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Where we try to give some direction (Read 6020 times)

Mr Reilly Stormreaver Piker Offline They're all gonna laugh at me. Posts: 673 Joined: Sep 22^nd, 2014 Gender:	Where we try to give some direction May 21^st, 2015 at 10:52am	Print Post
	So in the recent leak of the PC forums we see that Munk had voiced one of the biggest problems in DDO lately. Quote: Homogenization of the classes. (Here, everybody have hp, dodge, hamp, movement speed, crit profiles) And I think the issue is that Turbine never bothered to figure out what each classes role in the game should be.� So in this thread we try to give some direction by pointing out what should be fucking obvious to anyone working at Turbine.� You need to have a plan for each class. Here I've listed a few of the classes and my idea of where they should be in terms of damage, support, crowd control, etc... In no way am I an expert on most of these classes.� The only one I'd claim to be an expert on is Rogue and even then I'm sure people would disagree with some of what I put.� The point is to just give Turbine some damned direction. Supreme, Excellent, Moderate, Fair, Poor Barbarian (DPS) Base Attack Damage - Supreme Magic Attack - Poor Crit Profile - Moderate Magic Crit - Poor Self Healing - Fair Crowd Control - Fair Support - Poor Stealth - Poor Notable Barbarians - Conan the Barbarian, the Incredible Hulk Paladin (Tank) - Sacred Defender Base Attack Damage - Moderate Magic Attack - Poor Crit Profile - Fair Magic Crit - Poor Self Healing - Moderate Crowd Control - Excellent Support - Moderate Stealth - Poor Notable Paladins - Captain America, Superman Wizard (Support) - Enchantment Focused Base Attack Damage - Poor Magic Attack - Moderate Crit Profile - Poor Magic Crit - Moderate Self Healing - Variable Crowd Control - Supreme Support - Supreme Stealth - Moderate (DPS) - Evocation Focused Base Attack Damage - Poor Magic Attack - Excellent Crit Profile - Poor Magic Crit - Excellent Self Healing - Variable Crowd Control - Moderate Support - Excellent Stealth - Moderate (Summoner) - Pale Master Base Attack Damage - Poor Magic Attack - Moderate Crit Profile - Poor Magic Crit - Fair Self Healing - Variable Crowd Control - Excellent Support - Excellent Stealth - Moderate Notable Wizards - Gandalf, Albus Dumbledore Sorcerer (DPS) - Any Savant Base Attack Damage - Poor Magic Attack - Supreme Crit Profile - Poor Magic Crit - Excellent Self Healing - Variable Crowd Control - Moderate Support - Moderate Stealth - Moderate Notable Wizards - He who must not be named, Emporer Palpatine, Queen Elsa Rogue (DPS) Assasin Base Attack Damage - Poor Magic Attack - Moderate Crit Profile - Supreme Magic Crit - Poor Self Healing - Moderate Crowd Control - Moderate Support - Excellent Stealth - Supreme (Support) Mechanic Base Attack Damage - Moderate Magic Attack - Moderate Crit Profile - Excellent Magic Crit - Poor Self Healing - Moderate Crowd Control - Moderate Support - Excellent Stealth - Excellent (DPS) Thief Acrobat Base Attack Damage - Excellent Magic Attack - Moderate Crit Profile - Excellent Magic Crit - Poor Self Healing - Moderate Crowd Control - Moderate Support - Moderate Stealth - Moderate Notable Rogues - Mr Teatime, the Motherfucking Batman Feel free to add your own opinions on classes.
	« Last Edit: May 21^st, 2015 at 10:58am by Mr Reilly »
	- Zorro
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Mr Reilly Stormreaver Piker Offline They're all gonna laugh at me. Posts: 673 Joined: Sep 22^nd, 2014 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #1 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:08am	Print Post
	So already, we see one of the biggest offenders. Paladin, a class which should have a moderate crit profile, has one of the best crit profiles in the game. It's just given to them. No splash needed, so special stuff required. Take improved crit, throw on holy sword, and find a weapon that has a sweet starting crit profile and you're set. Meanwhile, the assasin should have a supreme crit profile. They have crap base attack damage but make up for it in sneak attacks, critical hits, and a faster attack speed. At least this is what rogues are like in most other games. Instead of giving them a bonus to critical threat range - to bring them up to at least level with Paladin - Turbine decided to show some restraint. This is why holy sword is overperforming. It's not overperforming, it's wrong for the class it was given to. To fix holy sword, it should be scrapped and done over. My suggestion would be to make it give the weapon holy damage type and a +5 bonus to enhancement level on the weapon being used. This would stack with artificer deadly weapons but not artificer holy weapons or artificer enchant weapon or anything equivalent to that.

