who buy a ton of mana pots and supreme tomes to help them run with elite raiding groups, or to help them get an undergeared PUG to completion.

Even just buying cosmetic armor or pets, surely these are more attractive if you have an admiring audience not similarly equipped.

Or maybe it's as simple as you are friends with people who are fun to hang out with but don't spend a ton. If they leave or even just log in less, you are less likely to log in and buy the stacks of potions you use when you run with them.

Even all of those cases don't cover the whole range of motivations for people to spend big in the game, but they add up.

And I don't mean that to be critical of big spenders, it's a natural and healthy aspect of group dynamics. But if Turbine ignores that and feels they can blow off the small spenders, the game is in trouble.

It's 2 pages back now, but near the start of this thread I observed that the current login numbers were good news - most servers are stable for the last 3 or 4 months, ending a year long cycle of decline. And more importantly, signaling that Turbine *can* stop the decline, and that the population isn't in a vicious cycle of decay where shrinking population drives people away leading to ever more shrinking population.

Turbine has the ability and the need to hold population steady, we just have to make sure they realize that, and numerous statements they've made leave me unsure that they do.

The Oracle wrote on Jan 17^th, 2014 at 4:17pm:


Ditto for me. I was F2P for 6 months before my first purchase, and have spent about $500 over the past 4 years. No regrets for $ spent, it was worth it, but I'd like to continue to see a return on my investment. BTW, I own MOTU but not ShadowFail.

Also, F2P (and meaningfully F2P, not F2Try) was a major selling point to get friends to join me, some of which have ended up spending as much as or more than I have.

And I've voted with my wallet, my purchases have been below $100 for late 2012 through early 2014, and are unlikely to be anything at all in 2014. My friends are taking a break that shows no sign of ending soon, and without them I have little incentive to play or pay.

edit: My "walet share" for Turbine was about 75% up to 2012, about 50% in 2012, and about 25% in 2013. And I have thousands of TP still, I made it a point to buy points to support the game, so even if I spent TP in 2014 they aren't likely to be replaced with $ purchases.

Bill Z Bubb wrote on Jan 17^th, 2014 at 1:38pm:



that's not new.  not new at all.