Rubbinns wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 2:42am:


Wisdom swap is rough with new cooldowns no question, but you can replace 4 of that with a stance switch I guess, though on an RP build you probably just build for Wisdom instead of dumping it like with an MP build.

Regarding DPS:

Do you know how many long bullshit cut scenes there are between DPS?

Waiting at doors in Baba for your teammates?

Waiting for next wave to spawn?

Running around?

This game DOES NOT reward constant DPS, it rewards BURST.

How about in baba when the shambling mounds pop? BURST.

How about anytime a dangerous champ and a couple reapers pop? BURST.

I do not ascribe to the meta that constant DPS is somehow preferable to being able to burst hard when it's important to do so. Maybe that's a playstyle bias from playing Fury for so long, but I think it's important. I'd rather have all the doubleshot and MP/RP at once during 10k than have it spread out for only part of 10k, and then some not during 10k.

Not my meta president, bro.

SpaceGoat wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:


I understand what he's saying. It is exceedingly rare that I am DPS'ing for a full minute straight. Even if I was I have to take small breaks to:
-heal
-kite
-refresh shorter buffs (tensers, KTA macro, etc)
-reposition
-raise dead friends

This is a fact of playing the game, and it is also a playstyle preference. Over 11 years, I've found I perform better with the option to turn it up to 11 when I need to, to get dangerous things dead faster. The difference between trash and not trash in DDO is HUGE. Trash can be instakilled, level drained, pinned, whistled, etc. Red names can not be any'd of those. That's where the DPS actually matters, and it's a small amount of overall time spent attacking in DDO. For me, playstyle wise, that means burst is where it's at.

If I exclusively solo'd high reaper quests with giant HP bags that took 5 minutes to kill, I would wholeheartedly disagree with myself about burst. But that's not really how I spend any of my time in DDO.

Also for your scenario, while it's true that you do less damage between 10k's on an RP, build, you actually do MORE DPS during 10k on the RP build. You have 30 seconds of your highest possible RP/MP simultaneously during your highest Doubleshot (+100% from 10k).

With the MP build you get only 20 seconds (At most with perfect timing) of Prowess along with 10k doubleshot, or 66% of the time. Between 10k's you ONLY get 10 whole seconds of prowess due to cooldowns.

So the question is: Is marginal +10 seconds of Prowess without 10k on the MP build as valuable as the marginal +10 seconds of RP during 10k? Obviously the answer is no, because you're throwing MORE shurikens during 10k than in between 10k's (close to 30% more for most builds). You are actually maximizing boosts with an RP build as opposed to the MP build.

SpaceGoat wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 3:42pm:

lol

Rubbinns wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 4:35pm:


**assuming equal values for MP and RP**

yes.

The whole point of the build is that op is able to get MP higher then RP

harharharhar wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 5:07pm:

You just agreed above that 1) 70 wisdom is more realistic 2) that you’re usually not standing still

SpaceGoat wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 5:16pm:


I agree 70 wisdom is more realistic for the MP build today, but I also said you can just build/gear for higher Wisdom on an RP build, which I stand by.

I am not normally standing still but you dont actually need to stand still to have AF stacks, you just need to stand still *sometimes* to refresh stacks

Sergod wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:


be quiet and let the grown ups talk

harharharhar wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 6:15pm:


You can build for anything, but there are trade offs. Either, ap build points, or gear.

Carpone wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 10:55am:

Not to mention, I've yet to see damage lost during item swaps and activating the abilities then swapping back to the original items accounted for.

Since swap times are mostly static (only changes based on lag and how many items you're swapping), only the duration and the % of DPS increase really matter.  That makes it clear that the net return on macro'd swap abilities heavily favors abilities with longer durations and abilities that provide large percentages of DPS increase.

For example, if you assume a 10k DPS baseline and a 2s loss damage dealing due to swapping, the ability being swap macro'd would have to increase the DPS of the remaining 8 seconds by >25% to start coming out ahead.  Realistically, it would need to increase it by 30% or more to be worth bothering with.

Assuming a 30s ability with 2s swap loss and a base DPS of 10k, the ability would only need to provide a 10% increase to start coming out ahead.  However, if you lose 5-6s due to swapping multiple items for it, you're back to needing a 30% increase to break even.

Obviously those are just examples and actual in-game numbers will vary, but it's still worth considering.  Equally obvious is that this is only a concern if you're performing the swaps mid-fight rather than just prepping it right before the start.

It's the whole dojo kobold problem all over again.  Certain builds can post big, shiny numbers after prepping 10 different clickies, scrolls, boosts and activated abilities before the timer starts but that gives zero indication of a builds' DPS and potential outside of boost time.  It would be interesting to see what the results were if the testers aggregated 10 kobold kills back to back with no downtime in between and posted the combined time and average the DPS across that combined time.

SpaceGoat wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 5:50pm:

Oh shit.  You're right.  I missed that.  Thanks for pointing it out.

It all makes sense now...

NightLord wrote on Feb 8^th, 2018 at 4:01am:

in comments