Well, damn, 5 more runs of CITW, and I would have had Celestia, then I was going to TR and try this build out.
And them I'm hit with a 14 day ban.

whoa what happened? were you mad duping?

So. After 30 ToD's (including short 6 manned ones on elite completing on ~17minutes by the end lol) I FINALLY got a Gilvenors ring for the set.

My throw rate BEFORE gilvenors over multiple tests resulted in:

Level 28, Blinding Speed, Quickdraw and Rapid Shot (build posted on first page of this post)

No Gilvenors, No Tensors:
35.86 Seconds / 50 Throw Animations: ~.7172 Seconds/Throw Animation

Gilvenors, No Tensors:
35.55 / 50 Throw Animations: ~.711 Seconds/Throw Animation

No Gilvenors, Tensors:
35.50 / 50 Throw Animations: ~.71 Seconds/Throw Animation

Gilvenors/Tensors:
35.25 / 50 Throw Animations: ~.705 Seconds/Throw Animation

So....

Tensors results in increased Ranged Alacrity
Gilvenors stacking bonus results in increased Ranged Alacrity

Sadly, as I suspected, it's almost nothing. I believe the issue here is this:
Throw animation = X at level 1, with no feats. For the sake of theory, lets call it 2 seconds. X = 2 (seconds).

Now, the following feats increase Thrown Attack speed:
Quickdraw
Rapid Shot
Blinding Speed

On a level 7 Monk, assuming X throw speed (though it might be more like 1.05X for having >5 BaB) the Heroic feats do the following:

Rapid Shot: 14.72% Increased RoF (81.5 Seconds / 50 Animations vs. 69.5 Seconds / 50 Animations)
Quickdraw: 14.72% Increased RoF (81.5 Seconds / 50 Animations vs. 69.5 Seconds / 50 Animations)
Combined Effect of Both Feats: 24.79% Increased RoF (61.3 Seconds / 50 Animations vs. 69.5 Seconds / 50 Animations)

I think we can assume that as programmed, these bonuses are supposed to be 15% and 15% for Quickdraw and Rapid Shot. I think due to limitations of my testing, the combined effect is also supposed to 25%. Wheres the other 5%?

I have no idea. The only thing that is clear is that increasing your sources of Ranged Alacrity (Feat, BaB, Enhancement, or Competence) stacks in a way that DECREASES the effectiveness of further increases. I am about to ETR/TR/ETR again, so I will update this post as I have more data at different levels and feats. For example, now that I have Gilvs on my thrower, I will test at lvl 20 without Blinding speed. When I TR, I will test it at 18 with and without the two Heroic feats. BaB (Tensors, Divine Power, Divine Crusader) definitely makes a difference. And in fact, it seems to make a BIGGER difference if you're using a Bow instead of a Thrown Weapon, but that could be noise in my not quite exhaustive testing.

I suspect Gilvenors will make a much bigger difference without Blinding Speed. I believe Tensors will behave the same.

Also...  thinking about going Halfling over Drow, partly for flavour, partly because I mostly solo and like to run with an increased Dodge cap as far as I can make it go.  It strikes me that if you're giving up on OC, you only need enough Str for Power Attack in any case.  However, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find the AP to put in the racial tree anyway.  Does No Mercy stack with Sense Weakness?  If it doesn't, then I'll just twist SW and claw the needed points back out of the Assassin tree.  If it does stack, that's hard-to-give-up DPS vs opponents affected by Nerve Venom, so I'm unsure...

Thoughts?

yes No mercy and Sense Weakness both stack.

Ive only trained in No Mercy again because of Stand and Be Judged, otherwise I run without it for more dex other places and SA. Since I'm mostly running SD now, it's less important.

Shadow Dodge does seem to be additive, as it were. Prefer not to dwell on that.

i can only imagine he wants it for twists, or for charging Blitz when in LD (so he can train Momentum swing and Lay Waste). But it's not really a good twist, and those things are slow.

So I have no idea why he wants PA either frankly.

harharharhar wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 12:30pm:



That's where my head was at, but really I wasn't thinking at all...  I am so used to doing things that way that I wasn't considering NOT having Power Attack, if you follow me; it was just a reflex.  The only toons I've not taken the feat on before are pure casters and the pure repeater Arti who is going to be TR'd into this build (or something similar).

Any thoughts on Drow vs. Halfling?

This build and this thread is fantastic HarHar,

I was just going to leave my thrower at cap, I couldn't see any reason to TR, but the tensors looks friggen fun!

harharharhar wrote on May 7^th, 2014 at 5:46pm:




No, no, Thank you! I insist!


I totally understand that mate!  I have tried running other throwers without Shuriken expertise and it just drives me nuts, and without whirling wrists? arrrrrrgh!

Well this really is cool, it has had me crunching number and pouring over stuff for a couple hours now man!

And that is the sign of a fantastic idea.

found it

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/439725-Throwers-Haste-Haste-Boost-Echo...[/url]

go to the google cache.

Tensors is mainly for the +4 alchem dex. The fact that it makes most forms of ranged alacrity unnecessary is a nice added bonus I'm just learning about.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tzM5jPgfOYUJ:https://www.dd...

I fight with returning so I tend to test with returning.

also it would be a whole lot of non-returning stars, I can sit and test for hours at a time when I tweak something. 

interesting tidbit about the animation and arrows as well thanks!

Base damage doesn't change across ED's much. A little bit in Shiradi, a few base damage in the cores. The rate of fire is a contentious issue, but it seems to cap at each BaB based on sources of alacrity.

What makes the biggest difference in base damage is whether or not the ED has Dex as a stat choice. Dex is the ultimate source of base damage.

Damage Mod:
+35 (Dex)
+11 (Deadly)
+4.75 (TF Base Dice)
+2.4/1.2 (Seeker VI/Seeker XII, 10% Crits) This is from Ring of the Stalker or Consuming Darkness depending on your gearing
+0-4 (Drow)
+12 (Enchantment Bonus TF)
+3 Arcane PL
+3 Monk
+6 Ranger but I think it doesn't work

So as I said, with the exception of Drow, the base damage on a shuriken build is most heavily affected by Dex modifier, then Enchantment Bonus of Weapon, then Deadly. All the rest is important as increased sources of damage, but those make of the lions share of the value.

For me personally my base damage is around ~70 before ED stance.

I usually run in SD, I have a lots of SA damage on this character. 12d6+2 listed under Sneak Attack feat, plus another 12 from Masque, and 8 from Avithoul. And of course TF procs.

Here's a fun picture of my damage to a helpless mob with 20 stacks of Vuln, and archers focus. AKA my damage to red/purples until they fix stand and deliver.