Intro (feel free to skip for tl;dr)

As some of you know I just did a FvS life to TR an old toon into a warlock.  Not sure if a melee FvS was ever a viable build, but this build I picked up off the mother boards sucked massive ass in reaper.  I hated the fuck out of playing it when I started.  I started at level 7 and, even as quick first life, the first 5 levels were just fucking horrible.  Even trying to pike the hell out of other people’s reaper runs, it was just fucking horrible.

Here’s how much effort I put into the toon -

I put no effort into the toon.

I passed some decent, crafted level 8 melee gear I had on a mule over and that was pretty much all I bothered with, outside of a slavers trinket and a ToEE weapon (mostly because I’d grinded the mats and was curious to how they played).  I ran the entire life on basically level 8 gear (at ten I recrafted two pieces for a boost to positive energy since I needed to move things around for the sliver flame necklace).

Pugs are pretty much as horrible now as they were when I quit playing.  You get one of two groups -

Superstars with a gazillion reaper points blasting through R2-4 (who really should be running R5+).  Or

Random bunch of idiots and first lifers who shouldn’t be running reaper at all (starting out with zero reaper points, I was very much fitting into this category).

The clockwork groups where you can tell two or more members always ran together were more rare.  They’d blast through a dungeon in minutes and I had nothing to do…except be bored out of my mind.

Most of the pugs were just awful though.  A number of first lifers or poorly equipped multi-lifers all using the same tactics that have dominated the game for years now – try to zerg through and out kill each other while self-healing and trying not to die – which (of course) just about everyone’s going to die at least once (or more likely two to three times) per quest.

This all changed about level 12.

By level 12 I might as well have been made of glass.  I was getting to the point I couldn’t melee and self-heal at the same time.  Each hit took out close to half my hitpoints and my healing only restored a quarter.  About level 12 I switched tactics.

I stopped trying to melee and just healed everyone else. 

And just like that, for the most part, everyone stopped dying.  Once I started healing people, they almost instinctively switched back to the old tactics of grouping up closer (for heals) and supporting each other.

And we also started running on higher difficulties.  The R1 to 2 groups became R3 to 4 groups. 

From levels 13 through 18 I think I died twice.  Let me really stress that.  My gimpy, squishy, underpowered, crap-build, wearing nothing but level 8 gear, first lifer died maybe twice running a long streak of R3 to R4 groups because we started using the old-school tactics (and a designated healer).

Even the worst pugs with people (like myself) who had little to no reaper points and only 32 to 34 pt builds blasted through R3 quests with (almost) no deaths at all.

Even without reaper points, reapers actually pretty easy working as an actual group.  I think it took me right around 50 quests to level this toon from 7 to 20.  The XP was amazing (especially after we stopped running R1).

And if you have a ton of reaper points and find R4-5 easy, you could probably be running R10 if you changed your tactics.

ILoveExploits wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 8:41am:



Unless you are a melee ofc.

Skoodge wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 8:10am:


Self Healing is for chumps.  Forcing other party members to self-heal themselves when you could do it more efficiently is just shitty.

The clockwork groups work like clockwork because they wand whip/scroll each other and not themselves.

Two players standing still right fucking next to each other, alternating between sip/whip for single-digit self-heal results from CSW when they could wand whip someone else and get done in one third or one fourth the time is the the same next-level of stubborn stupid as the DDO Devs.

The quests don't get done faster if the party forces its members to stop and guzzle a quarter stack of CSW pots whenever the combination of DDO's brilliant quest design and carefully considered changes to AI & pathing result in DA: Orange or Red because someone opened a door.

Skoodge wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 8:10am:


Thank you for your service.

Please continue to lead by example.

Show folks that they can contribute to fast completions by being aware and considerate of the other players' red bars, even if they're not playing a Divine caster.

I could excuse a first character from understanding the value of UMD, but to fail to invest in UMD on a second character or TR and not try to help the group by wand/scroll healing party members as they're running from one combat to the next is inexcusably selfish and short sighted. 

Like the guy playing the "DPS Rogue" that avoided putting points into Spot/Search/DD/OL so they could "focus on Assassinating" or the Tempest ranger that won't hit ranged switches because he's fucking Tempest.

ILoveExploits wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 8:41am:

Nobody needs a designated healer when everyone helps with healing, but healing is necessary in Reaper.

OldCoaly wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 10:10am:

This.  Warlocks do so well for acquiring past lives because they've got a high UMD and can use the best healing scrolls earlier than other classes.  Also, warlocks can use their main/offhand to carry scrolls and HGS heal amp sticks 100% of the time, since their spell focus can be crafted on goggles/helm and spell damage can be crafted on gloves/cloak/trinket.  With a group of warlocks, there are no inherent weak links in terms of who can effectively contribute healing to others in the party.  When there's one warlock and a bunch of non-UMD capable toons, there's resentment for being the healing bitch when you aren't getting it reciprocated, and at the same time you could be charming/DPSing/CCing stuff more efficiency than most other classes to prevent healing that's required in the first place.

