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hotfix 3.19 (Read 41356 times)

KilgoreTrout Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 214 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #75 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:09am	Print Post
	But seriously Maj, what code practices do you guys use? Do you have source control or is there a flashdisk that does the rounds? The number of issues reintroduced in live after being fixed in Lamma are ridiculous. Also, do the developers do any form of peer code review? How does a bug like the Die 20 timer get through QA without being fixed? Seriously, I'm not being an asshole. As someone who is a software engineer for a company with a complex eco-system I'd love to know what the fuck goes on there.


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NOTSunnyshadow Out of Order Offline Kobold remember waterworks! Posts: 2193 Joined: Jan 24^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #76 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:27am	Print Post
	KilgoreTrout wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:09am: But seriously Maj, what code practices do you guys use? Do you have source control or is there a flashdisk that does the rounds? The number of issues reintroduced in live after being fixed in Lamma are ridiculous. Also, do the developers do any form of peer code review? How does a bug like the Die 20 timer get through QA without being fixed? Seriously, I'm not being an asshole. As someone who is a software engineer for a company with a complex eco-system I'd love to know what the fuck goes on there. Give Majmal some slack - all that was planned in advance.

	En taro Tassadar!
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Silky Shroud Slacker Offline Posts: 1267 Joined: Dec 7^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #77 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:28am	Print Post
	NOTSunnyshadow wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:27am: Give Majmal some slack - all that was planned in advance.


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OldCoaly Puppy Farmer Offline Why did you think this time would be different? Posts: 1564 Location: WAAHH!!!Testing stuff is HARD! Joined: Jul 1^st, 2011	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #78 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 10:20am	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:15am: I have that program. And we do track it. Screenshot or it didn't happen.

	Groo The Wanderer wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:43pm: they will probably congratulate themselves on how long they "kept it going" never able to see that it could have easily managed to keep itself going for far longer if they had just meddled far less drastically and with some semblance of an actual gameplan. Darth Anonymous wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:11pm: Hearing something has "merit" but we don't have "time" kind of says everything about how Turbine works on things. eighnuss wrote on May 27^th, 2014 at 12:52pm: everyone but turbine knows that we are sad they are destroying our game majmalphunktion wrote on Aug 30^th, 2013 at 12:12am: I don't make the game, I just get tested what they build. Sorry you are not happy. Skoodge wrote on Nov 27^th, 2014 at 6:54am: DDO is easy to summarize - the greatest game to suck the most ass. GooFY wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 5:36pm: Turbine - So incompetent that we are skeptical when they report their own incompetence. � Meursault wrote on May 11^th, 2015 at 8:10pm: Other companies will settle for shitting out garbage, Turdbin actually prefers to. Especially if they can get us to buy it, that just cracks them up. Meursault wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 2:50pm: Breaking something and putting it back together isn't as good as not breaking it to begin with, it's not even close. palmer01 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2015 at 9:05am: Devs do not care what players want - they already have an agenda and give out token gestures so the paladins can feel worthy. PersonaNonGrata wrote on Oct 4^th, 2016 at 1:24am: The DDO devs aren't motivated by a positive user experience.
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Booooga Dragon Raider Offline Drama? What's drama? Posts: 258 Location: In teh nose Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #79 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 10:51am	Print Post
	Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:24am: Drow cosplay costume of Tolero? No... my eyes... what the...


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eighnuss Epic Poster Offline ด้้้้้ ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ ͩͩͩͩͩͩ Posts: 3468 Location: ด้้้้้็็็็็้้้้้็็็็็ ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ Joined: Jan 30^th, 2013	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #80 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:03am	Print Post


	ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩDISCLAIMER: This post is provided �as is� for informational purposes only. The Department of Vault Security (DVS) does not provide any warranties of any kind regarding any information contained within. DVS does not endorse any commercial product or service referenced in this post or otherwise.
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Angry Puppy Farmer Offline Posts: 1699 Joined: Feb 13^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #81 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:05am	Print Post
	The classic drow look always make me think of this color of horse


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KilgoreTrout Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 214 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #82 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:51am	Print Post
	Sim-Sala-Bim wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 6:24am: Drow cosplay costume of Tolero? The one in the middle looks kind of like the type that I would try to pick up in nightclubs after about 6 beers in my glory/single days. Cuteish and seemingly attainable in my drunkenish state. Also, I may be about half way through a bottle of wine right now. I'm not too proud of that either. Also, at least she has the pride not to go all blackface and shit.
	« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2014 at 11:54am by KilgoreTrout »

