FranOhmsford wrote on May 29^th, 2016 at 6:22pm:


There is no wrong fighting style for a cleric. They cover some bases with Silver Flame and Lord of Blades, but there should be more deity choices IMO. In any case, insisting that all clerics should be sword and board is retarded.

(Not that there's much point in a melee caster these days, but I have fond memories of solo healing raids and also being able contribute ~9/10 of the what the "proper" melee classes were able to put out in DPS.)

5 Foot Step wrote on May 29^th, 2016 at 11:25am:


Looks like he posted Vanhooger posted his build:

15clr/4pal/1ftr Intimitank

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/475717-Legendary-Tank

Alex DeLarge wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 7:12am:

I went +1 Ftr -1 Pal, I needed the feat.

But it's not a build I'd repeat, very low DPS.  Very hard to die, sure, but you need 2-5x as much time to get through a quest.  Not worth it.

FranOhmsford wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:15pm:

This is a symptom of your problem, but not the root.

FranOhmsford wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:15pm:

This is close to the root of your problem.

The character best suited to the role of tank should perform that role when it helps the party.  The role of tank has rarely been the domain of Paladin or Fighter.  This isn't something new since epic destinies.  Before TRs, there were great Cleric intimitanks for HoX/VoD.  Since then, the role of tank has been well served by Ranger/Paladin combos in Chronoscope, Brabak had a good 14Pal/6Ftr build for LoB, and Monk dominant builds have often been great tanks.

The point is that the best contributor for particular roles in quests is a moving target and has been a a moving target from one update to another for always because Turbine changes the rules more often than Jerry changes his underwear.  The best self hjealer isn't always a cleric, the best crowd control might not be an arcane, the best DPS isn't always a martial class.

Your problem is your expectation that DDO classes should perform as their DnD archetypes.  This prevents you from accepting that your builds won't perform as they would if the archetypes were the reality.

Embrace the way Warlocks work and enjoy it while it lasts.  Stop worrying about Paladins and Fighters not currently being the optimal tank setup for some content.

TR a character into one of FFS's builds using an Iconic class, run it to cap, advance some epic destinies while you're at it, and experience playing the game as it is without trying to force your class archetypes onto DDO.

OldCoaly wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 10:11pm:
Indeed.  Keep the boss attention on me while others DPS is the tank role, and that doesn't matter if you are ranged kiting or standing still.

FranOhmsford wrote on May 29^th, 2016 at 2:30am:

Well, I'm glad you didn't take it as a personal attack.

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This I don't really understand. Are you saying you struggle to read the descriptions of two abilities (either enhancement or destiny) and understand how one impacts/boosts the other? I can see where this might be harder for some people when it comes to enhancements since you can pull things together from up to 10 different trees (1 racial, 9 class). However, with destinies I would think this would be considerably easier since you can only have one destiny active at a time and, at most, 4 twists of fate. And from what I've observed, the twisted abilities mostly stand on their own meaning they don't boost anything in your active destiny, though something in your active destiny may create conditions where the twisted ability comes into play more often. One example of this is if you're in Shiradi and have Sense Weakness (from Fury) twisted, then Nerve Venom can make the mobs helpless and this enables you to do more damage to them via Sense Weakness. That kind of stuff is pretty limited, though.

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I don't have characters that use Blitz. In fact, I've only had one that did. So, to me this is a fair criticism of Blitz. Otherwise, active abilities are one of the things that makes the game fun. Cooldown timers are necessary to limit resource availability (specifically the resource of active abilities) in order to make you choose when to use them and when not. I'll give you that I'm not a fan of stacks of this or that, either, and that they are a system you have to learn and they are unique to each destiny that uses stacks. So, that would mean there are at least four different systems within destinies that use stacks (Divine Crusader, Exalted Angel, Grandmaster of Flowers, and Legendary Dreadnaught). I think Draconic has a stack system in it, too, but I don't recall with any certainty. Now, that all said, the only ones worth anything are Divine Crusader, Grandmaster, and Legendary Dreadnaught. The other two are basically worthless. So, why bother yourself with learning them?

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Here again, you are not alone and you are not special. I only have three characters that you could consider to have their destinies "done", where "done" means they have all the Fate points and twists they want/need and their preferred destiny|destinies are max'd. All my other characters still have lots of work to do. However, with the exception of one of those characters, I have parked all of them. The reason they're parked is simply because of the amount of time required to get anything done on each of them. I have less time to play than I did a few years ago and there is a lot more experience to earn in the game now than there was then. Most of those characters really got parked when the level cap went to 25 and I saw the effort required to eke out the last bits of power from the destiny system, and they remain parked due to time constraints.