TL;DR: Don't heal yourself in reaper, heal other party members.

There will ALWAYS be people who over-estimate themselves and running Reaper with them is a waste of time.

Fortunately for me, I know I'm not one of the best players around. Knowing my limitations, I'll do Elite (Heroics) and EH, and EE but I steer clear of Reaper unless I know the group I'm in can handle it. Frankly, I am likely to be the weak link in most Reaper groups so I pick and choose groups to join carefully.

You just figured this out like 6 months in? 

Skrilla wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 4:13pm:


I've been back five months tops

I actually hadn't played much reaper at all before this life - at least not in groups.  I solo reaper till level 7 or so, switch over to soloing elite BB until I hit the quests I have to have a group and then will usually pick up a BB group over a reaper group.

I absolutely hate running with a bunch of 100th life casters with a hundred reaper points.  Everything is dead before you hit the mobs and when the mobs aren't dead, you're too busy chugging pots to fight, because most of those bastards won't throw a heal your way.

I'd rather solo elite than bother with reaper groups if I'm using a decent, well equipped toon.  The goal is to get my main melee strong enough he can solo at least R1 all the way through each life.

Digimonk wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 3:54pm:


I did not know that, but I made that toon when I still lived state side, so it's been at least 4 years ago I made it, probably 5 or more.

Digimonk wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 3:54pm:


Correct, a well-built toon with some player knowledge and strategy will always be better...

But you seriously can't overlook the bonus handy cap of having 300 extra hitpoints.  I mean, really, 300 extra sure as fuck doesn't hurt.  No, it's not enough for someone like Fran, but Fran is a special snowflake in his own category.  Yeah, you're still going to die if you're an idiot, but it is going to take longer with 300 plus extra hitpoints

Carpone wrote on Oct 30^th, 2017 at 12:53pm:


Specifically - if your toon sucks and you don't want to be a complete piker.

It is amazing how difficult it is to change a habit.   After years and years of entering a non-linear quest like gwylans or von4 or von2 or wiz king my instinct it split up and solo a side or area is still so strong.  On higher skulls though, that is a dice roll.   3 champs of the wrong type at the wrong time and you are toast. (If you are on a warlock or other dc caster, champs are worse than reapers because reapers are really easy to Charm.)

Skoodge wrote on Oct 31^st, 2017 at 7:40am:

FvS haven't changed much in 5 years, much less 5 months.  They weren't good at melee 5 years ago and aren't good at melee now.

SSG's recent update really didn't change much.   There might be a few niche/flavor builds that won't suck now, but their best use is still as a few levels of splash.  They're still solidly in the "anything they can do, another build/class can do better" category.

Contrary to what the average DDO players entitlement complex seems to indicate these days, reaper is not for casuals, nor even players in the middle of the bell curve.  It was designed specifically for hardcore powergamers and meta players that wanted a serious challenge.  Either get on the meta train or do exactly what you said and stick with EH/EE/R1.

As you've figured out, if you're not a hardcore meta player, anything beyond R1/R2 probably won't be much fun.   I wish more of the pubs would figure that out and stop whining on the mobos about Reaper being too hard.  They're high school vocational students complaining that they can't get a job at SpaceX repairing rockets.

Incorrect, pretty much anything run by a skilled player who understands and strategy will be better than even the most overpowered meta build run by a Fran.  That's what people don't get.  Player skill and teamwork is at least 80% of the game in reaper.  Build quality matters but is nowhere near as important.  I've run some pretty shitty builds as experiments which didn't pan out and still outperformed the vast majority of the pugs, no matter what build they were running.

As you said, the extra HPs and whatnot from reaper points are a "bonus".  They're in no way necessary.  When reaper was first released, nobody had "all those reaper points" yet my semi-static guild group was completing R7-R10s shortly after release.  One of the players in that group ran a 2nd lifer with ~1.2k hps and did well.

Skoodge wrote on Oct 31^st, 2017 at 7:40am:

It's different than that.  The best example I can give is listening to Frets reaper life youtube series in the background as I've been plowing through EPLs.  There are multiple times where you'll hear him ask/tell other members in his party "trade heals with me".  Asheras is spot on about breaking habits we've all picked up over years of playing.  Self-sufficiency used to be the gold standard.  Now reaper has changed that up so that while we still need to be capable of being self-sufficient, it's more effective to swap heals instead.

Asheras wrote on Oct 31^st, 2017 at 9:33am:


True...but then you also get the people over-reacting in the opposite direction.

Seriously, when we have 6 people in party, none of whom are Fran and at least 4 of which are competent, we'll be fine splitting into groups of 3 to cover 2 areas at once!  We don't always have to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya!

been playing reaper as Skoodge described how it should be played with guildies and always had a blast... Ok, except when I get to spend my time running after a multi TR Warlock...but still XP earned without effort is good XP. 

Skrilla wrote on Nov 1^st, 2017 at 8:20pm:


If it makes you feel better, I am pretty much the only person I see that plays an actual melee monk and not some weird ranged hybrid.