harharharhar wrote on Feb 24
th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Without addressing the entirety of your post right now, why are you cutting the 10k Doubleshot in 4? 10k is active for 30 Seconds, inactive for 30 seconds. That means you divide 70 by 2, not 4. Also, DWS affords Killer, which is up to another 20% Doubleshot. If you're PK'ing everything quickly, I imagine those stacks would be relevant most of the time.
Also, at 60-70 wisdom, it's providing as much Melee Power as fully charged Blitz. But that's a separate discussion.
I appreciate the min/maxing this build does in order to get Terror Arrow DC's very very high. The issue however, is that running in EA completely cripples your Red Named DPS. You can switch to LD, but then you're DC takes a YUGE hit (3 from wisdom and 3 from core if I'm not mistaken). I actually don't take Scion of Astral plane, I take take Air or Feywild. Feywild seems smart on this build for terror arrows, but Air is better Red Named DPS by doubling up on Electric with Lightning Damage AA imbue.
As a monk you have access to 4 Wisdom through stances you cannot get on any other class split. And I while you are right that it is harder to max Wisdom when trying to also max Dexterity, Wisdom gives any enormous DPS boost to Monks through 10k that your build will never enjoy. .5 RP to be exact, for every point of Wisdom.
So, right now my pretty end game specced Monk who is max Dex and Secondary Wisdom has 56 Wisdom with a Yugo Pot, and 76 Dex with Tensers, in FOTW. I could pretty easily respec enhancements to favor Wisdom, and get that up to 60 without much difficulty. If I ran in EA that would be 66 Wisdom. ALso, T5 AA allows for -1 saves per projectile stacking, effectively giving AA versions of this build +5 DC, or 10 Wisdom, which already puts it at a higher DC than your build above. And that's without maxing 18 Wisdom at creation, and zero level up points going into it. Due to Monk and Ranger enhancements, there's actually more Wisdom and Doubleshot available to a Monk split than a 4 Ranger/Rogue/Arty split.
I'm just saying, also, due to the giant difference in Ranged Power (effectively 35 Pts higher) and AA Imbue damage (~200 a Shuriken at 450 Spell Power and T5), the Red Named DPS remains very strong. I would like to see Lama Red Named DPS tests in EA and LD for your build however, since I think that's the big weak spot, from a metagame perspective.
Once again, I don't mean disrespect, this is a really cool build and we're talking about marginal improvements at the edges.
harharharhar wrote on Feb 24
th, 2016 at 2:58pm:
My builds use Manyshot too, so you don't get to count that as an increased RoF. Its not so close, it's actually higher @4.3'ish, for shuriken only. If you'd like to calculate a total average vorpals per second number using your Manyshot uptime, EF uptime, and Vorpal range using GXB, that would be the best mathematical way to look at it, versus my combined rate of fire using 10k and Manyshot without expended Vorpal range.
We both use manyshot, but you don't benefit from any increased Vorpal range on Manyshot, so you don't get to doubledip there like EF and GXb for terror arrow procs. I also use Draconic Invig on shroud on portals, but it's a DPS hit in most situations, and you have to time it carefully because of it's internal cooldown.
It's a nice to have, but it does not ensure unending Action Boosts at all. It's cooldown is 100 seconds, but EF cooldown is 30 seconds meaning you will run out after about 30 secondsx9 Action boosts = 4.5 minutes. Within 4.5 minutes you can regen 2 boosts so you can go 5.5 minutes in quest before you are totally out of EF. After that until a shine you can only EF every 100 seconds if you use DI perfectly. That means pretty much all LE raids, and and some LH ones depending on group and party strength you will be operating for some or even significant parts with no consistent EF boost, even with perfect timing on switching to Invig, which actually is pretty spotty with how often it procs.
Shurikens dont suffer that drawback, ever, because they aren't boost limited. Again, not trashing your build, but actual game play is just as important as on paper planning/abilities.
I think where we are running into a disconnect here is that you are theory-crafting as opposed to referring back to actual tested builds. That's understandable because you thought that the Terror arrows were borked so you didn't try it yourself. I have played various versions of the Terror builds for the last 4 months, the GT itself was played by myself, some guildies, friends and family for the past three weeks prior to me posting the build.