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Ok. I'll go with "paradigm shift".


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Only because your dps is low. I've noticed that on my characters who have low dps, I need to focus on casters first. So, I've stopped building that way.

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They haven't made the game appreciably more difficult. What they did do is require people to use some tactics and thought again, which we had all gotten lazy about and were accustomed to just steamrolling the mobs. When I'm soloing,  I go a bit slower and actually take time to inspect champions to see what their buffs are. I also make sure I have some kind of ranged attack so I can pull things to me one at a time. Of course, that works for the older content where you can actually do that. In newer content, this isn't possible as much, but I'm not generally trying to solo that content.


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Once again, you are not alone and you are not special. I've done only three or four epic reincarnations and three of them happened during the time when you could get right back to cap by relogging after getting back to 20th, but before leaving the reincarnation bridge place. As for heroic past lives, I haven't focused on them really, either. I have one character with a druid past life and four ranger past lives. Most of the rest of my characters have either one or two past lives, each character has different past lives from every other character, and the past lives are all of the class that matches the character's current class. The only other exception to that is the flavor character I created a while ago that was centered while using longswords. He has one monk, one ranger, and one fighter past life, and he is working on another ranger past life, but I've completely abandoned the original idea for the build because it was terrible, much like your turn-spec'd cleric.


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Yeah, well nobody's perfect. And this post of yours that I'm responding to does give me some hope both that I'll understand the way you think better and maybe actually be able to help you in some way.

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I know you say you're not the only one, but you seem to act like it in spite of your protestations to the contrary.


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Yes. I would and I have. The fact is, as others have said, you cannot fix a broken mechanic. You cannot make something to not suck when it simply inherently sucks. The fact is that a charisma-based cleric sucks. Should it be this way? No. Turn undead should be useful. The fact is that it is not and you're better off accepting that fact and abandoning making that a focus of your build. There's no reason why you can't still make turn undead work for you on weaker undead, while still improving your character's dps, utility, and survivability. Other people have made the point that it's pointless using turn undead on weaker undead since the party can mow those down anyway. However, I would argue that if the cleric can mow down a swath of undead using turn undead, then the party can get to work taking down the more powerful (and more dangerous) undead faster than they could otherwise. Personally, I like having a lot of turn undead uses per day, but I like using them to do healing bursts instead of actually turning undead.

I have had several characters that sucked. The most prominent is that longsword-using, centered monk-multiclass. Another one, more recently, was going to be a 12 wizard/5 cleric/3 fighter. That character's dps was so low that it was boring. I actually managed to get it to 10th level before I parked it. Then I LR'd it into 12 wizard/6 bard/2 fighter using SWF and spells/SLA's. It was more fun and I managed to get it to 20th or 21st levels,  but it's dps in epics is terrible and so I've parked it for now. It'll get TR'd again  when I'm ready to dust it off.

The point being there are some build ideas you can come up with that look on paper like they should be fun and effective and yet, when the rubber meets the road, they aren't. Turn-spec'd clerics are one of those.


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Well, I'll agree that it's a shame that artificer hasn't had its enhancement trees updated, yet. I'm looking forward to that, too. From my observations, it seems like rogue mechanics are better suited to using a great crossbow rather than a repeater. They get a lot more raw damage  from them, better criticals, and more sneak dice. On the other hand, artificers seem better suited to repeaters because they have extra damage from their rune arm and there are several repeaters with useful/interesting proc effects, such as Epic Doublecross Bow (neg levels). These are things that are more effective with a greater rate of fire, while the rogue's stuff are better with a lower rate of fire so you can hit harder. (Plus, great crossbows can knock enemies down, which is very handy.) Both benefit from ranger past lives.


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Well, I'll try to keep this in mind when I read questions posted by you. Personally, I don't struggle to read the wiki and memorize/organize the information available there. In fact, when I used to play Magic: The Gathering (I quit playing just after Tempest was released in 1997) I had every card released up to that point fully memorized: casting cost, type (instant, enchantment, etc), color, attack/defense (if it had those stats), what its abilities were (or what it did if it was not a creature), and what expansion|s it came from.


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The point is that turn-spec'd clerics are not viable builds. It's too narrow a niche, based on a broken and mostly useless mechanic, and these facts are what sucks the fun out of those builds. Should the niche be less narrow? Sure. I think it would be great if turn undead were more useful. Clearly, the developers don't know how to fix it without making it ridiculously over-powered because if they knew how, then I am sure they would've made those changes long ago. The fact is that nobody can make a turn-spec'd cleric that also has worthwhile dps that can be effective from first through 30th levels. Can someone make a cleric capable of turning undead at 30th level? Sure. And that's about all it'll be able to do. Boring!