	- Zorro
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Mr Reilly Stormreaver Piker Offline They're all gonna laugh at me. Posts: 673 Joined: Sep 22^nd, 2014 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #2 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:18am	Print Post
	Here is the template I used for classes. Code [color=#009900]Supreme[/color], [color=#009999]Excellent[/color], [color=#0000ff]Moderate[/color], [color=#ff00ff]Fair[/color], [color=#ff0000]Poor[/color] [size=20]Class Name[/size] [size=12](TYPE)[/size] [b]Base Attack Damage[/b] - [b]Magic Attack[/b] - [b]Crit Profile[/b] - [b]Magic Crit[/b] - [b]Self Healing[/b] - [b]Crowd Control[/b] - [b]Support[/b] - [b]Stealth[/b] - Notable Class Names -

	- Zorro
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Bigdickrichguy Horoluth Raider Offline I'm gunna put my dick<br />in your vag.<br /> Posts: 2096 Joined: Oct 10^th, 2013	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #3 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:21am	Print Post
	Munk was just crying that Barbs > Monks


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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #4 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:39am	Print Post
	what are those? what ass did you pull out those criteria from? Mr Reilly wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 11:08am: My suggestion would be to make it give the weapon holy damage type and a +5 bonus to enhancement level on the weapon being used.� This would stack with artificer deadly weapons but not artificer holy weapons or artificer enchant weapon or anything equivalent to that. seems garbage

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Asheras Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline This is why we can't have nice things. Posts: 10230 Location: Ohio Joined: Jun 9^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #5 - May 21^st, 2015 at 12:29pm	Print Post
	You list notable mages don't mention of Elminster, Khelben Blackstaff, Bigby, Tenser, or Mordenkainen? You go with Queen Elsa and Emporer Palpatine? You list notable rogues and ignore Gord? Assassins and you ignore Altair or Ezio or Artemis Entreri? Don't even get me started on your notable paladins. Neither of which bear any resemblance to the paladin class besides being lawful good heroes. Lame.


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Ah Pook Puppy Farmer Offline Posts: 314159265 Posts: 1439 Joined: Mar 10^th, 2014	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #6 - May 21^st, 2015 at 2:40pm	Print Post
	I think Superman's a wizard.

	Daggertooth wrote on Apr 14^th, 2017 at 6:52pm: I'm pretty fucking sure I am a special snowflake. Frank wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:32am: Laugh it up, funny man.
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Doggydaddy Titan Demolisher Offline Pull my Finger...... Posts: 324 Joined: Jun 24^th, 2014	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #7 - May 21^st, 2015 at 2:58pm	Print Post
	Seems like an awful lot of effort for a post that is once again, opinion paraded as fact shrug


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kum-gulp VoD Slasher Offline I Love Tired Vault Memes! Posts: 1812 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2010	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #8 - May 21^st, 2015 at 3:11pm	Print Post
	Quote: Turbine never bothered to figure out what each classes role in the game should be. I don't think that's true. I think the game is the way it is now due to player response, and that's how they chose to figure out the roles. A large part of the player base wanted, and very likely given the server sizes still wants, to be able to solo / shortman. That means less reliance on defined roles and needing others. Educated guess: I think it's deliberate and because of us. Caveat: I'm not saying I agree with what they did.


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Mr Reilly Stormreaver Piker Offline They're all gonna laugh at me. Posts: 673 Joined: Sep 22^nd, 2014 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #9 - May 21^st, 2015 at 3:27pm	Print Post
	Ah Pook wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 2:40pm: I think Superman's a wizard. I think Superman is a Mary Sue. Rubbinns wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 11:39am: seems garbage Yep, when you compare it to this: I made this thread earlier when I was trying to procrastinate from work, and probably didn't explain it well. Every class is getting all the same stuff because there doesn't seem to be any general idea of what role that class is supposed to have. There is no plan. Turbines just throwing anything at any class to try to make them more appealing without any thought about what the role of each class should be. Paladins never struck me as a class that would get a lot of critical hits. Now their crits are awesome. Holy sword gives them +1 to threat and multiplier at 14 plus a +1 enhancement bonus. On the other hand, assassin rogue seems like a class that should get a lot of crits. Or at least a class that would get more crits than a paladin. Instead they showed restraint and only gave a multiplier bonus at lvl 18. So the question is, what roles would you assign as a baseline for each class, and how would you balance them if you were on the players council?

	- Zorro
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Who Cares Not this guy ^^^ Offline You sir, are a dickbag. Posts: 1951 Joined: Dec 5^th, 2014	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #10 - May 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm	Print Post
	Any list of "notable wizards" that doesn't include Raistlin Majere is gay and retarded, much like the original post.