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majmalphunktion Major Motherfucking Malphunktion Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 283 Joined: May 20^th, 2011	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #83 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:02pm	Print Post
	KilgoreTrout wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 9:09am: But seriously Maj, what code practices do you guys use? Do you have source control or is there a flashdisk that does the rounds? The number of issues reintroduced in live after being fixed in Lamma are ridiculous. Also, do the developers do any form of peer code review? How does a bug like the Die 20 timer get through QA without being fixed? Seriously, I'm not being an asshole. As someone who is a software engineer for a company with a complex eco-system I'd love to know what the fuck goes on there. Yes we have version control yes we do peer reviews QA missed it because shit happens. (read into that and what happened recently and it will appear as a word about being under...ssss...) Software complexity...yes this is a problem. KISS was not something that was followed at points during the long history of DDO. We pay for those sins constantly. So many times good intentions turn into something else evil.


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Gringo Abbot Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 881 Location: Prague, Europe Joined: Nov 22^nd, 2011 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #84 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:02pm	Print Post
	btw where are all those white knights on motherforums? havent seen any long time - thats pretty strange


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iliveyourdream13 Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 1521 Joined: Oct 8^th, 2013	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #85 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:13pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:02pm: Yes we have version control yes we do peer reviews QA missed it because shit happens. (read into that and what happened recently and it will appear as a word about being under...ssss...) Software complexity...yes this is a problem. KISS was not something that was followed at points during the long history of DDO. We pay for those sins constantly. So many times good intentions turn into something else evil. If QA is where you expect to catch software flaws you're doing it wrong. A QA department is the most over-rated methodology for catching software flaws ever. The best QA does is user verification testing. Tooling has long surpassed the point where you should have automated testing firing through every known code path and reporting out the results. I can only imagine your cyclomatic complexity score.


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Arkat Chonus Christ Offline Hola Bienvenido Posts: 12345 Location: Wyoming Joined: Jul 13^th, 2009 Gender:	Had to do it... Reply #86 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:49pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 7:16am: As for afford? www.infinitecrisis.com https://www.infinitecrisis.com/forums/showthread.php?10807-Hi-Welcome&p=91710#po...

	Stand on hills of long-forgotten yesterdays... Looking for a sign that the Universal Mind has written you into the Passion Play.
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KilgoreTrout Dragon Raider Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 214 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #87 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:28pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:02pm: Yes we have version control yes we do peer reviews QA missed it because shit happens. (read into that and what happened recently and it will appear as a word about being under...ssss...) Software complexity...yes this is a problem. KISS was not something that was followed at points during the long history of DDO. We pay for those sins constantly. So many times good intentions turn into something else evil. I've been in this position before. Software quality drops, everyone is overworked and stressed so people start making even more stupid mistakes. You're client base is starting to get restless and nobody feels good when their work is being criticized all the time. People get a bit half-arsed because that is just human nature. Management needs to realize that some sort of critical mass has been reached and it isn't business as usual. You need to get a trunk branch working as it is now, give all the engineers a Friday family day and long weekend to reset. Then implement a new feature freeze and spend one iteration just working on quality of life fixes while artists can start working on the airship and Epic 3BC stuff. You don't even need to fix the big stuff. Get as much of the low hanging fruit fixes sorted as possible. Little one or two hour fixes here and there that add up over a two or three week sprint so you have a huge whack of stuff to get customers back on your side. Seeing a bug list halve in size is awesome for the morale of everyone. You'll find developers not forgetting to merge shit from the bug fix branches to trunk as frequently as well, I guarantee it. Then after that take another break. Give everyone a Friday afternoon off and on Monday start working on those features. You'll be amazed at how quickly people will catch up with the "lost" iteration. Your customers will be happier, devs will be happier and you'll find that happy customers are willing to spend more cash. Anyway, enough of this.
	« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:29pm by KilgoreTrout »

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majmalphunktion Major Motherfucking Malphunktion Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 283 Joined: May 20^th, 2011	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #88 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm	Print Post
	It is not that really. Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC. For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Unlike something that you can tie a ribbon and version off, MMO's stay live. They have to always be backwards compatable. You cannot break legacy. These kinds of things stop us from doing 'the right thing'. We know how to fix say, handwraps. But to fix it, and version successfully, and not break people, or now god forbid support two types of handwraps...it's ROI. Some investments are just not worth the pain. Sadly there are many of these warts now in DDO. And maybe there is an argument that there were times that we should have been more aggressive about revamping things, killing others, exc. Now take all of that, apply shared scripting that the ancients used, and attempt to untangle the web. Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. It's cool, QA is used to the hate. We still have your back. You have no idea how much pain we spare you from. Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations.