The problem with theory-crafting is that beyond the initial conception, or leap off point it is too vague and allows points to be spend twice or thrice. For example you keep mentioning how you could tweak wis this way or that but forgetting to take into account in your argument that when you do so it's at the cost of Dexterity which has to be high for the volume of shots. Or another example your contention of how AA imbue is ~200 a shot, that's true you can but it doesn't apply when in fact you can't run elemental imbues while running Terror or any of the other imbues. Then there is the Wis issue, 56 wont get you any PK kills, adding 4 through enhancements? that costs your proc rate from dex, and it cost you twice. Then taking EA to get 6 wis? sure, but then the DPS drops from your type of build as well because it doesn't have the GT structure to make up for it. My point being when you argue with theory-crafting you can always say that you could stretch it one way or another, actually making it and playing it means your ideas have to really submit to the limits of points, something you are not doing here.
I think a additional problem we may be having in communicating is your lack of experience with the non-shuriken build. You have admitted as much in the past, even pointing out in this thread that you don't have "interest" in Xbows. An example of the problem this is causing is your understanding of the GxB vs Shuriken DPS. Let's just take a second and look at base damage prior to Ranged power at end game. Assuming both using LGS weapons, The GT will have 9[2d8] while the shuriken will have 7[1d2], that's 72 versus 10.5 before anything else. The GT gets another additional 16 points of base damage from Arty/Mech trees. The AA/DWS/ninja trees are not giving any damage points to base damage on Shuriken, and know you know that you can't run Elemental and Terror at the same time, so that immediately becomes the GT's 88 base damage versus 10.5 base damage for the Shuriken before ranged power or anything else begins to amplify that differnce. What you will find next is that the ranged power towards endgame just make the gap larger and larger as the difference of 76.5 points of greater base damage by the GxB grows with every point of Ranged power or damage boost. Then there is the criticals, assuming both run Improved critical the GT's GxB has a 15-20x2, while the Chucker's shuriken is 19-20x2. Then the Chucker takes another hit during manyshot because the GT has Improved critical
ranged weapons while the Chucker has
thrown weapons and as tight as feats are and because it's not a martial arts feat the GT will have a manyshot of 19-20X3 versus the Chucker types 20X3, I should also mention the GT gets a additional +5 bow damage the Chucker doesn't. Also during Manyshot? The chucker will have 167% doubleshot versus the GT's 157%, but the GT will have a insta-Kill DC of 82-88 while the Chuckers will be low 70's at best, unless you dropped Feywild for Air and lose another 2 DC, or drop Feywild for a additional 8% doubleshot to make it 175% versus 157% but with 4 less DC driving the Chucker even farther down into the 60's. (Keep in mind that at endgame a Terror DC in the low 70's will rarely if ever kill mobs, and will even occasionally struggle to fear them). Really, with the ranged critical bork, and loss of shuriken expertise % and Ninja training% during it's use, the chucker is losing so much doubleshot by using Manyshot that it's debatable if it's worth it, even for the X4 ranged power in light of the fact that it slows your Terror proc rate even farther behind the GT.
Let's see what else? The GT Also has the 17D6 worth of Sneakattack which is scaled 150% with rangedpower, and the constant fear, blindness, deception, imp deception working with IPS keep that huge SA damage near constant. The Runearm adds more damage scaling With 450 spell power, and Scion of Feywild adds Sonic scaling with that 450 as well. Another DPS plus, whenever I hit Dispel shot (every 3 secs), or leg shot on the GT that means a additional 3[2d8] or 2[2d8] compared to 3[1d2] or 2[1d2] using a shuriken would produce every time.. and that is again before scaling. Almost forgot, unlike my Shuriken builds I get to switch out Ammo for DR, bane, or Extra burst damage as well, it all adds up.
Most importantly, all that additional damage is running simultaneously with the Terror proc'ing a the endgame required DC of 82-88 while still in Exalted Angel. Could I crank it up top-end DPS by running in LD or DC? at the loss of 6 or 3 DC respectively? sure, do I need to? no.
