Starkjade wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 2:16pm:

That's better!

GooFY wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 1:44pm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677OoDGU0ig

It was more along the lines of "Shit on the players; they'll pay us more," than "shit out garbage."

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 2:10pm:


You should go to the MB and join the Troll Army.

Crotch Goblins wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:


So I'm a Paladin Troll.  Is that a new Iconic coming out?  Do I have alignment issues?

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:


Trolls can be Paladins, ones a race the other is a class.

Crotch Goblins wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 4:16pm:


I would be surprised to not see any video games to be made using the new rules released in the next couple of years, but it seems to me that the MMO format is losing popularity across the board.  I assume that the continuous resources necessary to keep MMOs going is a factor.

As far as greed goes, yeah, WotC is famous for pulling as much money as possible from its games and then making the old versions obsolete when releasing a new one (see: Magic) but with video games, there is no direct connection between them.  Having it around doesn't detract from your other games.

Think of DDO as a faucet in your laundry room.  You might not use it every day, but it's still a source of water. If it starts leaking, you fix it, but as long as the water is there, might as well have it instead of just using your kitchen and bathroom faucets.

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 11:40am:

Cordovan does not prepare for his videos.  He does not prepare his characters for general play, nor does he prepare them for the particulars of the quests he will run. 

I don't expect Cordovan to play at the highest levels, but he blows off preparation completely.  For example, plays a character with trap functions, but cannot find his Search/Spot/DD/OL gear (and runs out of rogue tools). 

This is not a skill issue, it's an acceptance of slop.


Regarding the dialogue, the "ha ha, tin foil hats" thing was a completely avoidable but very revealing gaff.  He does it often enough for it to be an unambiguous indicator of the regard he has for the playerbase.

Prior to earning a paycheck from Turbine, he hosted the DDOCast (until Podcast #190 (audio only)).  I've listened to some of them, and his commentary was much more sensitive to the player point of view. 

Now, he's pretty dismissive, and it's hard to think it's not a result of his immersion in the Turbine culture.


Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 11:40am:


Fernando's position on the value of addressing customers' perceived needs is no secret.  There's a youtube video where he unambiguously states that "Players will complain but not leave" while giving a presentation about the microtransaction model, and it's been linked here on The Vault as well as well as http://lotrocommunity.com/ 

Turbine's demonstrated business model in DDO is for developers to "pursue whatever pet project is currently interesting without regard for it's impact on legacy systems or it's sustainability nine months beyond deployment". 

The result of this business model is shit, and it fosters animosity.


I know some people choose to label you "paladin", but I pay attention to you and appreciate that even though you have a higher tolerance for Turbine's slop than I do, you're often critical of turbine when you think it's appropriate.  Having said that, the Sony/Wikileaks comment coming from you is a disappointment.

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 11:07am:


It's true that other MMOs and on-line games have similar complaints.  What seems unique to Turbine is the dismissive attitude that the Turbine developers have toward well constructed and supported customer feedback on their existing and proposed systems.

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 11:07am:


You should not need examples of how they shit out garbage, but here's an example of garbage that was shit out and remains shitty even now: CitW.  They were told CitW would suck early enough in its development to do something different, yet they doubled down on keeping it shitty.

Here's another one:  Version Control.

OldCoaly wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 4:44pm:


Your criticism of Cordovan is legitimate.  Not having rogue tools available or having your gear organized prior to doing a video in public is sloppy and embarrassing.  And it makes the game seem confusing and hard to navigate.  It should look like "No matter how much gear I have, I can have everything at my fingertips with these cool hotbars we have".  Which is actually a benefit over NWO and other MMO's that I have seen recently. 

The criticism that his toon dies or doesn't twitch well or isn't "max dps" are the ones that I disagree with.  He shouldn't be walking around owning content so fast that the user can't follow what is happening.  It is easy, when you have a quest memorized, to run around without even looking where you are going and to spin so quickly you give the audience vertigo and no idea where you just went.  I've taught DDO to 3 of my kids and my wife.  Each time, it required monumental patience to slow down enough for them to follow what is happening.  I did not bumble with my inventory or run out of tools or spell components.  That would just make them even more confused.

I agree with you that Turbine's results are shit.  I agree with you that this is probably due to managerial dysfunction, process dysfunction, and individual employee incompetence.  I do not agree with any concept that it is intentional.  There is no value in intentionally failing. 

Their stance of "we do not bend to customer complaining" is not unique in the software industry.  Sometimes you give the people what they want, but when they want something that is bad for them in the long term, then sometimes you have to say "No".  And most customers will complain, but accept, and move on.  Their handling of this is poor though.  You can't ignore them 100% of the time.  And when you do, you have to make it clear why.  In this, they have failed miserably and created a situation where people actually think they want to fail because they think it is fun to torture the players.  Which is absurd.  But they are so inept that players have a hard time believing anyone could mess up this bad unless they were trying to do so. 

The Wikileaks comment was a joke.  I should have thrown a smiley in there to notate that.  I was making a pop culture reference.  Not trying to be a dick. 