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rest One Man Wolfpack Offline Posts: 7223 Joined: Aug 13^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #89 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:03pm	Print Post
	I thought everything was thoroughly planned at Turbine WELL in advance.


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ILoveExploits Horoluth Raider Offline I Love Exploits! Posts: 2157 Location: piking @ work Joined: Oct 31^st, 2013 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #90 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:05pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: It is not that really. Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC.� For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Unlike something that you can tie a ribbon and version off, MMO's stay live. They have to always be backwards compatable. You cannot break legacy. These kinds of things stop us from doing 'the right thing'. We know how to fix say, handwraps. But to fix it, and version successfully, and not break people, or now god forbid support two types of handwraps...it's ROI. Some investments are just not worth the pain. Sadly there are many of these warts now in DDO. And maybe there is an argument that there were times that we should have been more aggressive about revamping things, killing others, exc. Now take all of that, apply shared scripting that the ancients used, and attempt to untangle the web. Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. It's cool, QA is used to the hate. We still have your back. You have no idea how much pain we spare you from. Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations. Maj, seriously now the lag is 50% of the problem in this game. Every time we have a new pack we have the freezing lag of death. I ran the raids 1 time each and i have no intention to play it again cos the lag. Why the crippling lag in EVERY NEW PACK? Most of the ppl just give up to try it cos the lag...
	« Last Edit: Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:05pm by ILoveExploits »
	Dear players, The D&D rules you were familiar with were too simple to understand, so we're continuing our move away from them to needlessly confusing subsystems that will make your play experience less fun and invalidate old builds and loot. We hope you have fun working out what the fuck MRR, PRR, MP, SP, RP, CL, MCL and all the other bullshit we made up whilst drunk means. Love, People who don't know how to fix their own mistakes cleanly
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Shadehater Dropbear Awareness Society Offline Smite Stupid! Posts: 2174 Joined: May 6^th, 2012	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #91 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:05pm	Print Post
	Sometimes door is a mushroom


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NOTpopejubal Epic Poster Offline I Love Drama! Posts: 4096 Location: Let go or get dragged. Joined: Apr 17^th, 2013 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #92 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:17pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: It is not that really. Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC.� For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Unlike something that you can tie a ribbon and version off, MMO's stay live. They have to always be backwards compatable. You cannot break legacy. These kinds of things stop us from doing 'the right thing'. We know how to fix say, handwraps. But to fix it, and version successfully, and not break people, or now god forbid support two types of handwraps...it's ROI. Some investments are just not worth the pain. Sadly there are many of these warts now in DDO. And maybe there is an argument that there were times that we should have been more aggressive about revamping things, killing others, exc. Now take all of that, apply shared scripting that the ancients used, and attempt to untangle the web. Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. It's cool, QA is used to the hate. We still have your back. You have no idea how much pain we spare you from. Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations. I'd be cool with giving up all of my old handwraps to get a new Handwrap-weapon that works right. I know I'm not your only constituent, but I just wanted to share my opinion.


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Hathorian Waterworks Kobold Offline blah Posts: 166 Joined: Feb 23^rd, 2014 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #93 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:26pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 12:02pm: Yes we have version control yes we do peer reviews QA missed it because shit happens. (read into that and what happened recently and it will appear as a word about being under...ssss...) Software complexity...yes this is a problem. KISS was not something that was followed at points during the long history of DDO. We pay for those sins constantly. So many times good intentions turn into something else evil. It does sound like you are seriously understaffed. QA 'department' of 1?


