TractorsareEpic wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

This is reasonable.  Every other option presented so far is not acceptable.  It gives a reason for TRing at level 28 instead of TRing at level 20.  Whether it's a "good" or "bad" reason will remain to be seen.  I don't have much faith in the designers to create ED past life feats that are good and work within a year of the system's release.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR/page64...

Originally Posted by Cableman 
So you're going to reimburse Epic XP on a 1:1 scale even though Epic XP comes with about a 300% bonus? You will have people just farming Epic XP, cashing it in for Heroic just to run Epic again. Rinse, repeat and more than likely you will see your first epic completionist in less than a month.

**************************************
Vargouille's post
One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)

Originally Posted by Kers 
How about actually coding in several options at TR, where the player can select the one that they prefer. Don't perma-lock them into that option by giving the choices again the next time they TR.
This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).

rest wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:26pm:


And we could get some chips and salsa while we waited!

This is sounding a lot like enhancements a year ago. Float some (mostly bad) ideas, get a lot of thought and solid feedback from players, make some vague promises about reflecting on the feedback, and then ignore it all.

Expectation level: low, as always.

Darkrok wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 6:07pm:


Yup, nothing more, nothing less... Producer Chiming in to do some damage control.

Probably because since the talks on that has started they have seen in statistics a decrease of login and or other stuff, this added to the Forum Rage starts to worry them.

Maybe we should start telling the net medias about the upcoming NGE ( with two blades : Enhancement Crash and TR Fail ) for DDO... After all it worked for the Offer Wall.

TractorsareEpic wrote on Jun 17^th, 2013 at 7:15pm:


They seems to be dead set into killing the ED XPs...

Instead of fucking up TR, they should rebuild an End-Game... Once it has been done, the way to handle Epic TR will be obvious.

( and the new update is going to fuck up even more the end game as there won't be any fucking LVL 28 raid )

Motivations, Intentions and Everything else aside...

I could wrap my mind around a system that offers 3 choices.

1) Heroic TR: At 20, EDs Not affected, Get Heroic PL
2) Epic TR: At 28, Flag One ED to get EPL in,  other EDs unchanged. Start Next life at level 1.
AND
3) Epic TR: At 28, Flag an ED to get EPL in.  AND Flag as many other EDs you wish to get Epic Advantage to start next life at a higher Heroic Level.

It preserves the current Heroic TR, HONORS those who have already Maxed EDs by allowing them to retain them through both Heroic and Epic TR if they wish and allows players the choice to Trade in ED/Epic earned XP for a head start in a new life.  This I believe would be attractive to new players and experienced players as well.

I think it would also honor the spirit of D&D which has seemed sorely lacking over the past year or so.   Major changes to house rules that screw players is a fast way work yourself out of the role of Dungeon Master.

Flav wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 2:16am:


Not damage control, no tin foil hat stuff in sub numbers. I told you, times change.

majmalphunktion wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:32am:


What about bank space? I have several TR toons with BtC stuff and am constantly running out of space. With all these new options for TR being discussed, is bank space also in the talks?

OldCoaly wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

:tinfoil hat on:

Perhaps this eTR discussion is meant to serve as a distraction to draw attention/heat away from the Enhancement changes?

:tinfoil hat off:

majmalphunktion wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:32am:



I'm not sure why but I believe you.   

So this was really just a fishing expedition?

majmalphunktion wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 9:32am:


Times may change, but a leopard doesn't change his spots.

Kimberlite wrote on Jun 18^th, 2013 at 11:10am:


We have much shorter memories than that.  if the ENH don't suck and they get rid of this stupid idea of resetting ED XP it'll be a lovefest all over again.