I do not need examples of their shitty performance and sending out garbage.  CiTW is a great example.  Horrible raid.  Just abysmal.  The loot problems from CiTW to High Road to eGH to Storm Horns is another example.  Inconsistency in Bound statuses, random loot vs. non-random.  Upgradable loot vs. EN/EH/EE variants, disappearing prefixes and suffixes, inconsistency with crafting, ML variations, Invalidating loot too quickly.  Turbine has been shit.  And that doesn't even touch bugs, exploits, builds, etc.  In my opinion, since 2012.  3 years running.

Meursault wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 4:53pm:


And use it to BEAT PEOPLE TO DEATH WITH!!!

Asheras wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 5:04pm:


Asheras, I respect your viewpoints, but I wholeheartedly agree with Old Coaly's comments.
My criticisms of Cordovan are about his professional behaviour.
I don't expect JJ Abrams movie quality from Turdbine, but Cordo's videos look like a two startup trying to get seed funding.  Tolero eating her lunch in the background, His wife cleaning in the background, dogs barking - really?
Your objective in promoting a product is to remove the unnecessary distractions to your message and to feature your product in its best light.

It's okay to go with the everyman appearance in the vids if that is your target demographic, but his dress, his manner, his lack of preparation - they're just not what it should be for an established game company.  I realise this is not all Cordo's fault.  Turdbine have been terrible at promoting the DDO product, so Cordo is doing what he can.  As you acknowledge, the lack of preparation is simply not good enough.  It should look "off the cuff", but it definitely shouldn't be executed that way.  He should plan which content will look best, which toon and gear will look and perform ok in that content.

's comment was along the lines of no matter what we produce, they'll keep paying for it because it is DnD.  This prevailing attitude in Turdbine is that they don't need to bother with advertising, or quality or design excellence - because their will always be schmucks willing to pay for it.
The Paiz's took that attitude to LOTRO and look where it is now.

My beef with Turdbine is in the mismanagement of the wonderful IP they have.  Sure they're dealing with an older game and older code and old hardware.... but the fundamentals of any business is attracting new paying customers, retaining them and rewarding loyalty.
How many of those three can anyone give Turdbine credit for?
Attracting new paying customers
Targeted advertising could bring in heaps of new people.
Combine that with a Korthos revamp and polish (fix the damn intro quest).  Combine that with a quicker startup experience by doing two things/
1. Get some experienced players (the PC even) to redesign the class paths so they're relevant to today's game.
2. Give each new toon an LR20 (BTC) so if a player sticks around and does not like a path, they can change once.

Using the class paths eases the learning curve of the game and gives quicker immersion.

Retaining paying customers
This is more than new content every 3 months (which is pointless if that content is crap).  It is also the quality of life bug fixing.  The really bad ones first.  The meta ones that might see players leave in anger.  Corrupted toons, lost gear/XP/ED's, bugged Hireling AI (new players probably use these the most) etc.
Then the ones that break immersion.
There are some low hanging fruit that defy belief as to why they're not fixed.

Next is to broaden the play experience from just XP grind.  Choose and fix a crafting system, promote it, support it and maintain it.

The TR/ETR system is a good way to extend gameplay, even though it does spread out the player base.

Develop some desirable stuff for people to work towards - something that isn't related to power creep but makes the game easier to enjoy (eg. pot cases, scroll cases, component cases - find a way to make these work).  Yes, they will want to sell them, but make a really cool one that is an earned reward.

Rewarding Loyalty
Turdbine work on the premise that players last no more than 9 months on average.  So what are they doing about it?
What incentives do they offer to help address it?  I can't recall any longevity based rewards.

It shouldn't matter whether you are FtP, Premium or VIP - there should be some incentive to be active in the game.  If you're spending money, even better!  Encourage those long term spenders to stay.

Instead, they just presume that the die-hards will always be there and milk them dry.

So much more to say, can't be bothered as it is all wasted words because Turdbine mgmt and devs are so much smarter than all of us.

DropBear wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 7:56pm:


Not presume. They have historical data showing just that. It has been alluded by others and outright said by maj this was the case.

mystafyi wrote on May 12^th, 2015 at 8:57pm:


If this is indeed the case, then the best we can hope is for WotC to issue a license for another DnD-based MMO so we can all jump ship.

Let these pedants and arrogant sycophants learn the hard way that sometimes, the cost being "Right" means you lose.

Let their data pay their rent and stand with them in the Unemployment line.

Hopefully, the new developer will take notes and build on some of DDO's unrealized potential:

- Nigh-legendary and universally recognized IP with amazing fan loyalty
- Action-RPG, but more than Hack n' Slash (at least it used to be)
- Enormous build flexibility
- Traps that are actually dangerous
- Immersive environment with massive wealth of lore in multiple settings
- Tasteful treatment of body types and weaponry (not WoW-esque Anime BS) and
- Impressive but plausible visual effects.

A brother can dream, right? 

Hmm, Maybe the Epic Vale, will be just 1 Giant Floating ass that craps out demons... umm shit demons at us... (this is a joke, turbine do not do this)