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Flav Vault Frog Offline One Frog to Rule them All! Posts: 9961 Location: Land of the Frogs Joined: Aug 29^th, 2010 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #94 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:29pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: It is not that really. Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC.� For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Unlike something that you can tie a ribbon and version off, MMO's stay live. They have to always be backwards compatable. You cannot break legacy. These kinds of things stop us from doing 'the right thing'. We know how to fix say, handwraps. But to fix it, and version successfully, and not break people, or now god forbid support two types of handwraps...it's ROI. Some investments are just not worth the pain. Sadly there are many of these warts now in DDO. And maybe there is an argument that there were times that we should have been more aggressive about revamping things, killing others, exc. Now take all of that, apply shared scripting that the ancients used, and attempt to untangle the web. Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. It's cool, QA is used to the hate. We still have your back. You have no idea how much pain we spare you from. Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations. I was going to say take a cue from Telco... our system upgrades are fully backward compatible ( when we don't fail at catching The Bug they makes them backward incompatible ). But you nailed the heart of the matter : ROI. So for the unwashed masses of the Vaulties : It means that in the 7 year old Spaghetti that the DDO code is nothing will get fixed unless it's really worth ( financially speaking ) to fix it. Personally I have no problem with that, I have to deal with fucking bugs all day long ( or broken hardware ).

	Yes my avatar is an Hermine eating a Greenland Lemming for brunch.
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Booooga Dragon Raider Offline Drama? What's drama? Posts: 258 Location: In teh nose Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #95 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:34pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: It is not that really. Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC.� For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Unlike something that you can tie a ribbon and version off, MMO's stay live. They have to always be backwards compatable. You cannot break legacy. These kinds of things stop us from doing 'the right thing'. We know how to fix say, handwraps. But to fix it, and version successfully, and not break people, or now god forbid support two types of handwraps...it's ROI. Some investments are just not worth the pain. Sadly there are many of these warts now in DDO. And maybe there is an argument that there were times that we should have been more aggressive about revamping things, killing others, exc. Now take all of that, apply shared scripting that the ancients used, and attempt to untangle the web. Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. It's cool, QA is used to the hate. We still have your back. You have no idea how much pain we spare you from. Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations. If lag is your main concern, why the hell do you make new quests a la "every encounter on elite is a guaranteed red alert?"


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JustOneGuy Korthos Resident Offline Posts: 28 Joined: Jul 7^th, 2013	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #96 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 3:55pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: Some of the things suggested, automated code checking exc. are awesome for our new game...and this does exist on IC.� For this thing, the 7+ years of who knows how many toes have been in the code pool. I doubt HAL 9000 could see down all the rabbit holes of a 7 year old MMO by any company. Oh, it can, it's just pointless to do it. It's going to spit out a list of problems about three times as long as your codebase, if you're lucky, and you'll spend 80% of your time just sanitizing your code to meet the norms of the automated tool..which might find a few end cases, but equally might break something that was accidentally working right (sometimes two bugs make a right). It's a horrendous effort to add something like that to a large, mature code base, and it takes a long time before you start to get to the benefits of it.


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Meat-Head 53%Moron57%Misunderstood Offline Why am I reading crap on this forum? Posts: 12345 Location: Oregon Joined: Dec 5^th, 2011 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #97 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 4:01pm	Print Post
	Booooga wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 10:51am: No... my eyes... what the... Nice costume for Jerry on the far left. I didn't know he shaved his beard.

	A half-dozen boss Vaulties donated generously with real money to my classroom during a fundraiser in May 2015 to get poor kids books to read. I won't forget that. They know who they are, and they freaking rule. Disavowed wrote on Apr 19^th, 2016 at 1:51pm: Once you meat your personal goal you might want to give that some consideration. Artorias wrote on Feb 10^th, 2016 at 2:15pm: Good grief Meat, you're hopeless. You would label the simple act of taking a shit as someone obeying the divine law of nature to leave a proof of existence.
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Meli Titan Demolisher Offline Posts: 397 Joined: Jan 30^th, 2014	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #98 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 4:04pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: Lag is the hands down biggest deal right now. It has a refocus on it...again. We have found some things, that again were designed poorly by the ancients that we can fix and hopefully help in raids, and big ass party situations. Oh wow... this is great news that it's got new attention. Because of lag zoning is becoming a big issue for me now when it never was before....


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FakeStrake Puppy Farmer Offline I Love Drama, Derailment and Duping! Posts: 1584 Location: Inferno side Joined: Jul 5^th, 2012 Gender:	Re: hotfix 3.19 Reply #99 - Mar 20^th, 2014 at 4:09pm	Print Post
	majmalphunktion wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 2:55pm: Why does it get missed. Sheer numbers usually. I have a few, you have many. You find the edge cases or the thing missed. 20000 vs the few. Wow, the DDO population is lower than I thought Unless Maj missed a "0"


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