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The thing is there is no reason you can't make a fun and viable cleric according to your preferred archetype. However, that is not the only archetype that makes sense nor should it be the only one available to people.

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The problem is that if you'd give up on some of the broken ideas you've got and just accept that those choices lead to ineffective characters that are not fun to play, then you'd be able to get into groups that are perfectly capable of running epic elite quests. Frank's line about "play to the victory conditions" is spot-on and an excellent observation. Making a turn-spec'd cleric is not playing to the victory conditions. Just as my making a monk-multiclass that could stay centered while wielding longswords was not playing to the victory conditions. I actually spent three lives investigating whether I could make the build work or not. I also spent time planning a fourth life to see if there was anything I could learn from the first three that would make the fourth better. As you can see, since that character is now 15 ranger/3 fighter/2 rogue, I could not and have consigned the build to the scrap heap. In my opinion, it's absolutely worth building weird characters like that and trying to make them work - even if you do it over multiple lives. However, you've got to be able to draw lessons from your experiences and recognize when the build is just not possible.


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First, 10% experience is almost nothing. In that quest, you're only talking about roughly  4k experience. There is so much experience in the game now that 4k is nothing. It's so insignificant that I don't care whether I die or not anymore, whereas I used to care very much (and even then it wasn't really significant). And cargo hold buffs? Really? I haven't used those in at least a couple of years. We had them on our ship for a while after the changeover, but we quickly got to the point where we were too lazy to go to the cargo to actually get those buffs. And when I realized nobody was using them, my coinpurse puckered up and refused to slaughter any more platinum for a lost cause.


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These are contradictory statements. If it takes forever, then he is not killing stuff fine.

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These are also contradictory statements. If he gets aggro'd by 3 or more mobs and can't manage to stay alive for a bit, then he isn't "on the cusp of being EE capable". I have a 25th level monk with 2 monk past lives who, when I used to play him, could manage to keep himself alive even when fully surrounded. Of course, he relied on those active abilities that you seem to dislike so much.

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A Scattering of Petals is a very effective AoE, actually, but it doesn't deal damage of course. I spent some time playing around with that Cauldron ability from the Henshin Mystic core. That's actually a really fun ability. It could be quite effective with some serious fire spellpower and the ability to survive being surrounded. I just haven't spent time trying to figure out how to make best use of that, in large part because it feels like I would be building the character around one ability (a la your turn-spec'd cleric) and that would limit the character's effectiveness and the fun of playing it.

Lelouch wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:58am:

No, I was thinking of the wrong thing and I edited that out of my post.

bob the builder wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:22am:


Fighters get Cleave and Great Cleave, Monks have to make do with Whirlwind Attack because Cleave/GtCleave are bugged with TWF!

Two Cleaves outright beats one!

Less Cooldown, More Damage!

Oh and Whirlwind Attack has a really annoying Glitch where you have to basically reset your character after use before you can start fighting again!
It's only about 1/2 a second but we all know what a DPS loss that is!





nowAvaultie wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:55am:


I still use the Cargo Buffs and I don't like dying anyway even if I didn't.

That +10% isn't the huge thing it was made out to be back before it became self only - I never cared if someone else died BUT I always cared if I died!

But I tend to try and maximise my XP from each run because I don't like multi-running quests - I'm not going to run Vol a second time on Heroic {Epic is a different story for obvious reasons} so I want to get the most out of the E-BB run.
A Guaranteed 10% XP loss in the traps is a pain - Rogue Hires aren't much use at stopping this either because you still have to get through the traps yourself to get them to the box!

nowAvaultie wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:55am:


Nothing contradictory about those statements.

The problem is your definition of "just fine" - Time to kill doesn't factor into it so long as the mob dies before I do!

nowAvaultie wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:55am:


Which is why I used the term "on the cusp" rather than saying he's viable in EEs!

He can cope in a group that sticks together because he rarely has more than 1 or at most two mobs on him {with 2 I can keep one stunned} - In a Zerg Group or Solo however he's got no hope!

nowAvaultie wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:55am:


The Ranged attacks in GMoF are pretty d@mn weak in my view - I don't know how to fit Spellpower into my gear and as a non-Henshin Monk I don't have any Enhancement Based Spellpower either so these do so little damage as to be worthless!

When you require 300+ Spellpower for an ability to be even close to viable there's a big problem!
This is why I don't like Divine Crusader as well!

You keep saying I shouldn't specialize so much and I also get told off for trying to do everything often {especially on Clerics} but how on Eberron do I fit 300+ Spellpower on to a Melee Monk?