This build's most recent red-boss Kobold time on the last Lamma was 68 seconds, while not as fast as my pure Mechs and some of my other builds it was easily in the park for what I was building for with a 82-88 terror DC.
The build starts a quest with 12 EF boosts, between those Manyshot, the Mech amped GxB RoF, TF reinvigoration GxB and TF reinvigoration longbow I have only run out of EF Boost charge once in the last month, and that was with a pug that brain-farted in LE shroud part II, that lasted less than a minute. Not only does 12 EF's give you a large surplus but alternating between GxB and Manyshot Longbow cuts the cooldowns to a point I have never missed it except in the mentioned instance. That's by design, also by design since the GT isn't built around using volume of shots to take advantage of blast effects from LGS and weapons like that it's a very little dent to DPS to switch over to a TF Tier III weapon every couple minutes. the loss of 1d8 damage out of 9[2d8] is easy to overlook.
So Endless fusilade works out thus:
If the GT fires all 12EF in a row that will take 360 seconds total firing, in that time the GT will reinvigorate 3 more boosts at the rate of 1 every 100 seconds, immediately using those 3 EF boosts will add 90 more seconds making total firing 450 seconds, which will produce 1 additional reinvigoration that when used will take the total firing time to 480 seconds and leave the GT 20 seconds on the TFGxB timer at which point the GT driver could Manshot the TFlongbow picking up another in 20 seconds, and which point the time is zeroed on the TFGxB, etc....
Now leaving out the Longbow and manyshot usage combinations I could point out lets instead look at what happens if for some silly reason the GT tried to burn them all out in a row like that:
The combination of constant EF every 30 seconds with a proc rate 2.3 added to the norm proc rate of 4.9 during cooldowns will produce 480 seconds, or 8 solid minutes of Terror fire with a proc rate of one every 3.8 seconds. And that is not taking any procs that improved precise shot would create during that same period.
And at the end of that 8 solid minute the GT would pick up 2 more Reivigorates in the following 28 seconds.
Now would a GT driver really keep hitting EF the moment Cooldown stopped like that? No, because it's very seldom anything is still alive after a couple of them with the heavy DPS and a Terror DC of 82-88. And if for some reason you did? you would have a constant combined proc rate of 3.8 and you would easily be able to switch back and forth on the two TFs every 50 seconds to charge boosts back up afterwards.
Like I said, I have run out of EF boosts
once in the past month, once.
Please try to understand that I'm a huge Thrower fan, I have a great deal of experience with them and have leveled and played them at end-game for years. As I said I had initially thought it would be the best vehicle for Terror, but in the end that just wasn't the case. You can indeed build a Chucker to nearly match the proc per second rate of the GT but it will have only mildly decent-ish Terror DC (low mid 70's), and the DPS will tank on any bosses making it useless. Or you can go the other way and build a chucker that will have even slightly better DPS than the GT, but it will have an absolutely useless Terror DC, being reduced to a CC build. That's what 9 years playing and the past 4 months of building/testing/playing have shown to be the case. I don't like min-max toons, I like builds that contribute near the top across the board, that's what I have made here. The GT doesn't need to deal with Ki for 10K, potion pop or scroll Tensors (BTW another -2 DC, and longer cooldowns), or even switch back and forth through Imbues to maintain DPS and effect. The driver can concentrate on sight lines and shooting for maximum IPS hits, or getting in position for the maxium effect from the EF's proc rate of 1 every 2.3 seconds. The GT can be handled almost entirely from one bar, with only the occasional spell or curse pot from a ancillary bar.
To you Jakeelala I would say simply this, I have a good deal of respect for your builds. I will tell you that if you think that you can make a Terror build from a chucker that will match the proc rate, DC, and DPS of the GT I for one, would love to see that and try it out in game. But you will need to post it, with all the stats, feats, enhancements just as I have here, and you will need to test it in the field. We can't simply extrapolate results from our other builds no matter how extensive our knowledge may be, it's too easy for points, bumps, etc.. to be spent multiple times in eagerness to argue a point of view.
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The Great Terror (Read 93480 times)
