http://www.ddovault.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1498343159/475#494

Halfling Rogue split of some sort using Throwing Daggers and mainly the Vistani tree seems to me what the best throwers are right now.

Sorry, Makar, I don't have a split suggestion for you. I'm just now starting to think about re-doing my Monk 20 Shuricannon.

It would be nice if there was something in the Vistani tree that would allow Monks to stay centered with Daggers/Throwing Daggers.

I'm currently running 12brd/5rng/1rog; with Human/swash/deepwood/falconry/Vistani trees to grind out racial lives and It's tremendous fun. I throw various Deadly grenades to beat resists most of the time, using the 80% fletching to make them practical. l also use a couple different as spell-plagued darts and throwing daggers for all the great debuffs and damage.

At 18 I have a walk around doubleshot of 119% and I can boost that for 30% with Brd, 20% with Vist, or 18% with haste boost. Its so crazy when you post up in a good spot and just make it rain grenades with doubleshot of 239% between the simple-weapon expertise, multitude of missiles.

Also lots of special thrown attacks to slow, bluff, damage, reduce threat, etc. 

Currently is human, and am really looking forward to Halfling lives.   

Bishop wrote on Jun 25^th, 2020 at 3:05pm:


So I can see this as a good build for TRs. But for endgame you'd definitely want minimum of 6 ranger for sniper shot. Neither bard 6 nor bard 12 cores are really doing much, so we can drop this down to 3-5 bard levels. Leaving us 9-11 other levels to apply to our 3rd class. Which means probably 11 alchemist or 11 rogue.

If you are going daggers, I do agree that 3 bard / 6 ranger / X something seems like the most logical choice. Probably 11 rogue / 6 ranger / 3 bard. I don't know how this compares to 8 monk / 6 ranger / 6 fighter shuriken thrower however. Probably better, as you are a lot more efficient with points. 11 alchemist instead of 11 rogue would also could probably be pretty good, but it'd be giving up evasion entirely.

After looking at it and asking a few folks for some advice, the 11Rog/6Rngr/3Bard looks to be the split I will use.

Evasion, Sneak Attack damage, all those ranged feats, T5 DWS enhancements, and Swashbuckling are all really great reasons for that split.

harharharhar wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 5:49pm:

I edited my splits. I meant 3 Bard, not 3 Artificer.

Swashbuckling on a Dagger (even a throwing dagger) is pretty spiffy.

But I'll at least give your build a quick look.

makar wrote on Jul 7^th, 2020 at 1:24pm:



Yes It's a racial reincarnation build, and great fun, but not much use at 20+, the grenades quickly stop being on any impact by 19. It's great fun to level with, and I've done 8 lives with it now, I would like to do a version with more rouge levels, but it will have a much lower double shot so who knows.

Alex DeLarge wrote on Jul 8^th, 2020 at 5:48am:


Bard gives +10'ish damage, +1 crit threat (not important if you play this build correctly as burst), and 10% Doubleshot. 10% Doubleshot is pretty low given the builds true extra shot chance which I assume you're aware of.

The damage is the only part that matters (from +3 Fatesinger Twist and the +6 from Dashing scoundrel). 4 Dex, 20RP, 3SA dice and infinite SA range from DWS Capstone largely makes up for it in me experience (I've run both now since returning to game).

Ranger gives +20'ish damage on FEs (8-10 of them), and you can use the AP for more of DWS/VKF abilities. Also a ton of dex in Harper if you're not spending it in Bard tree.

Like I said, a little bit more DPS. Unless Bard 3 is bringing some special things to the table I am not aware of, feel free to PM if so.

The bard gets +2 threat +1 multipler on darts and other simple thrown weapons. This applies to grenades, sunflasks, bottled fear, etc... All which benefit from the varous doubleshot bumps.

makar wrote on Jul 8^th, 2020 at 9:48pm:


Yup these are all important considerations to be sure. I know at least one person on this boards you would respect who is running a deep alch split for exactly the reasons you list above. DPS trade off is minor (90% of it is front loaded in VKF/Simple Weapon Expertise/High Dex/Feats/ED (Shiradi or Fury, generally. Tho SD is fun with infinite SA), but the utility you can exchange for a small amount of SA dice is quite large.

My next split I'm going to try is 14 Pally/4 Cleric FvS/2 Rogue. Lose Sniper Shot, but gain a lot of other fun things, and Pally spell casting is now quite strong (14RP/10% Doubleshot/14PRR+MRR/+3-4 Luck Damage/Heals/LoH), and Tier 1-4 of Warpriest are pretty neat including saving 8AP in Harper for KTA by using Divine Might (which buffs Attack and Damage with Wisdom to doubledip on Will saves), Enflame, Vulnerability stacks from any weapon, AoE heal, 10% Doubleshot.

Bishop wrote on Jul 8^th, 2020 at 11:28pm:


Vistani gives you +1/1 threat and multi so no, it's +1 threat from Bard. I ignored you the first time you got it wrong.

Doubleshot boost is lame, RP is much better so who cares. Dodge you can make up in tempest if you want, or halfling. Ranger also very useful fort bypasses (20%, 45% with the debuff).

You also lose a lot of optionality needing to have an empty offhand for that doubleshot and +6 Damage, it's not all upside

harharharhar wrote on Jul 8^th, 2020 at 10:27pm:


I need them to put lamma up before I'll decide, but "fun" is a big factor for me as well (so long as its still competitive), so I'm actually leaning towards the alch split now.

SD is fun in general right now because so many of the abilities are "broken" in a way that they work for almost any build, though shiradi is still the best imo (fury situationally for certain quests/raids).

I'm a bit confused by your split you list here. I'm not sure the 2 rogue / evasion is worth the trade off of MRR cap (for endgame - also one of the reasons people are avoiding monk based throwers)? It sounds like a fun build, strong consistent damage but it does raises the question of whether or not that's worth the trade off of burst. I've found that in addition to burst being fun, it is extremely necessary nowadays for dealing with doom reapers. The loss of sniper shot here seems like it would hurt?

Anyways, thanks for the productive convo - it has me actually spreadsheeting again in prep for lamma, which is to say that I'm excited to try some new stuff.