FranOhmsford wrote on May 31^st, 2016 at 9:21pm:

That 10% was never as big as it was made out to be, even when there was no quest ransack or bravery bonus. And now with bravery bonus, it's not even noticeable. I don't die regularly, but the loss of 10% experience when I do get killed has never resulted in my having to re-run quests.


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No, the problem is your definition of "just fine". Seems to me you're basically winning a war of attrition with each single mob you fight. And with that being the case, you're not killing things "just fine" and you're definitely not "on the cusp" of being EE viable/capable.


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The fact you don't even know what A Scattering of Petals does is ... I seriously don't have words for it. Here, let me help you: It blinds the mobs around you for 6 seconds. It doesn't do damage and it isn't a ranged attack. The ranged ki attacks in GMoF are nice extra damage while you're running toward the next mob. Once you've engaged them in melee combat, why would you use them? I never said they were worthwhile abilities. However, since you have to take them to get to Drifting Lotus and Scattering of Petals, they're useful for pulling if you're soloing or for an extra bit of damage until you can close with the enemy and beat its brains in.

Oh wait, let me guess: You're not using Drifting Lotus. If you really can't see the usefulness in that ability, then you're probably beyond all help.

Also, I never said anything about how much spellpower Cauldron of Flame would require to make it 'viable'. I really don't know. I've never gone out of my way to boost my spellpower on my monk to try to find out. I only said that it was a fun ability when I have used it and I think it would be neat to be able to make extensive use of in a build. However, I don't think my monk is even mainly a Henshin monk anymore. Pretty sure I went back to Shintao for the majority spend of my AP.

On a different topic, I wish they would just make handwraps into single-handed weapons so that we could use two of them at the same time. It would be nice to be able to get a bunch of different effects on our attacks since monks attack so quickly.

Fran you are so fucking stupid. Please stop wasting this community's time if you aren't going to listen.

Roll a warlock. Copy someone's build and gear. Go solo some EEs. I could do it on a first life toon. You can to dude.

My pure dps TWF fighter is face tanking everything but Cat and Rakshasa in LE shroud atm. Those two we just range kite.

That includes Sor'jek, although it requires a healer.

Tanks are in a great spot atm. Much better than any time since CITW came out.

You like many other people talk a lot, know very little, and are argumentative. It's why you are fucking stupid. I'm not going to laugh at you, but some people might. I'm not going to feel bad for your, but some people might. You have held yourself to knee-deep game experience for some reason and not stepped up to challenges the game provides. Go fuck yourself. Challenge yourself. And shut that yap!!!!!!!!

FranOhmsford wrote on Jun 1^st, 2016 at 11:26am:

No, these are not "utterly useless". Just because you've elected not to exercise the imagination required to make use of  them is no one's fault but your own. Lily Petal is excellent for quickly and cheaply charging up EIN. Again, they're also useful as a little extra damage dealt to mobs while there is distance to cover before you can use your much stronger melee abilities on them.

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The problem with you is that you haven't even bothered to take it, try it out, see how it works, and then make an informed decision on whether it's useful or not. Even if it gives the duration for which they're knocked down, that doesn't necessarily tell you how useful the ability is. Anyway, in my experience, it's 3 to 6 seconds. Some mobs simply get up faster than others, just like characters do.

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The point is to blind the mobs so they have a 50% chance to miss you. Generally, the mob you're actively trying to kill is stunned and isn't running anywhere. Who cares what the other ones do for 6 seconds? And even if you finish the first mob and move onto a mobile, blind mob, just open with a stun and beat them down. No running after them required.

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Wraps should be made into one-handed weapons because they're used while two weapon fighting. When I first started playing a monk, I expected to be able to equip two of them because logically you're not wrapping both fists with one very long piece of cloth. Instead, you would use two pieces of cloth. They definitely shouldn't be treated like staves. Not just because conceptually they're nothing like staves, but also because Turbine would just screw it up. Remember: a mushroom is a door. We don't want wraps becoming staves.

FranOhmsford wrote on Jun 1^st, 2016 at 11:26am:

No. You're wary of things you don't find familiar. This is why you're playing a turn-specced cleric. It's why you're finding ways to argue against trying out Drifting Lotus.

Turn undead looks familiar, and you're confusing that with good. Probably because a learning curve for you is no gentle slope. And you probably come to DDO for a break rather than yet another thing today that takes effort. Just like millions of people treat TV.

It's fine if you don't want to try new things. Here's the magic phrase that gets people off your back: "It looks like work to me". You might recognize it as the magic phrase Strake uses. Familiar! Here's how it would look in a sentence: "Maybe Drifting Lotus is good, but getting it and trying it out looks like work to me."