	Fuck Off, That is all Strakeln wrote on Feb 10^th, 2016 at 9:17pm: WC can do whatever he wants. [] wrote on Feb 6^th, 2017 at 11:26pm: Public Service Announcement: your servers are not dead; if you can't find groups, it means you suck and/or nobody likes you.
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OldCoaly Puppy Farmer Offline Why did you think this time would be different? Posts: 1564 Location: WAAHH!!!Testing stuff is HARD! Joined: Jul 1^st, 2011	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #11 - May 21^st, 2015 at 6:28pm	Print Post
	How could Turbine make it more clear that they are not interested in player input that does not affirm their already established intentions? OP, if you want Turbine to act on your input, you need to 1) make it appear to have been their idea all along 2) have it be trivially monetizable 3) require a new system 4) obsolete an existing system

	Groo The Wanderer wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:43pm: they will probably congratulate themselves on how long they "kept it going" never able to see that it could have easily managed to keep itself going for far longer if they had just meddled far less drastically and with some semblance of an actual gameplan. Darth Anonymous wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:11pm: Hearing something has "merit" but we don't have "time" kind of says everything about how Turbine works on things. eighnuss wrote on May 27^th, 2014 at 12:52pm: everyone but turbine knows that we are sad they are destroying our game majmalphunktion wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 12:12am: I don't make the game, I just get tested what they build. Sorry you are not happy. Skoodge wrote on Nov 27^th, 2014 at 6:54am: DDO is easy to summarize - the greatest game to suck the most ass. GooFY wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 5:36pm: Turbine - So incompetent that we are skeptical when they report their own incompetence. � Meursault wrote on May 11^th, 2015 at 8:10pm: Other companies will settle for shitting out garbage, Turdbin actually prefers to. Especially if they can get us to buy it, that just cracks them up. Meursault wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 2:50pm: Breaking something and putting it back together isn't as good as not breaking it to begin with, it's not even close. palmer01 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2015 at 9:05am: Devs do not care what players want - they already have an agenda and give out token gestures so the paladins can feel worthy. PersonaNonGrata wrote on Oct 4^th, 2016 at 1:24am: The DDO devs aren't motivated by a positive user experience.
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Houshi Dragon Raider Offline Click here to unnerf grease Posts: 209 Joined: Mar 2^nd, 2014	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #12 - May 21^st, 2015 at 6:39pm	Print Post
	I don't know what game the OP is refering to. But I do know I wouldn't have the slightiest interest in a game like the one he is proposing. It sounds stupid


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Revaulting Completionist (i.t.p.) Offline Posts: 10143 Location: Not in my pants Joined: Apr 3^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #13 - May 21^st, 2015 at 6:53pm	Print Post
	Mr Reilly wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 10:52am: You need to have a plan for each class. Turbine has a plan. Their plan is homogenization. kum-gulp wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 3:11pm: Educated guess: I think it's deliberate and because of us. This would be a fair guess, except you're missing the fact that Turbine gives no shits about what the players think. Turbine did all that stuff so that more players would group together.

	Silence is golden, but I only get silver rolls.
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Rubbinns The Undeserving Fuckwit Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 10460 Joined: Sep 4^th, 2013	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #14 - May 21^st, 2015 at 9:57pm	Print Post
	Mr Reilly wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 3:27pm: So the question is, what roles would you assign as a baseline for each class, and how would you balance them if you were on the players council? there isnt any balance. any one who thinks they can are super delusional. holy sword is too OP, then why are all the record speed runs in barb or shiradi?

	Mockduck wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:20pm: I don't think naming names would be a good thing for me to do, but I'd pretty much add anyone who's a know-it-all dick on the list.� Even if they are sometimes intelligent with their opinions, the way they state them in long, "i'm a lawyer at trial"-type posts makes me want to punch them in the face.� They act like whiney babies with god complexes and then freak out if someone so much as breathes criticism in their direction.
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Ah Pook Puppy Farmer Offline Posts: 314159265 Posts: 1439 Joined: Mar 10^th, 2014	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #15 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:42pm	Print Post
	Revaulting wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 6:53pm: Turbine has a plan. Their plan is homogenization. = D3.� zzzzzzz.� If anybody but Blizzard had put that out, it would have folded in two weeks.

	Daggertooth wrote on Apr 14^th, 2017 at 6:52pm: I'm pretty fucking sure I am a special snowflake. Frank wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2017 at 8:32am: Laugh it up, funny man.
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Coasterhops Korthos Resident Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 77 Location: West Coast, New Zealand Joined: Jan 2^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #16 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:58pm	Print Post
	Who Cares wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm: Any list of "notable wizards" that doesn't include Raistlin Majere is gay and retarded, much like the original post. Don't forget Pug and Quickben!


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Hiding Shroud Slacker Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1298 Joined: Feb 5^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: Where we try to give some direction Reply #17 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 12:25am	Print Post
	Rubbinns wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 9:57pm: there isnt any balance. any one who thinks they can are super delusional. holy sword is too OP, then why are all the record speed runs in barb or shiradi? Some shiradi builds can use wings, barbs have speed boosts - these help, no? I don't know if holy sword is too OP, but it seriously beats fighter. I kinda think barbs are the easy button now - all you have to do is take the right enhancements and you don't even have to worry about pressing buttons to heal, you just kill stuff and you're good. Paladins have to actually press a button to heal. And if they're targeted on undead, they lose the healing (and hopefully die, b/c that's funny). But, seriously, DDO is too fucking easy now. I just TRd to turn a twf fighter into a twf paladin and, wow, everything dies ridiculously fast. The only issue I have is sometimes forgetting to watch my health bar and then panic-healing. This game used to be challenging, elite used to be scaled for 4 people (was it 6 before that?).


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